We don’t agree on facts, making reasoning impossible. I think that fascism is far worse than liberalism, while you think they’re comparable challenges. I see no benefits for fascism, you think it’s an opportunity.
“Cut a liberal, a fascists bleeds,” yet liberals and leftists died side by side in the good fight, WWII, and fights against fascist governments in the global south. Many other liberals and leftists stood by the sidelines as well.
“Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism,” yet the Cold War was, in practical terms, a struggle between empires with blue and red excuses.
“The US has no left wing party and is far right by global standards,” yet most parliamentary systems see leftists in power when they form coalitions with the more left leaning liberals. More often than leftists, liberals or even the far right are able to form majority coalitions by themselves. The US is also to the left of most countries, not because it isn’t a corrupt plutocracy, but because most other countries are more dysfunctional liberal democracies, or fascist theocracies already.
Every county followed a similar strategy of increasing neoliberalism during the last 50 years, until every country started abandoning free trade in favor of nationalist policies following the financial crisis. Neoliberalism is on a downturn, yet many leftists haven’t realized it because they equate it with capitalism. Capitalism has continued its steady erosion of material conditions, but not because of neoliberalism. The Marxist lens is not designed with nationalism in mind. It’s a big fucking deal as fascism grows, and y’all don’t appreciate it.
I don’t call myself a socialist even though I want the closest thing to communism we can achieve. I don’t call myself a liberal even though I see many constructs like rights, free expression, or democratic representation as useful. I will be honest with what I believe, but I am wary of any political identity. Identity is not ideology. It can easily overtake principles and focus movements towards existence rather than achievements.
You’re distorting my words. So either you don’t understand, you didn’t read, or you don’t care.
I’m not equating liberalism and fascism. They’re not the same. What I’m saying is that liberalism leads to fascism. And thus, blaming leftists for not voting for liberals is dishonest.
The fault is not on the leftist. It is on the liberals. And voting liberals will not save you from fascism. It merely makes you an accomplice of the liberals, because they will claim your vote to support their policies.
Your whole argumentation is based on the fear of fascism. That’s barely better than fascism that relies on the fear of immigrants.
Blame is an overrated concept. It only serves an instrumental purpose. It can help us make better predictions of how people will behave in the future, but it has no inherent value. Mechanically, liberal shittyness and their contributions to rising fascism means we can predict how much support they’ll give us. It shows what matters to them and the calculus behind their actions.
Often they make their imprudent decisions because they have an inadequate understanding of the human ecosystem. They don’t consider how the economic suffering caused by deregulation and policies that favor the rich are the system’s biggest existential threat. Politicians worry about their political existence instead of the system’s existence. When fascism is at the gates, preservation of the system matters more to their personal existence.
This is probably why you think leftists have a bargaining advantage, and they do. The left can allow liberalism to suffer, but they’ll suffer with it. It’s a game of chicken, a gamble, and not the only tool the left has. They could, and this might shock you, focus more on local politics and primary elections. They don’t need to play chicken to get a leg up on liberals; they can win primaries and build leftist sentiment while doing so.
The DSA has 3 current members in congress, who represent ~2.25 million Americans. You might scoff at this small number in the grand scheme of things, but you also might not know how tiny their actual membership is. They have never had more than 100k active members. They’ve elected officials while being a similar size to lemmy, this tiny corner of the internet. And those are just current DSA congress members; there are 3 other former members in office because of DSA support.
Leftists often believe electoral politics are a waste of time, yet they’re ignorant of how much it has affected their current movement. Obama’s ACA might have sucked, but it made single payer a significant part of the conversation. With no ACA, Bernie wouldn’t have basically won the 2016 primary, a presidential run that made socialism a far more popular idea in America. Current DSA Representatives have promoted leftist ideas and positions more than they’ve affected votes in congress. They’re a handful of votes, yet they’ve provided a dissenting voice to liberal slop.
Most of the people who vote for DSA members are left leaning liberals; liberals who have played a greater role in promoting leftism than any proud anti-voter I’ve ever met in person. I’m not saying you need to join the DSA and volunteer for their candidates. Just spend a few hours of your year voting.
Even if you still don’t vote, VOLUNTEER IN YOUR COMMUNITY FFS. Local politics, electoral or otherwise, are the backbone of every single successful movement. Provide services to those in need. Follow cops around with guns. Educate people about politics. Do the leg work to improve lives. That’s what earns trust and support. Providing
Sorry, I forgot you weren’t American. The point still stands. Vote and get involved in your country’s government. Ally with the relative center in electoral politics; that’s how it fundamentally works for leftists. Until the left is a majority, you will need to ally with liberals. The executive leader will always be a compromise with the center, even if they’re from the left. That’s why voting is only the starting point. Visible dissension alone is powerful, so make yourself hard to ignore.
I provided an in depth essay, but “vote Biden or else we’re doomed” is still the bottom line. The jabs helped me determine how valuable the essay would be. If you were a full on troll, you’d have crashed the conversation when I showed disrespect. More importantly, it’s fun to be sassy :)
In France there are two turns for the president election. The first turn usually has many parties, but because there are only two in the second turn, the first vote is often tactical. You vote for the one you prefer that you think has a chance at the second turn. This means there are a lot of negociations before the election between the parties, alliances and formation of large parties. The left is often divided, and thus often lose.
But there is a second election for the parliament. Unfortunately it’s still a vote for one person over two turns, but it’s regionalized, so depending on the demographics it can change.
So the situation is not as dire in France I’d say. The right is still liberal in France and not yet fully fascist. And even if we had a far right president, there would be another round for the parliament where the far right showed it’s complete incompetency.
The problem today is that the liberals think they can play with the fire and get away with it. And that they are slowly turning fascist themselves. They must come back to talking with the left rather than with the far right.
So indeed we must talk to the liberals at some point, but in my opinion they must lose the power first to get back to reason, and they must do it before our democracy is too weak for it to be dangerous in the hands of the far right.
If what you’re telling me is right, the fight to save the US was lost like 20 years ago. Now you’re left scooping the flood. The real problem is that the republican party is rotten to the core, that money matters, and media are used for propaganda. Will any of this be worked on in the next term? I doubt it. So in 4 years will it be back to square 1?
Honestly, your system sounds very similar to many US states, including mine. We call them open primaries, and infuriating shit can happen. For our recent US Senate primary, this guy boosted a fascist nut who has no chance in this blue state, just so he didn’t have to compete against another Democrat. Him and the other Democrat honestly aren’t too different on policy, but him increasing fascist turnout in a statewide race probably impacted local races in a negative way.
One thing to remember about US states is that many are the size of countries. Our biggest state has nearly 2/3rds the population of France, beating out Poland and Canada in size. You can drive for 10 hours in one direction at highway speeds without leaving certain states. Our least populous state has a higher population than the smallest EU member. Alaska, the largest state by land area, is not only bigger than any EU member, it’s 40% the size of the entire EU. States in America are comparable to counties in Europe, and the US itself is comparable to the entire EU.
California’s governor, Gavin Newsom, is a closer comparison to Macron than Biden. Newsom is a slimy liberal that a ton of Democrats dislike, with Biden probably being more trustworthy than him.
When people complain about Biden, not only do they ignore that the president is the most dangerous person on earth, but they don’t understand that he’s been the most left wing president since Jimmy Carter from the late 70s. This isn’t a good thing, as Carter himself was right wing compared to his party, especially on economic issues. We’ve had only neoliberal or fascist presidents for half a century, with Biden moving away from neoliberalism in many respects.
Biden was only preferable to the actual billionaires in the 2020 Democratic primary, yet he’s been better than I expected. The left didn’t turn out in that primary, and don’t seem to understand that they missed their chance to pick a better president. Being against Biden this year is even worse than in 2020, as Trump is more dangerous now than back then, while Biden has been better in office than the left should have expected. It’s a repeat of that election only the choice is more obvious, which is why it frustrates me that this is a conversation. I get why it is, but it’s still ridiculous.
![Accelerationist [RULE]](https://files.catbox.moe/052f42.jpeg){kind=link}
We don’t agree on facts, making reasoning impossible. I think that fascism is far worse than liberalism, while you think they’re comparable challenges. I see no benefits for fascism, you think it’s an opportunity.
“Cut a liberal, a fascists bleeds,” yet liberals and leftists died side by side in the good fight, WWII, and fights against fascist governments in the global south. Many other liberals and leftists stood by the sidelines as well.
“Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism,” yet the Cold War was, in practical terms, a struggle between empires with blue and red excuses.
“The US has no left wing party and is far right by global standards,” yet most parliamentary systems see leftists in power when they form coalitions with the more left leaning liberals. More often than leftists, liberals or even the far right are able to form majority coalitions by themselves. The US is also to the left of most countries, not because it isn’t a corrupt plutocracy, but because most other countries are more dysfunctional liberal democracies, or fascist theocracies already.
Every county followed a similar strategy of increasing neoliberalism during the last 50 years, until every country started abandoning free trade in favor of nationalist policies following the financial crisis. Neoliberalism is on a downturn, yet many leftists haven’t realized it because they equate it with capitalism. Capitalism has continued its steady erosion of material conditions, but not because of neoliberalism. The Marxist lens is not designed with nationalism in mind. It’s a big fucking deal as fascism grows, and y’all don’t appreciate it.
I don’t call myself a socialist even though I want the closest thing to communism we can achieve. I don’t call myself a liberal even though I see many constructs like rights, free expression, or democratic representation as useful. I will be honest with what I believe, but I am wary of any political identity. Identity is not ideology. It can easily overtake principles and focus movements towards existence rather than achievements.
You’re distorting my words. So either you don’t understand, you didn’t read, or you don’t care.
I’m not equating liberalism and fascism. They’re not the same. What I’m saying is that liberalism leads to fascism. And thus, blaming leftists for not voting for liberals is dishonest.
The fault is not on the leftist. It is on the liberals. And voting liberals will not save you from fascism. It merely makes you an accomplice of the liberals, because they will claim your vote to support their policies.
Your whole argumentation is based on the fear of fascism. That’s barely better than fascism that relies on the fear of immigrants.
Blame is an overrated concept. It only serves an instrumental purpose. It can help us make better predictions of how people will behave in the future, but it has no inherent value. Mechanically, liberal shittyness and their contributions to rising fascism means we can predict how much support they’ll give us. It shows what matters to them and the calculus behind their actions.
Often they make their imprudent decisions because they have an inadequate understanding of the human ecosystem. They don’t consider how the economic suffering caused by deregulation and policies that favor the rich are the system’s biggest existential threat. Politicians worry about their political existence instead of the system’s existence. When fascism is at the gates, preservation of the system matters more to their personal existence.
This is probably why you think leftists have a bargaining advantage, and they do. The left can allow liberalism to suffer, but they’ll suffer with it. It’s a game of chicken, a gamble, and not the only tool the left has. They could, and this might shock you, focus more on local politics and primary elections. They don’t need to play chicken to get a leg up on liberals; they can win primaries and build leftist sentiment while doing so.
The DSA has 3 current members in congress, who represent ~2.25 million Americans. You might scoff at this small number in the grand scheme of things, but you also might not know how tiny their actual membership is. They have never had more than 100k active members. They’ve elected officials while being a similar size to lemmy, this tiny corner of the internet. And those are just current DSA congress members; there are 3 other former members in office because of DSA support.
Leftists often believe electoral politics are a waste of time, yet they’re ignorant of how much it has affected their current movement. Obama’s ACA might have sucked, but it made single payer a significant part of the conversation. With no ACA, Bernie wouldn’t have basically won the 2016 primary, a presidential run that made socialism a far more popular idea in America. Current DSA Representatives have promoted leftist ideas and positions more than they’ve affected votes in congress. They’re a handful of votes, yet they’ve provided a dissenting voice to liberal slop.
Most of the people who vote for DSA members are left leaning liberals; liberals who have played a greater role in promoting leftism than any proud anti-voter I’ve ever met in person. I’m not saying you need to join the DSA and volunteer for their candidates. Just spend a few hours of your year voting.
Even if you still don’t vote, VOLUNTEER IN YOUR COMMUNITY FFS. Local politics, electoral or otherwise, are the backbone of every single successful movement. Provide services to those in need. Follow cops around with guns. Educate people about politics. Do the leg work to improve lives. That’s what earns trust and support. Providing
You really should stop with the ad hominem. I am irrelevant to the discussion because I’m not even a US citizen. I don’t live in the US.
Now this is a far better and more convincing argumentation than the “vote Biden or else we’re doomed” of the beginning.
Sorry, I forgot you weren’t American. The point still stands. Vote and get involved in your country’s government. Ally with the relative center in electoral politics; that’s how it fundamentally works for leftists. Until the left is a majority, you will need to ally with liberals. The executive leader will always be a compromise with the center, even if they’re from the left. That’s why voting is only the starting point. Visible dissension alone is powerful, so make yourself hard to ignore.
I provided an in depth essay, but “vote Biden or else we’re doomed” is still the bottom line. The jabs helped me determine how valuable the essay would be. If you were a full on troll, you’d have crashed the conversation when I showed disrespect. More importantly, it’s fun to be sassy :)
In France there are two turns for the president election. The first turn usually has many parties, but because there are only two in the second turn, the first vote is often tactical. You vote for the one you prefer that you think has a chance at the second turn. This means there are a lot of negociations before the election between the parties, alliances and formation of large parties. The left is often divided, and thus often lose.
But there is a second election for the parliament. Unfortunately it’s still a vote for one person over two turns, but it’s regionalized, so depending on the demographics it can change.
So the situation is not as dire in France I’d say. The right is still liberal in France and not yet fully fascist. And even if we had a far right president, there would be another round for the parliament where the far right showed it’s complete incompetency.
The problem today is that the liberals think they can play with the fire and get away with it. And that they are slowly turning fascist themselves. They must come back to talking with the left rather than with the far right.
So indeed we must talk to the liberals at some point, but in my opinion they must lose the power first to get back to reason, and they must do it before our democracy is too weak for it to be dangerous in the hands of the far right.
If what you’re telling me is right, the fight to save the US was lost like 20 years ago. Now you’re left scooping the flood. The real problem is that the republican party is rotten to the core, that money matters, and media are used for propaganda. Will any of this be worked on in the next term? I doubt it. So in 4 years will it be back to square 1?
Honestly, your system sounds very similar to many US states, including mine. We call them open primaries, and infuriating shit can happen. For our recent US Senate primary, this guy boosted a fascist nut who has no chance in this blue state, just so he didn’t have to compete against another Democrat. Him and the other Democrat honestly aren’t too different on policy, but him increasing fascist turnout in a statewide race probably impacted local races in a negative way.
One thing to remember about US states is that many are the size of countries. Our biggest state has nearly 2/3rds the population of France, beating out Poland and Canada in size. You can drive for 10 hours in one direction at highway speeds without leaving certain states. Our least populous state has a higher population than the smallest EU member. Alaska, the largest state by land area, is not only bigger than any EU member, it’s 40% the size of the entire EU. States in America are comparable to counties in Europe, and the US itself is comparable to the entire EU.
California’s governor, Gavin Newsom, is a closer comparison to Macron than Biden. Newsom is a slimy liberal that a ton of Democrats dislike, with Biden probably being more trustworthy than him.
When people complain about Biden, not only do they ignore that the president is the most dangerous person on earth, but they don’t understand that he’s been the most left wing president since Jimmy Carter from the late 70s. This isn’t a good thing, as Carter himself was right wing compared to his party, especially on economic issues. We’ve had only neoliberal or fascist presidents for half a century, with Biden moving away from neoliberalism in many respects.
Biden was only preferable to the actual billionaires in the 2020 Democratic primary, yet he’s been better than I expected. The left didn’t turn out in that primary, and don’t seem to understand that they missed their chance to pick a better president. Being against Biden this year is even worse than in 2020, as Trump is more dangerous now than back then, while Biden has been better in office than the left should have expected. It’s a repeat of that election only the choice is more obvious, which is why it frustrates me that this is a conversation. I get why it is, but it’s still ridiculous.