Yet another thinly veiled stealth lay-off by a technology company. Amazon’s cloud boss Matt “The Prat” Garman will indeed see some departures, as intended and desired. However, that first wave will be of their most talented, who feel confident they will land on their feet elsewhere, leaving those that simply cannot leave (yet) or those that will cozily under perform. When Amazon applies the inevitable followup reductions (subjectively based on their internal review process) to remove the latter, and the former buckle under the load or also leave, Amazon will be left with lower-middle talent at best.
The more I see of business “strategy” among this layer of “leadership”, the more I’m convinced it is just a game of Jenga with talent, resources, infrastructure, security, quality, etc; pulling out as many pieces as possible in the drive for short term/sighted gains until a company collapses under its own dysfunctional “efficiency” and “success”.
This is absolutely it. The C-suite and senior management are made up of sharp people. They absolutely know this will trigger an exodus and a large bag of fire-able workers. They don’t care that they’re likely to lose a bunch of talented, hardworking staff. Its all been accounted for. At worst the results of a mass exodus will only impact their bottom line in a few years. They just need this years numbers to look good and line to go up.
It’s the culmination of “next quarter is someone else’s problem”.
The mentality that the future is always someone else’s problem is proving to be the biggest weakness of capitalism and our species.
Don’t worry. They will.
That’s the intention behind that back to work decision.
That’s what I don’t get though, these people seem to be delusional in that they think that they’re a hard worker and looooove in person, so therefore every hard worker loves in person and the chaff will quit. Then they act shocked when their high performers largely leave to pursue remote or hybrid options. It’s such a glaring inability to see people different from them as having any value.
Yep. The best people will leave first because they have options. It’s called the dead sea effect
I appreciate that they clarified that “bad” employees aren’t always bad. I very firmly fit into the fourth category listed (avoids looking for jobs because it’s the worst) and would definitely get trapped pretty easily.
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You mean Amazon is bad to their workers?
Consequences aside, he has a totally valid point. They own the business, they are the boss, and they can decide. People might not like it, but in the end, it is their problem and people are free to change their job. People got a bit to comfortable lately and every single employee expects the company to be run just as they prefer. Even when you work fully remote, there are still people who find it really hard and stupid as they never get to see their collegues and spend the entire day just staring at the monitor. You will never make everyone happy, so why bother complaining. The decision has been made, take it or leave it.
Nobody is saying what they are doing is illegal. And complaining is what people do to vent, you don’t have to read it.
It’s seems par the course for Amazon to just treat employees as disposable, and they’ve burned so many regions’ working populations’ proverbial bridges that I recall LTT highlighting an article saying Amazon can’t find people to employ because they’ve already cycled through everyone.
Anecdotally, I’m suddenly getting recruiters from AWS asking to interview me, and it all makes sense now. They want to replace the remote workers with new people who don’t complain. Fuck that, and fuck them if they think people should be apathetic to this strategy.
The capitalist sits and laughs on their piles of gold while enjoying their immense power, one day in a not so distant future they will hold no power and their wealth will not save them from the righteous anger of the workers they once oppressed
What immense power? You can hand in your resignation and all that power, money and piles of gold suddenly mean nothing when you don’t have the basic component that makes the gears turn. Workers are also not oppressed, because workers can quit if it’s not fitting for them. Staying there by free will to take the shit in is not oppression… We already have very mobile workforce that basically does job jumping every 2 years, and people are having less and less issue with simply quitting. So what is exactly the problem for the worker, expect that they want to work in a company, but on THEIR terms, and not the company terms?
Not defending Amazon in any way, but I think the playing field is quite level right now between the employer and employees. Both are free to make decisions, both are free to work together or part ways. So I am not seeing an issue other than the worker wanting to control how the company is run.
Mmm boot. Tell me your opinions on the French or American revolutions next. No one was oppressed under a monarchy were they?
Guess we should all be unemployed not to be oppressed.
Do it during holiday season. Do it.
Engineering is a skilled trade. We need our own union like every other skilled labor group.
Depending on your country, that is the norm. Engineers here have at least 2 national unions to choose from, finance have a couple of unions, same with teachers, admin staff, etc. etc.
As usual, this is probably just US being victim of 'merican exceptionlism.
And they are smart enough to put us at the very bottom of the management ladder, even though we’re not actually management. That way we can’t legally unionize. In the U.S. at least.
That way we can’t legally unionize. In the U.S. at least.
This must vary state-by-state, or have exceptions, because I could name examples of them (but I would rather not dox myself).
It’s not every company, but that is what mine did. We’re “management” but we don’t manage anyone.
Classifying employees as management without having actual management duties is a violation of federal labor law. You might be owed back wages/overtime. Could be worth looking into. A class action lawsuit against a previous employer I had led to hundreds of employees getting checks for thousands of dollars, even after lawyers took their fee.
Some technical jobs can be legally classified exempt from overtime. That is different than being classified as management.
They just give us the PM title and call it a day. No court is going to take that seriously and allow a massive lawsuit.
Given how “business-friendly” the US has become, I imagine there are all sorts of loopholes that only work in favor of the corporation.
There doesn’t need to be loopholes anymore. The SC will just blatantly rule in favor of companies.
In case anyone has missed it, they’re done with loopholes, done with being sly and coy. They are saying the quiet parts, they are marching proudly, they are confident and unafraid. We need to make them afraid again.
The right wing and its corporate masters are done hiding in shadow. Loopholes and subterfuge are for chumps when you can just change the rules without consequence.
I agree. I’m in pre-sales working at an AWS partner and honestly our whole team is treated as dispensable.
I have been laid off from every job (5 in total) since the pandemic. We are a subhuman commodity. Companies that are hiring now are exploiting the market by offering lower salaries.
Meta and Amazon are in their hiring season and they’ll start their layoffs again next spring or summer. And somehow, everyone forgets this fucked up cycle keeps happening in perpetuum.
We need to stop being afraid of mentioning the U word. We need better protection and rights as employees.
At Amazon literally every employee is dispensable. They have a firing quota.
Edit: to be clear I’m talking about the Amazon divisions outside the warehouse. They make managers fire a certain percentage of people on a regular basis.
“Skilled labor” is such a bullshit concept
There are jobs that take weeks to learn, jobs that take years to learn, and there are even jobs that take a decade+ to learn. You ain’t putting the three-week old newbie in the latter two roles.
That’s true, but it devalues other labor which can be similarly/more difficult or skilled. I skimmed this article, but it seems to convey what I mean:
https://www.shrm.org/executive-network/insights/reshaping-narrative-time-retire-term-unskilled-laborI understand what people mean when they say “skilled labor” and I don’t think it’s intended negatively normally fwiw
For this kind of thing to stop, people need to get real. We need someone to take it for the team and crowbar this guy’s knees.
Words don’t have meaning to these people. Logic, Reasoning is beyond comprehension.
Aren’t we at a point finally where maybe after so much debating, arguing, compromising and negotiating that has fallen through that maybe a lick of violence is the answer?
I can tell you if we took a crowbar to at least 10 Executives, throw 5 CEOs out from the highest windows and entrap 20 middle managing power-tripping pricks. I’m sure this would be a huge U-Turn for these people.
Why commute to work when you can just become a terrorist and spend all your time in prison?
Well I guess in your world view, it’s okay for them to steal everything out from you both physically and mentally even if it’s illegal. But to do anything back, then it’s just unfair. Pffft…
You say that but that’s literally how we got all the ‘good’ stuff we enjoy as employees now, in the US at least. Guys wbacj then literally went to war against the bosses and physically forced them to the metaphorical table.
Do you get off work for Labor Day?
If you do… Maybe next year you should take that time to read up on the history of all of those luxuries (yes, luxuries. And when they’re gone you’ll realize how many you did have), and how we were able to obtain them.
Do you like weekends? Do you like the concept of the 8 hour work day? The concept of a minimum wage? People literally died for us to have these things enshrined in law.
If you don’t get off Labor Day, well…
If you want to look outside the US, have you heard of May Day (AKA International Workers Day)? Or even fucking Bastille Day if you want to really go back? Take a look at the bloody histories of these holidays when you have a chance.
This was literally the only way we got to where we are. And now those things people literally died for are being stripped away from us and we are doing nothing.
Boiling the entire worker’s rights movement down to bashing some CEO’s kneecaps in a parking garage
Sounds to me like you’re the one oversimplifying things here…
True, the post I responded to called for at least 10 execs:
I can tell you if we took a crowbar to at least 10 Executives, throw 5 CEOs out from the highest windows and entrap 20 middle managing power-tripping pricks. I’m sure this would be a huge U-Turn for these people.
Personally i think there’s a bit more to worker’s rights movements
I did not make that original comment, did I? Maybe you interpreted it as a call for violence, but my interpretation was using hyperbole to make a point. Though I would not have made it that way.
I named several holidays that exist to commemorate various worker’s rights movements (all of which have bloody histories). I’m not going to do the work for you and explain every single one of them, but you can easily go to the wiki pages and learn a ton of shit about it.
It is not the job of internet strangers to educate people. But if someone who wasn’t aware of the history of Labor Day decides to check out the wiki because I mentioned it in a comment, then that’s a win in my book.
As you can see, I responded to that comment. You seem to have at least some acknowledgement that maybe it wasn’t quite what you were going for and must therefore have been hyperbole. I took a more pessimistic view.
But yes, I’m aware some movements have violent elements to them. The ones we remember with reverence have other elements to them as well.
People literally died for us to have these things enshrined in law.
How many of those people were bosses?
He pointed to Amazon’s principle of “disagree and commit,” which is the idea that employees should debate and push back on each others ideas respectfully
That’s all fine and dandy for ending debate about a stupid roadmap feature, but “disagree and commit” is a different story when you’re asking people to spend 3 hours unpaid in a car everyday.
As a long time Amazon employee, disagree and commit essentially works like this:
Employee: “I’m not convinced this is the best way to do something”
Manager: “Noted, now stfu and do what I say”
This makes zero sense… If you’re a cloud company why can’t employees be in the cloud
Because real-estate is physical money.
as a client this this tells me they aren’t all that confident in their product
Them fixating on nerd asses in seats wasn’t creepy enough to sway you yet?
No they purport to sell cloud services, but require their cloud employees to be onsite.
But that’s something I don’t actually understand, since real estate would fall under the sunk cost fallacy. Ie, if you’ve invested in real estate, the cost is spent already, right? Whether someone comes in that building is irrelevant. The costs spent to maintain, heat, clean, power the buildings, on the other hand… It’s just not really obvious to me. Seems like fewer people would cost cheaper, no?
The cost is spent, but the offices are still assets on the balance sheet.
If demand for offices is lower then all companies that own offices will have to revalue theirs downwards. These impairments have a direct impact on the P&L of the company accounts. Better to force employees to use these assets (and pay their own costs to do so) than show a (greater) accounting loss.
If a company has a lot of money in assets and those assets are worth less than before, the valuation of the company drops. This should mean lower share prices, which is basically the only thing a company cares about.
The deals they had with various governments to get tax breaks if they built the office in their city are still a consideration. Amazon put governments of municipalities into a bidding war so they could have highly paid software engineers working in their city. They probably aren’t going to get those tax breaks any more if most of those offices are empty.
If you’re using that real estate as collateral for loans, it needs to maintain its value, or you’ll have to put up more collateral
I’m a manager at a large aerospace and defense company. We had a hybrid arrangement where most people (who didn’t have to touch hardware) could work from home a couple days a week. Most people seemed to think it was pretty reasonable. There really are benefits to in person collaboration, so some on site days seemed to make sense.
We recently moved to fully RTO, and I find it frustrating. It’s not a big deal personally - I live close and I’m older - but it pisses off a lot of the employees, who see no good reason for it. I don’t see any notable productivity increase moving from three to five days on site, it just makes my management job harder.
That’s the problem. And I worry for your job getting complex as the most capable people leave abruptly*.
- If they can fire people abruptly, the Golden Rule says they should expect blindsides.
Never quit in these situations, or they win.
Do the absolute fucking minimum you can, or even less so you piss off management, until they have to fire you, which they can’t outright as after a certain number of years they have to give warnings and trainings first.
There are two ways to quit: How management wants you to or because you’re forming a union.
There are many at-will states that can fire you on demand (if done carefully) and there’s nothing you can do about it.
That only works in places with actual worker protection and labor laws, which disqualifies pretty much all of the USA.
I work with several European tech teams and when staffing issues happen the other devs absolutely have to carry the slack.
Indefinitely? Cause that’s how it usually goes this side of the pond.
That’s stupid. Don’t get fired for cause, that only hurts you. Spend your time looking for a new job, then quit and leave ASAP.
Split the difference, spend as much of your time on the clock job hunting and doing the bare minimum. Then quit without notice mid shift for the new job.
I work for a real shitty company with a lot of people who do things just to justify their jobs. This leads to stupid mistakes happening that can cause MASSIVE disruptions for the entire workforce. One such stupid mistake happened this week and caused my team (and several others) a shitload of unnecessary work. Yesterday a guy on my team who works in an already understaffed office had enough and told me that he’s done, and quitting. I can’t blame him, he is in a very shitty situation and I wouldn’t have stayed as long as he has… but if he walked out it would have put that entire location, the rest of our team both locally and extended, in a much worse situation. What it wouldn’t do is hurt the company or the executives.
I’m all for people finding better jobs and leaving toxic environments, but it really does no one any good to pick the absolute worst time to walk out. That’s petty and will burn a lot of bridges, and depending on your situation and industry could come back to haunt you down the road.
damn your tongue must be strong af from all that bootlicking you do
You know what, fuck off. Who the fuck do you think you’re trying to impress? I know my fucking job sucks, I know the company I work for sucks and I know that almost everyone who works for this company is suffering. So what, fuck me for not wanting to make it worse on everyone else who isn’t in a position to just walk off the job? I wish I lived in your dream world where you never have to do things you don’t 100% agree with, it must be nice, but for me I’m living in this shit and I’m trying my best to take care of the people who count on me. So let me say, just to be clear: fuck you.
no, fuck you
what the bootlicking shit is this?
Ok…that’s not bootlicking…that’s a legit plea for some poor fuck in the poorest of situations.
I’ve been in situations where I know I’m about to fuck my coworkers over and I let them know beforehand. Management can eat my dick however.
Bob, you might want to take a sick day on Wednesday…why?..just do it…here’s my linked in info.
Don’t get me wrong, I fully know that it’s bootlicking shit and I hate it… but I have a family to support, bills to pay, etc. It is soul crushing and someone purposefully picking the most painful time to walk out only hurts their coworkers, because even if you choose to take a sick day when they walk out, the next day you still have to go in and deal with the mess left behind.
if he walked out it would have put that entire location, the rest of our team both locally and extended, in a much worse situation. What it wouldn’t do is hurt the company or the executives.
That’s not your problem, that’s the company’s problem. You still get paid the same. If you have issues, take them to your supervisor, and go on with your life.
Except I don’t still get paid the same. Someone walked out last year and put the whole team in a tailspin and the rest of the team paid for it when review time came around and since we missed so many deadlines due to staffing issues no one got any sort of substantial raise. And missing your once-a-year raise doesn’t just impact your pay for that year, it impacts it for every year going forward.
I’m not sure I’d want to work somewhere that penalizes me for someone else’s faults.
Have you considered finding a union to bring to your workplace?
So… most workplaces? Most companies have department wide goals and metrics that don’t change just because half of a department walks. Even in good workplaces, hiring to “right size” a team takes time, and most of the time the work still needs to be done, and there’s only so far management can stretch until it starts impacting external customers.
It sucks terribly. It’s not fair. Life isn’t.
Trust me, I don’t want to work here either, but having spent 6 months looking for a job and eating through my savings and knowing that I’m in no position to do that again anytime soon, I don’t exactly have many options. And yes, I’ve considered a union, but I also don’t want to end up unemployed again so I’m not going to be the one to champion that.
Unfortunately that’s not how it works.
Boss turns around and says “new responsibilies. Get after them.” You’re especially fucked if the work is the type of tasks you are already responsible for.
Sure, you can say no, or slow play it, but that just means you’ll either get a shitty review or get fired.
I’m not justifying this, I’m recounting what often happens.
Downvotes are hilarious. Doesn’t matter if you line it, it’s how it happens around the world.
The downvotes are because you’re the kind of rug your boss cleans his boots on, making it worse for everybody in the company. You’re the problem employee.
Nope, just aware how the real world works.
When this happens my response is to go find another job
No where in my comment did I say I felt it was a good thing, or acceptable. It’s just common. You assumed I am cool with it cause it fits your worldview
Edit Tell me: you think you’re just going to say “no, I’m not gonna take on new or increased tasks” , and come out successfully at the end of the year? (In review, raise, or continued employment?)
The only move is to leave or do the work
It’s not stupid as you put it. If you know the laws of where you live, it makes perfect sense.
which they can’t outright as after a certain number of years they have to give warnings and trainings first.
I mean, says who? There’s currently only one state in the union that requires cause before you can fire someone. The real issue with firing people is that without a documented cause, that person can collect state unemployment, and the number of people who go on state unemployment from a single company has a financial impact on that company.
I don’t know about everyone else, but if that were my boss, they’d be severely underestimating my capacity for petty behavior.
This is the part not being reported in the news.
Many of us are simply working half as much as we did when we were remote. It’s not worth trying to impress these people. They hate us.
Create the metrics that show RTO reduces productivity. It’s the only thing they even pretend to care about.
Continue starving the beast. It’s how these people treat the government.
I don’t work for Amazon, but when my employer announced mandatory RTO I simply included travel time in my day. At home I could do 8 hours of pure work. RTO days were about 6 hours of work and 2 hours of commute.
Yes, absolutely agree.
Most people would get fired for that.
Most these jobs aren’t the kind you clock in and out.
At the all-hands meeting, Garman said he’s been speaking with employees and “nine out of 10 people are actually quite excited by this change.”
Just imagine the conversation between the CEO of AWS and some random employee.
„What do you think about the return-to-office policy I propose, Cog #18574?“ „Great idea Mr. Garman sir, really smart move from your team. Incredible thinking and leadership from you Mr. Garman.“
continues to tell people that 9/10 employees he talks to are excited to return to office.
He has to be straight up lying. There’s no way 9/10 are excited to be ordered back into the office. If that were the case, they’d have been in the office already.
That’s a very good point that I’ve never really thought of. It’s not like anybody was keeping them from going back into the office. If they wanted five days a week, they would already have been there five days a week.
If 9/10 were already voluntarily coming into the office every day, I could see it. Of course it would only be 9/10 of the people he bothered to speak to it about, and maybe he only spoke to people that were already there.
As to why they would care if they were already there, well one guy in my team goes in every day of his own accord. He applies pressure to everyone on my team to be there with him every day, in spite of the stated WFH policy. So everyone but me goes in every day because I’m the only one that is willing to disappoint him. I’m reasonably certain that guy would love a forced into the office every day mandate, to force me to be there too. Then he could stop making passive aggressive comments about how people who didn’t come in must not care about the work as much as they should at every opportunity.
It’s not like there’s any meaningful consequence if he is lying.
The ten surveyed were already in the office voluntarily.
9 out of the 10 he talked to are brown nosers and tell him what he wants to hear.
Unless they were preselected micromanagers who like to bully their employees.
Nobody I’ve EVER talked to wants 5 days in the office anymore. 2-3 tops. Even 3 levels above me don’t.
The “anonymous” survey asked this question with two choices: I agree or I’m looking for opportunities elsewhere
The other 1/10 gets fired for not being a team player.
Nice window behind him there. Good and high up.
Rich fucks are pushing for Russia, why not take the most Russian thing and put it to use. Good call.
