Supporters of Canada’s F-35 purchase point to the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of contracts that Canadian companies have earned by supplying parts for the U.S. aircraft. That, in turn, has sustained or created Canadian aerospace jobs. But on Feb. 28, the National Post reported that Trump has told Lockheed Martin he wants those jobs back in the U.S. when the Canadian contracts come up for renewal.
During the 2015 election campaign, Justin Trudeau vowed his government would never purchase the F-35.
As prime minister, Trudeau continued to point out the Canadian military had no need for the F-35 and he blamed the Conservatives for agreeing to purchase a problem-plagued fighter jet. But, with the 2023 announcement, the Liberals not only committed to the acquisition, but also increased the number of jets to be bought to 88 from the 65 the Conservatives had wanted.
So we’ve apparently committed to buying 88 of these things. What direction out of the contract we have, and what are the consequences?
I remember before the purchase was made, I was really hoping the government would purchase the Swedish Saab Gripen. I think it was one of the finalists for consideration (that’s what I remembered from a few news casts at the time, but not sure if it was an actual finalist, or just someone saying they thought it would be a good option.)
The main reason for me thinking we should have gone with the Saab, was that I trusted buying from Sweden more than the US. I can see the US putting some systems in place that could give them control or some way to negatively affect the F-35s. I remember someone saying that countries don’t have friends, only interests, but I’d still trust Sweden more than the US to not betray us in some way.
Saab Gripen
The fighter from the 80s?
Yes, but it’s been updated a lot since then, I think the current iteration is the E-series.
F16 (70s)? F18 (70s)? B2 (80s)? F22 (80s)?
The F22 is not from the 1980s.
It’s design is from the 80s. It was first built in the 90s. The maiden flight of the prototype was in 1990.
Gripen E is newer than the F35
There’s a problem with the engine. It’s an US design and the US just blocked a sell to Colombia. I think Saab should make another design with the Typhoon engine or some other European engine that has roughly the same size and push.
The engine was originally of Volvo design
It’s a General Electric F404 license.
Yes, on the newer versions. The earlier versions still in use, have the Volvo engine installed.
Then why the US can veto it’s sell to Colombia?
Because they are buying the newer version…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_RM12
That’s the engine of the Grippen.
The biggest issue would be stopping sharing spares. Given the current government’s proclivity for using any leverage they can get their hands on… Well… I’d be nervous if I’d bought them.
Get drones and missiles instead. Stockpile them in locations kept secret from the US. Refit our submarines so they’re capable of launching missiles again. Keep a few subs in the Caribbean at all times so they can hit their King’s winter palace in Florida.
That would be the best deterrent, other than nukes of course… which we’d need missiles for anyway.
Get Sea babies from Ukraine too.
I’m not sure how serious your comment is but anyway…what you’re describing is a decades-long reorientation of military doctrine and procurement strategy. Getting a different multi-role fighter is already a huge expense with lots of ramifications but no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Edit: IMO, if you really wanted to alter air force strategy to deter the US, you should look to Sweden and Finland who have been facing an asymmetric threat for decades. Aquire the Gripen, train with the Swedes in how to run and operate a distributed air force of small independent units capable of generating and performing missions from random roads in the woods.
Canada has a shit load of random roads in the woods, so it makes sense
The Ottawa Citizen is American owned media pretending to be Canadian, infiltrating Canadian culture and politics.
I recommend putting a brief description of Postmedia Network somewhere noticeable on that post. Sort of like an abstract for an essay, maybe.
Done!
This would be easier if another ally (or an ally, rather) made a 5th gen fighter, but there are none. We’d be stuck either with ageing platforms or waiting another 10-15 years for Eoropeans to finish one of the 5th gens they’re working on.
The problem is that in the event of a conflict with the US, those jets would be entirely unusable because they’d shut them down. And we’d be billions of dollars down.
It would be better to spend that money elsewhere, even if it’s out of date, than to have nothing.
Pretty sure we couldn’t buy enough of anything to make a difference against the US in even the long term. Except nukes. Those are the only feasible deterrents we could use.
If US attacked Canada it would be a nightmare for them. Canada is huge. If you think Russia is having a hard time in Ukraine thst is just a small taste of it.
We def need to cancel the f-35 program.
Trump has destroyed American exceptionalism.
Buys a shitload of drones. Just ask Russia how devastating those can be.
South Korea won’t sell theirs will they?
Well thats what we need to be putting our money in right now (speaking as a european). Even if america does not turn full authoritarian in the next 4 years and we get them back to our site, we can not sit this out right now. We need to be able to fight for our own interests, thats one of the few things Trump is right about (even though it is simply an excuse to drop us).
At that point China, Russia and America will be at their 6th
China and America kinda already are, China has it’s J-36 and J-50 prototypes flying right now, America supposedly flew a prototype associated with it’s next-gen fighter program, but there’s just some pictures of airframes on tarmac that nobody can identify so they assume it must be the next-gen fighter.
Screw this “waiting another 10-15 years.” We need to join the GCAP program, and get seriously active.
Lead time is necessarily immense, but we could both shorten it and improve the end product.
“Waiting for someone else to develop” has been a symptom of Canada’s Aerospace industry since the Arrow was shitcanned, and has crept into our national subconscious stream. We need to attack that attitude.
I’d be on board with that, but it doesn’t solve the short-term problem. I seriously doubt our CF-18s will last another 15 years.
True enough, but we can get stopgap gen 4.5 fighters at about half the price of the F-35, and with a vastly lower operational cost.
Get a fleet of Gripen Es, and run them in parallel with our existing Hornets, replacing the Hornets as they age out over the next decade or so. By then the new GCAP fighter should be in full production.
How long would it take SAAB to ramp up? We’re supposed to receive the first tranche of F35s next year.
Yeah we feel that issue as well. Hindsight being what it is we should have bought the Rafaele
Eurofighter Typhoon vs Dassault Rafale - Aero Corner
https: //aerocorner(dot) com/comparison/eurofighter-typhoon-vs-dassault-rafale
Eurofighter seems better …Edit : Oops, bad site. See instead :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
.I have the feeling this article is written by AI.
What’s better about the Eurofighter Typhoon? There are a few key reasons why the Eurofighter Typhoon is a better choice than the Dassault Rafale. First, the Typhoon has a more powerful engine, which gives it better acceleration and top speed. Additionally, the Typhoon has superior avionics, including an active electronically scanned array radar that can track multiple targets at once.
What’s better about the Dassault Rafale? In a close fight, the Dassault Rafale is a better plane than the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Rafale has better avionics, a more powerful engine, and is overall more maneuverable.
Which is it ? Both have the superior avionics and more powerful engine. It’s contradictions like that through out the entire article.
You are right. So, i just now edited my post to better links.
At first i only gave a look at comparison of specification but then reading the article it’s quite bogus in fact.
@A_A The site you linked doesnt show but iirc the Rafaele is capabele of carrying a nuclear payload and the Eurofighter isnt.
You are right I posted that comment too fast before checking and i now corrected and edited my comment with better links.
RIP canada
The contract needs to be cancelled ASAP !!!
Gripen might be a stopgap, but it is an older platform. At least with updates it’s at least considered a “4.5” generation fighter. F35 is pretty much the best option atm.
Planning ahead though, Canada needs to get involved with either GCAP (Global Combat Air Platform or FCAS (Future Combat Air System).
We can’t realistically pull off another Avro Arrow with modern 5th/6th generation features by ourselves. We can partner with more reliable allies though, and help bolster our own defence aerospace industry at the same time. In either GCAP or FCAS, we would be the junior partner though.
Best asf in wargame red dragon
I think Canada needs to accept a stopgap measure - the Gripen, Typhoon, Rafale, or Super Hornet - and dive headfirst into GCAP. FCAS is tempting as well, but GCAP is farther along and the countries are probably closer in goals to Canada.
I agree.
GCAP includes Japan (CPTPP partner), and they seem very motivated to not dawdle with getting a modern fighter. GCAP also includes the UK (CANZUK + NATO) and Italy (CETA/EU+NATO).
FCAS is France, Germany and Spain, off the top of my head, and has much less urgency. Of course that could be changing. They’re all EU and NATO, so more eggs in a single basket, but more reliable than US.
One other edge to GCAP is that Sweden had considered joining GCAP, but backed out. They might get back in maybe? Saab is pretty damn competent as well. It would be an even better team. Plus if we went with Gripen and already had some cooperation with Saab, could be even easier to work together.
Perun had a good video a little while back… here it is https://youtu.be/TTjdEtHYDJ4
Even funnier - putin has all the backdoors into American weaponry from trump’s first term in office. This made the F-35 obsolete just as they were figuring out how to keep it in the air - you see… it had this crashing problem for years…
If our European friends want to start a made in Europe defense plan, ordering a boatload of next generation fighter jets from them seems helpful…
Europe doesn’t have a 5th gen fighter, and they’re beholden enough to the US that they did nothing when we blew up their natural gas pipeline, forcing them to buy our natural gas at exorbitant prices, during winter and are trying to fund our war even after we’ve stopped. America’s other vassals aren’t going to help you stop America.
China exports the J-35, Russia exports the Su-57. Making Lockheed stock crater when even Canada abandons them would light a fire under more congress member’s asses than anything else you can do.
Then again, it’s not like GD, LM, and Boeing would ever let their politicians fuck up the bag.
We’ve already seen that Boeing is willing and able to cause accidental falls from balconies.
So buy from Russia instead because the US has become a Russian puppet and we can’t trust them anymore?
Defence analysts warn U.S. will
control key systems on F-35 fighter jets,puttingCanada at risk.100%. The USA is absolutely not to be trusted. It is a friend to itself only.
Canada should cancel the order and invest in nukes and drones.
Sadly they’ve also proven they’re not even friendly with themselves. They’re a wildcard.
Typhoons lets gooooo
Oh well
If only we had made a decision not to scrap the Avro Arrow. Thanks Diefenbaker.
the buck stops here
Doesn’t give an actual reason
