ok sure, that does again not mean that Luxemburg was wrong.
See i tried to show that the historical argument that something ended, does not really mean much.
Yes I continued from the point of how deeply marxist the menshevik point was. It was direct historical materialism. Thats also why most marxists agreed with them on this. Also if you consider this a strawman then the cases of China and Vietnam which you mentioned hold no water since we agree on the necessity of contradictions arising in capitalism which are part of historical materialism.
ok sure, that does again not mean that Luxemburg was wrong.
To sum up. Both Lenin and Luxemburg AGREED on the goals and general approach of the necessity of a revolution and the vanguard. They disagreed on the tactics of how to accomplish this goal that they agreed on. We now have over a century of history to look back at and decide which approach was correct by looking which approach has successfully accomplished these goals historically. Lenin was proven right and Luxemburg was proven wrong.
This is not a slight against Luxemburg because nobody knew what the correct way to organize would be when it was being done for the first time. However, there is no excuse for people who are unable to examine history and analyze it critically today.
Yes I continued from the point of how deeply marxist the menshevik point was.
And I’ve explained in detail why menshiviks were not in fact Marxists.
Also if you consider this a strawman then the cases of China and Vietnam which you mentioned hold no water since we agree on the necessity of contradictions arising in capitalism which are part of historical materialism.
Yeah she cared far more for the democratic organization. The bolshevik model tried to justify itself as only transitional and so directing the mass of proletariat which is too stupid to understand its own needs was sold as somehow getting closer to the model where they own means of their production and all of a sudden know exactly what they need.
Again the historical argument is so weird. Literally the countries like Vietnam and Korea had solid democratic organisation by commities not dissimilar to initial soviets. They only moved to centralization after being attacked by us. They were not like bolsheviks before.
If lenins goal was to have workers who own their means of production, in the marxist sense, he failed. The vanguard party never went away, ideal was not accomplished. In this same sense that you use Stalin was proved right, Khruschev, Brezhnev Gorbachev just because during their administration bolshevism existed. Luxemburg being proved wrong I also dont understand, how is it that if the party cowardly abandons its cause it somehow disproves that cause?
This also makes it seem like you actually want some level of dogmatism. Assuming that Lenins idea of revolution is the correct one.
yes you said that mensheviks are not revolutionary, and the only argument is that they want first a bourgeois revolution to happen before a socialist one.
so we dont agree that historical materialism necessitates contradictions of capitalist society to give rise to socialist revolution?
Yeah she cared far more for the democratic organization. The bolshevik model tried to justify itself as only transitional and so directing the mass of proletariat which is too stupid to understand its own needs was sold as somehow getting closer to the model where they own means of their production and all of a sudden know exactly what they need.
It’s the height of absurdity to claim that Bolsheviks didn’t care about democratic organization.
Again the historical argument is so weird. Literally the countries like Vietnam and Korea had solid democratic organisation by commities not dissimilar to initial soviets. They only moved to centralization after being attacked by us. They were not like bolsheviks before.
On which principles did they organize, Lenin’s or Luxemburg’s. You’re making my point for me here.
If lenins goal was to have workers who own their means of production, in the marxist sense, he failed. The vanguard party never went away, ideal was not accomplished.
That’s an absurdly infantile argument. The reality is that the USSR existed under threat from the overarching capitalist world throughout its whole existence and was not allowed to develop peacefully. It was invaded by western powers in 1918, then plunged into WW2 a couple of decades later, and then into Cold War. Claiming that it did not live up to Platonic ideals of communism under these conditions is inane to say the least.
Luxemburg being proved wrong I also dont understand, how is it that if the party cowardly abandons its cause it somehow disproves that cause?
Meanwhile, Luxemburg’s idealism gave us the nazis in the end. Had the German communists followed Russian example, then the history may have turned out completely differently. There may not have been a WW2, Europe would’ve become communist, and the US would’ve remained an isolated regional power which would’ve likely turned communist as well to follow the rest of the world.
This also makes it seem like you actually want some level of dogmatism. Assuming that Lenins idea of revolution is the correct one.
Looking at what has worked historically is the opposite of dogmatism.
yes you said that mensheviks are not revolutionary, and the only argument is that they want first a bourgeois revolution to happen before a socialist one
The fact that you don’t understand the absurdity of the sentence you wrote is incredible.
so we dont agree that historical materialism necessitates contradictions of capitalist society to give rise to socialist revolution?
I’ve already addressed this in an earlier reply. You can feel free to reread it.
When compared to most other marxist they were far less democratic. I cannot speak to their hidden cares. But they very much upheld the idea of stupid mass of workers that needs to be told what to do.
The point is that the commities only became centralized after they were attacked. I dont know how else to say this. They were not like the bolsheviks initially.
Well I have only adopted your methods. Its almost as insane as trying to argue that its was a failure of Luxemburgs ideas and not the abandonment of the party which caused the failure of revolution. That would be absurdly infantile.
Again this is just crazy. It was the party that failed not Luxemburg. If the party adopted her methods who knows what would have happened. Thats like saying that trotsky or bukharin failed because their ideas were just worse than stalins. Pure insanity.
Ok but if we then try to say that ones method was correct simply because thats what prevailed then this gives no extra value, we dont know what the system would look like if the party would not abandon Luxemburg, or if bukharin replaced stalin. By the same argument germans were correct because thats what happened.
again with mensheviks you seem to maybe not know their ideology. A communist which revolts against a capitalist system is still revolutionary. It doesnt need to be against a tzarist one.
alright then we shall disagree on this, i do believe that its a capitalist society which gives rise to the necessary contradictions.
When compared to most other marxist they were far less democratic. I cannot speak to their hidden cares. But they very much upheld the idea of stupid mass of workers that needs to be told what to do.
I don’t see any point comparing real world societies to fictional ones.
Well I have only adopted your methods. Its almost as insane as trying to argue that its was a failure of Luxemburgs ideas and not the abandonment of the party which caused the failure of revolution. That would be absurdly infantile.
Nah, you’ve stuck to your own methods of making nonsensical statements that fail to address the points I’m making. Why did the part abandon Luxemburg, why were German communists unable to organize the way Bolsheviks did. Have you considered that lack of party discipline was precisely the problem there?
Ok but if we then try to say that ones method was correct simply because thats what prevailed then this gives no extra value, we dont know what the system would look like if the party would not abandon Luxemburg, or if bukharin replaced stalin. By the same argument germans were correct because thats what happened.
Nobody is saying that methods are correct simply by virtue of prevailing. What’s being said is that methods that consistently fail to achieve desired results are definitely not correct.
again with mensheviks you seem to maybe not know their ideology. A communist which revolts against a capitalist system is still revolutionary. It doesnt need to be against a tzarist one.
I know their ideology quite well that’s precisely how I know that you’re blowing smoke here. The fact that you’re trying to argue that a party trying to do a capitalist revolution is socialist without a hint of irony is really incredible.
alright then we shall disagree on this, i do believe that its a capitalist society which gives rise to the necessary contradictions.
Yet, history proves you wrong. Thanks for confirming that you are not in fact a Marxist and you refuse to do material analysis of history.
We speak of systems not societies. Unless you meant to say that its fiction to think that russians perhaps were able to govern themselves. That in reality the proletariat was so stupid that such thing is only fiction. Very marxist of you.
They abandoned her because they were reformists. She was not. Not her fault. Also mensheviks were the initial organizers not bolsheviks.
yeah and they “failed” in one case, very consistent. By this method trotskys and bukharis also failed
no it was not them doing that part though, thats not even the argument
yeah i suppose i just agree too much with marx and majority of marxists. You know he seems to think that capitalism is necessary to centralise capital and the extreme exploitation of labor at that point gives rise to some socialist movement. See bolsheviks somewhat implicitly agreed and intended to use quite capitalist policies to transform the society into one thats more centralized. Thats in part why they were a rightist deviation from the marxist movement. The way in which stalin then proceeded with the collectivization was not whay was popular between bolsheviks during lenin.
We speak of systems not societies. Unless you meant to say that its fiction to think that russians perhaps were able to govern themselves. That in reality the proletariat was so stupid that such thing is only fiction. Very marxist of you.
Systems are sets of rules upon which societies are built. These things are inseparable. A Marxist would understand that theory cannot be divorced from practice.
They abandoned her because they were reformists. She was not. Not her fault. Also mensheviks were the initial organizers not bolsheviks.
The reformist wing won precisely because the revolutionary wing failed to organize effectively. Meanwhile, who the initial organizers were is utterly irrelevant. It’s what purpose they were organizing for that matters.
You know he seems to think that capitalism is necessary to centralise capital and the extreme exploitation of labor at that point gives rise to some socialist movement.
No, he did not think capitalism was a necessity. However, what Marx definitely did think is that you have to analyze actual material history and base your theories on the material reality. And the reality proves that this assertion is incorrect.
See bolsheviks somewhat implicitly agreed and intended to use quite capitalist policies to transform the society into one thats more centralized.
Seems like you’re making a false equivalence between capitalism and centralization here.
The way in which stalin then proceeded with the collectivization was not whay was popular between bolsheviks during lenin.
Yet, that’s precisely what allowed USSR to survive the nazi invasion, which proves Stalin correct.
I agree and the fictional system of Lenin would be dysfunctional when mensheviks were predominant by your logic. If we want to use the historical argument we can also claim that stalin completely disregarded main bolshevik ideas during his collectivization. Does this mean that Lenin failed? Because his theory was abandoned in this case?
indeed we partially agree. It is a failure of the movement not the ideas of the individual which from certain point were disregarded. Who the organizers doesnt matter in the exact way you use, their idea which leads the organizing matters. I agree.
he as a hegelian did believe that the contradictions would arise in a capitalist society, socialism would be a reaction to it. The timing of the formation of such movement he did put at the moment when the capitalists lost their purpose. In his words it was something like the capital is increasingly centralized, one capitalist exploits the other. Then he goes on to describe how when the sole purpose of centralization of capital was met, capitalism can die. The collectivization is simply not something put forward by marx. Neither was it a particulalry bolshevist policy. They liked policies like NEP, bukharin was even more capitalist. But I agree that stalins policy was different, it was also different from typical bolshevism.
Well yeah i base this equivalence on marxs capital where he sees centralization of capital as the sole purpose of capitalism as a whole.
and no when regarding bolsheviks i do mean capitalist like nep for example. Now i get that the policies are still better than pure capitalism, but they are not marxist.
the argument about stalin is a common one. The first 2 5 year plans indeed brought great successes and benefits to the population. And collectivization like stalins was never a bolshevik policy. Bukharin was far more liked in the party and seen as likely to lead after lenin. I dont know what to say about stalins policies. There are undeniable benefits, costs and we simply dont know what would bukharin bring. Probably not the purges, since his policies would be market bases probably some economic benefits. Sorry for long reply.
ok sure, that does again not mean that Luxemburg was wrong.
See i tried to show that the historical argument that something ended, does not really mean much.
Yes I continued from the point of how deeply marxist the menshevik point was. It was direct historical materialism. Thats also why most marxists agreed with them on this. Also if you consider this a strawman then the cases of China and Vietnam which you mentioned hold no water since we agree on the necessity of contradictions arising in capitalism which are part of historical materialism.
To sum up. Both Lenin and Luxemburg AGREED on the goals and general approach of the necessity of a revolution and the vanguard. They disagreed on the tactics of how to accomplish this goal that they agreed on. We now have over a century of history to look back at and decide which approach was correct by looking which approach has successfully accomplished these goals historically. Lenin was proven right and Luxemburg was proven wrong.
This is not a slight against Luxemburg because nobody knew what the correct way to organize would be when it was being done for the first time. However, there is no excuse for people who are unable to examine history and analyze it critically today.
And I’ve explained in detail why menshiviks were not in fact Marxists.
Incorrect
Yeah she cared far more for the democratic organization. The bolshevik model tried to justify itself as only transitional and so directing the mass of proletariat which is too stupid to understand its own needs was sold as somehow getting closer to the model where they own means of their production and all of a sudden know exactly what they need.
Again the historical argument is so weird. Literally the countries like Vietnam and Korea had solid democratic organisation by commities not dissimilar to initial soviets. They only moved to centralization after being attacked by us. They were not like bolsheviks before.
If lenins goal was to have workers who own their means of production, in the marxist sense, he failed. The vanguard party never went away, ideal was not accomplished. In this same sense that you use Stalin was proved right, Khruschev, Brezhnev Gorbachev just because during their administration bolshevism existed. Luxemburg being proved wrong I also dont understand, how is it that if the party cowardly abandons its cause it somehow disproves that cause?
This also makes it seem like you actually want some level of dogmatism. Assuming that Lenins idea of revolution is the correct one.
yes you said that mensheviks are not revolutionary, and the only argument is that they want first a bourgeois revolution to happen before a socialist one.
so we dont agree that historical materialism necessitates contradictions of capitalist society to give rise to socialist revolution?
It’s the height of absurdity to claim that Bolsheviks didn’t care about democratic organization.
On which principles did they organize, Lenin’s or Luxemburg’s. You’re making my point for me here.
That’s an absurdly infantile argument. The reality is that the USSR existed under threat from the overarching capitalist world throughout its whole existence and was not allowed to develop peacefully. It was invaded by western powers in 1918, then plunged into WW2 a couple of decades later, and then into Cold War. Claiming that it did not live up to Platonic ideals of communism under these conditions is inane to say the least.
Meanwhile, Luxemburg’s idealism gave us the nazis in the end. Had the German communists followed Russian example, then the history may have turned out completely differently. There may not have been a WW2, Europe would’ve become communist, and the US would’ve remained an isolated regional power which would’ve likely turned communist as well to follow the rest of the world.
Looking at what has worked historically is the opposite of dogmatism.
The fact that you don’t understand the absurdity of the sentence you wrote is incredible.
I’ve already addressed this in an earlier reply. You can feel free to reread it.
When compared to most other marxist they were far less democratic. I cannot speak to their hidden cares. But they very much upheld the idea of stupid mass of workers that needs to be told what to do.
The point is that the commities only became centralized after they were attacked. I dont know how else to say this. They were not like the bolsheviks initially.
Well I have only adopted your methods. Its almost as insane as trying to argue that its was a failure of Luxemburgs ideas and not the abandonment of the party which caused the failure of revolution. That would be absurdly infantile.
Again this is just crazy. It was the party that failed not Luxemburg. If the party adopted her methods who knows what would have happened. Thats like saying that trotsky or bukharin failed because their ideas were just worse than stalins. Pure insanity.
Ok but if we then try to say that ones method was correct simply because thats what prevailed then this gives no extra value, we dont know what the system would look like if the party would not abandon Luxemburg, or if bukharin replaced stalin. By the same argument germans were correct because thats what happened.
again with mensheviks you seem to maybe not know their ideology. A communist which revolts against a capitalist system is still revolutionary. It doesnt need to be against a tzarist one.
alright then we shall disagree on this, i do believe that its a capitalist society which gives rise to the necessary contradictions.
I don’t see any point comparing real world societies to fictional ones.
Nah, you’ve stuck to your own methods of making nonsensical statements that fail to address the points I’m making. Why did the part abandon Luxemburg, why were German communists unable to organize the way Bolsheviks did. Have you considered that lack of party discipline was precisely the problem there?
Nobody is saying that methods are correct simply by virtue of prevailing. What’s being said is that methods that consistently fail to achieve desired results are definitely not correct.
I know their ideology quite well that’s precisely how I know that you’re blowing smoke here. The fact that you’re trying to argue that a party trying to do a capitalist revolution is socialist without a hint of irony is really incredible.
Yet, history proves you wrong. Thanks for confirming that you are not in fact a Marxist and you refuse to do material analysis of history.
We speak of systems not societies. Unless you meant to say that its fiction to think that russians perhaps were able to govern themselves. That in reality the proletariat was so stupid that such thing is only fiction. Very marxist of you.
They abandoned her because they were reformists. She was not. Not her fault. Also mensheviks were the initial organizers not bolsheviks.
yeah and they “failed” in one case, very consistent. By this method trotskys and bukharis also failed
no it was not them doing that part though, thats not even the argument
yeah i suppose i just agree too much with marx and majority of marxists. You know he seems to think that capitalism is necessary to centralise capital and the extreme exploitation of labor at that point gives rise to some socialist movement. See bolsheviks somewhat implicitly agreed and intended to use quite capitalist policies to transform the society into one thats more centralized. Thats in part why they were a rightist deviation from the marxist movement. The way in which stalin then proceeded with the collectivization was not whay was popular between bolsheviks during lenin.
Systems are sets of rules upon which societies are built. These things are inseparable. A Marxist would understand that theory cannot be divorced from practice.
The reformist wing won precisely because the revolutionary wing failed to organize effectively. Meanwhile, who the initial organizers were is utterly irrelevant. It’s what purpose they were organizing for that matters.
No, he did not think capitalism was a necessity. However, what Marx definitely did think is that you have to analyze actual material history and base your theories on the material reality. And the reality proves that this assertion is incorrect.
Seems like you’re making a false equivalence between capitalism and centralization here.
Yet, that’s precisely what allowed USSR to survive the nazi invasion, which proves Stalin correct.
I agree and the fictional system of Lenin would be dysfunctional when mensheviks were predominant by your logic. If we want to use the historical argument we can also claim that stalin completely disregarded main bolshevik ideas during his collectivization. Does this mean that Lenin failed? Because his theory was abandoned in this case?
indeed we partially agree. It is a failure of the movement not the ideas of the individual which from certain point were disregarded. Who the organizers doesnt matter in the exact way you use, their idea which leads the organizing matters. I agree.
he as a hegelian did believe that the contradictions would arise in a capitalist society, socialism would be a reaction to it. The timing of the formation of such movement he did put at the moment when the capitalists lost their purpose. In his words it was something like the capital is increasingly centralized, one capitalist exploits the other. Then he goes on to describe how when the sole purpose of centralization of capital was met, capitalism can die. The collectivization is simply not something put forward by marx. Neither was it a particulalry bolshevist policy. They liked policies like NEP, bukharin was even more capitalist. But I agree that stalins policy was different, it was also different from typical bolshevism.
Well yeah i base this equivalence on marxs capital where he sees centralization of capital as the sole purpose of capitalism as a whole. and no when regarding bolsheviks i do mean capitalist like nep for example. Now i get that the policies are still better than pure capitalism, but they are not marxist.
the argument about stalin is a common one. The first 2 5 year plans indeed brought great successes and benefits to the population. And collectivization like stalins was never a bolshevik policy. Bukharin was far more liked in the party and seen as likely to lead after lenin. I dont know what to say about stalins policies. There are undeniable benefits, costs and we simply dont know what would bukharin bring. Probably not the purges, since his policies would be market bases probably some economic benefits. Sorry for long reply.