Well again you provide no historical proof against a industrialized capitalist system. Trying to argue that it will work the same is the opposite of mhistorical materialism.
Ok here I dont know where to begin. Well lets beginwoth capitalism. Why was the bourgeois revolution so violent precisely against feudal lords. If the structure is the same why were their estates privatized in sich a manner? Why did feudalist system not develop industries? Why is marxs critique not applied to feudalism also, when they could be used interchangebly. You use some wording that yannis has used and try to claim that pretty much all marxists and even most economists dont understand what they talk about.
i agree with the scaling argument. Thats why the soviets and factory committees were founded, so that they could be what controlls the production as informed and effective as possible.
Yes these hierarchies evolve in ant colonies for example. You know the workers do what they must and will die if the colony chooses so. I must admit that i fail to see the relevancy. A worst social darwinist could use such an argument.
Yet weirdly enough, despite the scapegoat of kulaks, the worst year of the famine coincided with the worst yield. And the famine was most pronounced in the argricultural regions. Note that this would not have happened if the regional soviets were in control, because they would know the yield. Centralization is effective, just not when it comes to knowing information that is decentralized. Then it becomes incredibly uninformed. Again note that this has nothing to do with workers controlling their production. Giving away more grain than you produce was an example of how marxist these policies and organization were.
Some were, many werent. Actually the most populous ones, the largest ones, were definitely not.
Again without proof. Counterexamples: during the 1930s crisis the unions in us were incredibly strong, 1960s and i guess crises in general.
Well again you provide no historical proof against a industrialized capitalist system. Trying to argue that it will work the same is the opposite of mhistorical materialism.
The historical proof is that industrial capitalism transitions into financial capitalism as we see happening in the west.
If the structure is the same why were their estates privatized in sich a manner? Why did feudalist system not develop industries?
See, this is why you need to spend a bit of time to actually understand what dialectical materialism is before debating it. Capitalism arose from the technological advancements that occurred under feudalism. Capitalism stemmed from changing dynamics within society that shifted power into the hands of the merchant class.
You use some wording that yannis has used and try to claim that pretty much all marxists and even most economists dont understand what they talk about.
No, I actually understand how capitalism evolved and the material conditions that drove it. I also understand how capitalism itself evolves and why the industrial stage transitioned into financialized stage. These are things any Marxist should be able to comprehend.
Yes these hierarchies evolve in ant colonies for example. You know the workers do what they must and will die if the colony chooses so. I must admit that i fail to see the relevancy. A worst social darwinist could use such an argument.
You fail to see the relevancy because you’re once again failing to apply dialectical thinking to the problem. Hierarchies are a tool for solving the problem of coordination. Similar problems occur both in societies and in nature, and similar solutions evolve in both contexts. Furthermore, hierarchies do not imply that workers don’t have no power or that there is strict top down management. The brain doesn’t micromanage how your body functions, it sets the general goals and delegates their execution. Similarly, we can look at China as a modern example where there is bottom up organization at the local level that works in harmony with large scale planning at high level.
Yet weirdly enough, despite the scapegoat of kulaks, the worst year of the famine coincided with the worst yield. And the famine was most pronounced in the argricultural regions. Note that this would not have happened if the regional soviets were in control, because they would know the yield.
No that’s pure nonsense. What would’ve happened was that the famine would’ve been worse in other regions. We can look at actual research on the subjet here. The reality is that during the 1932 Famine, the USSR sent aid to affected regions in an attempt to alleviate the famine. According to Mark Tauger in his article, The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933:
While the leadership did not stop exports, they did try to alleviate the famine. A 25 February 1933 Central Committee decree allotted seed loans of 320,000 tons to Ukraine and 240,000 tons to the northern Caucasus. Seed loans were also made to the Lower Volga and may have been made to other regions as well. Kul’chyts’kyy cites Ukrainian party archives showing that total aid to Ukraine by April 1933 actually exceeded 560,000 tons, including more than 80,000 tons of food
Some bring up massive grain exports during the famine to show that the Soviet Union exported food while Ukraine starved. This is fallacious for a number of reasons, but most importantly of all the amount of aid that was sent to Ukraine alone actually exceeded the amount that was exported at the time.
Aid to Ukraine alone was 60 percent greater than the amount exported during the same period. Total aid to famine regions was more than double exports for the first half of 1933.
According to Tauger, the reason why more aid was not provided was because of the low harvest
It appears to have been another consequence of the low 1932 harvest that more aid was not provided: After the low 1931, 1934, and 1936 harvests procured grain was transferred back to peasants at the expense of exports.
Tauger is not a communist, and yet even he is forced to admit that the Soviets really did try to alleviate the famine as best as they could.
The proof was referring to trying to apply same means of revolution to a different system. Revolution agains preindustrialized feudalism doesnt prove the methods success agains developed capitalism.
The history of capitalism was not attacked by me though, i pointed out hoe insane drawing equality between the hierarchies and organization of production between feudalism and caputalism is.
yes and again capitalisn is not feudalism.
I agree the nature tells us lots of different things. And when one starts to pick seemingly related concepts he will find whatever he wants. Did you know that fascist believe that they are just intepreting biology? Same with colonialists. Thats why they are not a serious argument. Unless we talk of something innate to humans that would prevent certain specific behavior.
Yeah no. Basic logic here. When was the other famine there? After tsar before stalin? Any proof? There have been years with bad yields, but because the feudal system was still not completely destroyed, it was quite adapted to the conditions. This one is on the collectivization. Yeah i know about the aid. Im not implying thay they wanted people to starve. im showing how efficient central planning can be. I also found taugers work and debate. The aid is pragmatic, and is unrelated to the point of efficiency of central planing vs decentralized system. Im not just talking about ukraine, also volga region for example.
The proof was referring to trying to apply same means of revolution to a different system. Revolution agains preindustrialized feudalism doesnt prove the methods success agains developed capitalism.
Yet, you’re unable to put in concrete terms how these differences matter in terms of organizing a revolution. You’re just making hand wavy statements that lack substance here.
I agree the nature tells us lots of different things. And when one starts to pick seemingly related concepts he will find whatever he wants. Did you know that fascist believe that they are just intepreting biology? Same with colonialists. Thats why they are not a serious argument. Unless we talk of something innate to humans that would prevent certain specific behavior.
This addresses nothing of what I actually said.
Yeah no. Basic logic here. When was the other famine there? After tsar before stalin? Any proof?
Yeah there’s plenty of proof, and maybe go spend a bit of time learning about the subject instead of wasting other people’s time with inane claims. This whole discussion started with me pointing out that you’re speaking out of ignorance here, and everything you’ve said in this thread has further reinforced that fact. You keep acting like things you’re attempting to debate are just abstract ideas while there is very clear history and facts at play here.
In any case, it’s pretty clear that this discussion isn’t going anywhere. We’re obviously not going to agree on anything or convince each other of anything. So, I’m going to stop here and let you have the last word.
The burden of proof lies with the claim. Why would a movement work if presented with different material conditions? If we depart on the claim that bolsheviks faced different material conditions than movements today and back then in germany for example, which is what i think, then we disagree on premise.
it addresses the comparison to brain, which in any sense of an argument is very weak.
“go find the proof” is not an argument. The famines of tsar were not repeated by bolshevik policies until stalin took over. Theres my proof.
we agreed on many matters. We deviated from the topic which i would sum up as: you do not see mensheviks as marxists because they wanted bourgeois revolution before a socialist one. I have no issue with that, since i see it as making them even more marxist.
Well again you provide no historical proof against a industrialized capitalist system. Trying to argue that it will work the same is the opposite of mhistorical materialism.
Ok here I dont know where to begin. Well lets beginwoth capitalism. Why was the bourgeois revolution so violent precisely against feudal lords. If the structure is the same why were their estates privatized in sich a manner? Why did feudalist system not develop industries? Why is marxs critique not applied to feudalism also, when they could be used interchangebly. You use some wording that yannis has used and try to claim that pretty much all marxists and even most economists dont understand what they talk about.
i agree with the scaling argument. Thats why the soviets and factory committees were founded, so that they could be what controlls the production as informed and effective as possible. Yes these hierarchies evolve in ant colonies for example. You know the workers do what they must and will die if the colony chooses so. I must admit that i fail to see the relevancy. A worst social darwinist could use such an argument.
Yet weirdly enough, despite the scapegoat of kulaks, the worst year of the famine coincided with the worst yield. And the famine was most pronounced in the argricultural regions. Note that this would not have happened if the regional soviets were in control, because they would know the yield. Centralization is effective, just not when it comes to knowing information that is decentralized. Then it becomes incredibly uninformed. Again note that this has nothing to do with workers controlling their production. Giving away more grain than you produce was an example of how marxist these policies and organization were.
Some were, many werent. Actually the most populous ones, the largest ones, were definitely not.
Again without proof. Counterexamples: during the 1930s crisis the unions in us were incredibly strong, 1960s and i guess crises in general.
The historical proof is that industrial capitalism transitions into financial capitalism as we see happening in the west.
See, this is why you need to spend a bit of time to actually understand what dialectical materialism is before debating it. Capitalism arose from the technological advancements that occurred under feudalism. Capitalism stemmed from changing dynamics within society that shifted power into the hands of the merchant class.
No, I actually understand how capitalism evolved and the material conditions that drove it. I also understand how capitalism itself evolves and why the industrial stage transitioned into financialized stage. These are things any Marxist should be able to comprehend.
You fail to see the relevancy because you’re once again failing to apply dialectical thinking to the problem. Hierarchies are a tool for solving the problem of coordination. Similar problems occur both in societies and in nature, and similar solutions evolve in both contexts. Furthermore, hierarchies do not imply that workers don’t have no power or that there is strict top down management. The brain doesn’t micromanage how your body functions, it sets the general goals and delegates their execution. Similarly, we can look at China as a modern example where there is bottom up organization at the local level that works in harmony with large scale planning at high level.
No that’s pure nonsense. What would’ve happened was that the famine would’ve been worse in other regions. We can look at actual research on the subjet here. The reality is that during the 1932 Famine, the USSR sent aid to affected regions in an attempt to alleviate the famine. According to Mark Tauger in his article, The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933:
Some bring up massive grain exports during the famine to show that the Soviet Union exported food while Ukraine starved. This is fallacious for a number of reasons, but most importantly of all the amount of aid that was sent to Ukraine alone actually exceeded the amount that was exported at the time.
According to Tauger, the reason why more aid was not provided was because of the low harvest
Tauger is not a communist, and yet even he is forced to admit that the Soviets really did try to alleviate the famine as best as they could.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500600
The proof was referring to trying to apply same means of revolution to a different system. Revolution agains preindustrialized feudalism doesnt prove the methods success agains developed capitalism.
The history of capitalism was not attacked by me though, i pointed out hoe insane drawing equality between the hierarchies and organization of production between feudalism and caputalism is.
yes and again capitalisn is not feudalism.
I agree the nature tells us lots of different things. And when one starts to pick seemingly related concepts he will find whatever he wants. Did you know that fascist believe that they are just intepreting biology? Same with colonialists. Thats why they are not a serious argument. Unless we talk of something innate to humans that would prevent certain specific behavior.
Yeah no. Basic logic here. When was the other famine there? After tsar before stalin? Any proof? There have been years with bad yields, but because the feudal system was still not completely destroyed, it was quite adapted to the conditions. This one is on the collectivization. Yeah i know about the aid. Im not implying thay they wanted people to starve. im showing how efficient central planning can be. I also found taugers work and debate. The aid is pragmatic, and is unrelated to the point of efficiency of central planing vs decentralized system. Im not just talking about ukraine, also volga region for example.
Yet, you’re unable to put in concrete terms how these differences matter in terms of organizing a revolution. You’re just making hand wavy statements that lack substance here.
This addresses nothing of what I actually said.
Yeah there’s plenty of proof, and maybe go spend a bit of time learning about the subject instead of wasting other people’s time with inane claims. This whole discussion started with me pointing out that you’re speaking out of ignorance here, and everything you’ve said in this thread has further reinforced that fact. You keep acting like things you’re attempting to debate are just abstract ideas while there is very clear history and facts at play here.
In any case, it’s pretty clear that this discussion isn’t going anywhere. We’re obviously not going to agree on anything or convince each other of anything. So, I’m going to stop here and let you have the last word.
The burden of proof lies with the claim. Why would a movement work if presented with different material conditions? If we depart on the claim that bolsheviks faced different material conditions than movements today and back then in germany for example, which is what i think, then we disagree on premise.
it addresses the comparison to brain, which in any sense of an argument is very weak.
“go find the proof” is not an argument. The famines of tsar were not repeated by bolshevik policies until stalin took over. Theres my proof.
we agreed on many matters. We deviated from the topic which i would sum up as: you do not see mensheviks as marxists because they wanted bourgeois revolution before a socialist one. I have no issue with that, since i see it as making them even more marxist.