This is ridiculous to equate the two in all cases. Jobs aren’t inherently built around that like sex work is. Jobs, in a capitalist society are but not universally. Sex work is
Sex work is only inherently built around debasing and dehumanizing yourself if you consider sex itself to be debased and dehumanizing. It’s a service profession like literally any other.
Such a complete misunderstanding of the industry is the result of a flattening of distinctions between all work and a misunderstanding of Marxist theory. Wage labor is exploitative because of the surplus value extracted from the workers’ labor. Prostitution is sexual exploitation because it feeds off of extreme vulnerability to maintain a class of prostitutes, coerces sex through money and power, and exposes those women to high amounts of rape and violence. Not all work involves coercive sex, not all work comes with the high risk of rape and male violence in whatever legal context it operates under. Not all work puts the body and it’s component parts on the market to be bought, sold, and rented at will to the highest bidder.
I read the article and my main contention is that it doesn’t establish why we must treat the performance of sex as morally different to any other form of service work. As I said in the other comment I believe that the way we are compelled to treat sex as “different” is a manifestation of patriarchal thinking - there is nothing fundamentally different between a woman who is coerced by poverty into prostitution and a man who is coerced by poverty into agricultural work, and the ways to solve the exploitation in both cases is the same: organization of the workers against the bosses, the abolition of bosses altogether and shifting control of that industry to the workers in it, and ultimately the abolition of the capitalist mode of production that incentivizes maximum exploitation of all who participate in it.
It is not about sex, it is about money. Because money is something people need to live it calls in question whether or not the sex is freely given or coerced. If a person has sex with someone not because they want to do so, but because they have to, I do not think there is much difference whether or not the threat comes from say violence or starvation. If people want to have consensual sex I think that is great in all forms that can take. If the consent is contingent on monetary compensation I think there is a high chance, though admittedly not entirely certain, that the sex is being coerced in some way, which I would say constitutes rape. Why do you think it is okay to have an uneven allocation of money in a society so that those on the top can do with those on the bottom as they want?
Why do you think it is okay to have an uneven allocation of money in a society so that those on the top can do with those on the bottom as they want?
Of course I don’t think that’s okay, don’t put words in my mouth.
My contention is that sex is morally equivalent to any other form of labor, and I believe that the pedestal we put sex on as a society is a manifestation of patriarchy. It’s no coincidence that for most of human history, sex work has been one of the few labor markets where women have an advantage over men, and thus controlling sex work has been one of the major tools at the patriarchy’s disposal for controlling women’s bodies. The impulse to control sex work is the same as the impulse to force them to wear specific clothing, the only difference is that in Western societies one of those forms of control has had a massive philosophical edifice built around it and the other hasn’t.
It was not my intention to put words in your mouth, but to put to words what myself, and maybe others, think is wrong with sex work and why it is not “a profession like any other”. It has never been about it being morally okay to offer sex. It is about it being morally not okay to ask for it in exchange for money. While we are at it I think the real consequences of allowing for sex work is not empowering women, but extending the grip of the patriarchy, whose tool is money, to realms were they should not be.
oh sorry i mean i have a well paying lifelong career and i do sex work just because i like it. i don’t do it for the money; in fact, my rule is that im only allowed to spend the money on kink, fetish, and sex toys because i don’t want it to become necessary. i know ill get older at some point and that’d be a problem: i’m over 30 right now and i can pull off a certain kind of daddy bear look, but not even that’ll last forever
i also find with other friends that do only sex work (because they enjoy it), it often makes the recreational sex that you have less fun… that’s the most common reason they stop doing it: starting on sex work not out of necessity tends to mean you quite enjoy sex, and that it’s a big part of how you relax and decompress
sex work is frequently reduced to exploitation when it’s unregulated, but making it illegal doesn’t stop it: it just makes the problem worse
when you regulate sex work (like where i live, in victoria australia) you solve a huge amount of problems. you’re not allowed to represent a sex worker here, so it’s all “sole trader” kind of stuff, or the other kind is working at a brothel which has a huge list of restrictions and you have a proper employment contract with health and safety requirements like any other job
i’m not saying exploitation doesn’t happen, but exploration can’t be stopped so it’s about harm minimisation… legal and de stigmatised sex work means when people make choices to do sex work they’re protected and have plenty of avenues to get out when they need to
*edit: also who is this “we”? don’t talk for people you don’t know… sex work isn’t an issue where i live, and id imagine you don’t have quite the majority you think you do… don’t assume your bubble represents the world
People are choosing to sell their body? Do you really think that just because it is legal that the only people doing it aren’t ones in complete poverty? And secondly, saying that there can’t be pimps doesn’t make it so. Exploitation can be stopped by providing economic conditions where people aren’t becoming prostitutes. Sex work isn’t an issue where you live? That’s such a fucking privileged thing to say. I don’t have a majority of people who oppose exploitation? Well, when I say we, I’m referring to good people
People are choosing to sell their body?
yes, i am, and plenty of my friends do to… we have regular jobs too. don’t be so judgemental
Do you really think that just because it is legal that the only people doing it aren’t ones in complete poverty?
of course not; problems exist everywhere, but we do have a functioning unemployment system which massively raises the bar
it’s also not about absolutely nothing bad happens: no matter whether it’s illegal or not people are going to do sex work… its about harm minimisation and in a system where there’s no stigma, sex workers can seek help without fear of reprisal and have laws that help them
And secondly, saying that there can’t be pimps doesn’t make it so.
true, but i’ve never heard of it being so, and i’ve heard of plenty of other issues with sex work… this just doesn’t seem to be one of them
Exploitation can be stopped by providing economic conditions where people aren’t becoming prostitutes.
or by not stigmatising sex work… sex work, by the way, is the correct term
Sex work isn’t an issue where you live? That’s such a fucking privileged thing to say.
i guess you’re right… i’m privileged to have massive government studies and research in the topic that led them to the conclusion that this was the correct choice, and i’m privileged to live here and to have life experience as a sex worker… i’m privileged to be a sex worker and not have people like you around me stigmatising and contributing to the very issue huh claim to be against simply because of some shitty “morals” which is actually about controlling people’s choices
I don’t have a majority of people who oppose exploitation? Well, when I say we, I’m referring to good people
and there it is… anyone that doesn’t agree with your world view isn’t a good person? jesus christ mate… try living outside your bubble for half a second… turns out the world doesn’t work the way you think it should. turns out problems aren’t black and white, and turns out knee jerk reactions without evidence is a shit way to govern
Sex work is actually a rather wrong term. Work means to sell your labor value which isn’t what prostitution (or “sex work” is) Selling access to one’s body ≠ selling your labor value as they are different concepts. I’m not arguing that we shouldn’t help people caught in it but rather to help, legalization isn’t necessarily the method to go down. It’s one tiny step right now. Eventually we must eliminate it through education and poverty reduction. I imagine recriminalization would be discussed at such a point when it isn’t necessary for poor people to sell their bodies.
i don’t know what else to say here other than to reiterate that you’re provably wrong on all fronts
as i’ve said: i live in a place where SEX WORK is regulated rather than criminalised, and we have significantly lower levels of associated social issues because of it… it’s not a theory, it’s a fact backed up by numerous government enquiries…
in fact, up until a year ago there were more restrictions and they significantly loosened them, because it was found that many of the minimal restrictions were detrimental to protecting people from harm and exploitation
Yet it appears to me that they haven’t addressed if these measures have actually decreased the amount of prostitutes and if that has caused many to get out of it via being “destigmitized” (How in the world it destigmitized it isn’t explained but oh well)
I honestly don’t know if I should up or down vote. The way you phrased that, after rereading it several times, I still can’t understand exactly what you’re trying to say.
This is ridiculous to equate the two in all cases. Jobs aren’t inherently built around that like sex work is. Jobs, in a capitalist society are but not universally. Sex work is
Sex work is only inherently built around debasing and dehumanizing yourself if you consider sex itself to be debased and dehumanizing. It’s a service profession like literally any other.
This is such a lib take that it pains me to read it. The whole post is worth a read, btw.
https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/the-problem-with-the-phrase-sex-work-is-work-bdac613eb2f0
I read the article and my main contention is that it doesn’t establish why we must treat the performance of sex as morally different to any other form of service work. As I said in the other comment I believe that the way we are compelled to treat sex as “different” is a manifestation of patriarchal thinking - there is nothing fundamentally different between a woman who is coerced by poverty into prostitution and a man who is coerced by poverty into agricultural work, and the ways to solve the exploitation in both cases is the same: organization of the workers against the bosses, the abolition of bosses altogether and shifting control of that industry to the workers in it, and ultimately the abolition of the capitalist mode of production that incentivizes maximum exploitation of all who participate in it.
I feel like your completely glossing over the whole increased risk of rape and violence aspect that prostitution involves compared to wage labor.
It is not about sex, it is about money. Because money is something people need to live it calls in question whether or not the sex is freely given or coerced. If a person has sex with someone not because they want to do so, but because they have to, I do not think there is much difference whether or not the threat comes from say violence or starvation. If people want to have consensual sex I think that is great in all forms that can take. If the consent is contingent on monetary compensation I think there is a high chance, though admittedly not entirely certain, that the sex is being coerced in some way, which I would say constitutes rape. Why do you think it is okay to have an uneven allocation of money in a society so that those on the top can do with those on the bottom as they want?
Of course I don’t think that’s okay, don’t put words in my mouth.
My contention is that sex is morally equivalent to any other form of labor, and I believe that the pedestal we put sex on as a society is a manifestation of patriarchy. It’s no coincidence that for most of human history, sex work has been one of the few labor markets where women have an advantage over men, and thus controlling sex work has been one of the major tools at the patriarchy’s disposal for controlling women’s bodies. The impulse to control sex work is the same as the impulse to force them to wear specific clothing, the only difference is that in Western societies one of those forms of control has had a massive philosophical edifice built around it and the other hasn’t.
It was not my intention to put words in your mouth, but to put to words what myself, and maybe others, think is wrong with sex work and why it is not “a profession like any other”. It has never been about it being morally okay to offer sex. It is about it being morally not okay to ask for it in exchange for money. While we are at it I think the real consequences of allowing for sex work is not empowering women, but extending the grip of the patriarchy, whose tool is money, to realms were they should not be.
as a sex worker, i don’t find it either debasing or dehumanising
i have a well paying job and i do it because i want to
Do you plan on this being a lifelong career for you? Why or why not?
oh sorry i mean i have a well paying lifelong career and i do sex work just because i like it. i don’t do it for the money; in fact, my rule is that im only allowed to spend the money on kink, fetish, and sex toys because i don’t want it to become necessary. i know ill get older at some point and that’d be a problem: i’m over 30 right now and i can pull off a certain kind of daddy bear look, but not even that’ll last forever
i also find with other friends that do only sex work (because they enjoy it), it often makes the recreational sex that you have less fun… that’s the most common reason they stop doing it: starting on sex work not out of necessity tends to mean you quite enjoy sex, and that it’s a big part of how you relax and decompress
Good for you. We still resolutely oppose sex work due to the fact that it’s mostly from exploitation and that’s what causes it in most cases
that’s just completely ignorant tbh
sex work is frequently reduced to exploitation when it’s unregulated, but making it illegal doesn’t stop it: it just makes the problem worse
when you regulate sex work (like where i live, in victoria australia) you solve a huge amount of problems. you’re not allowed to represent a sex worker here, so it’s all “sole trader” kind of stuff, or the other kind is working at a brothel which has a huge list of restrictions and you have a proper employment contract with health and safety requirements like any other job
i’m not saying exploitation doesn’t happen, but exploration can’t be stopped so it’s about harm minimisation… legal and de stigmatised sex work means when people make choices to do sex work they’re protected and have plenty of avenues to get out when they need to
*edit: also who is this “we”? don’t talk for people you don’t know… sex work isn’t an issue where i live, and id imagine you don’t have quite the majority you think you do… don’t assume your bubble represents the world
People are choosing to sell their body? Do you really think that just because it is legal that the only people doing it aren’t ones in complete poverty? And secondly, saying that there can’t be pimps doesn’t make it so. Exploitation can be stopped by providing economic conditions where people aren’t becoming prostitutes. Sex work isn’t an issue where you live? That’s such a fucking privileged thing to say. I don’t have a majority of people who oppose exploitation? Well, when I say we, I’m referring to good people
it’s also not about absolutely nothing bad happens: no matter whether it’s illegal or not people are going to do sex work… its about harm minimisation and in a system where there’s no stigma, sex workers can seek help without fear of reprisal and have laws that help them
Sex work is actually a rather wrong term. Work means to sell your labor value which isn’t what prostitution (or “sex work” is) Selling access to one’s body ≠ selling your labor value as they are different concepts. I’m not arguing that we shouldn’t help people caught in it but rather to help, legalization isn’t necessarily the method to go down. It’s one tiny step right now. Eventually we must eliminate it through education and poverty reduction. I imagine recriminalization would be discussed at such a point when it isn’t necessary for poor people to sell their bodies.
i don’t know what else to say here other than to reiterate that you’re provably wrong on all fronts
as i’ve said: i live in a place where SEX WORK is regulated rather than criminalised, and we have significantly lower levels of associated social issues because of it… it’s not a theory, it’s a fact backed up by numerous government enquiries…
in fact, up until a year ago there were more restrictions and they significantly loosened them, because it was found that many of the minimal restrictions were detrimental to protecting people from harm and exploitation
https://www.vic.gov.au/sex-work-decriminalisation
i’m not going to reply any more because Brandolini’s law exists
Yet it appears to me that they haven’t addressed if these measures have actually decreased the amount of prostitutes and if that has caused many to get out of it via being “destigmitized” (How in the world it destigmitized it isn’t explained but oh well)
I honestly don’t know if I should up or down vote. The way you phrased that, after rereading it several times, I still can’t understand exactly what you’re trying to say.
Could you try again please?