- cross-posted to:
- news@hexbear.net
- politics@lemmy.world
- progressivepolitics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@hexbear.net
- politics@lemmy.world
- progressivepolitics@lemmy.world
Relevant rant:
📺 Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed
Democrats would rather lose to a Republican, to a conservative, to a fascist, to Trump, than address the material conditions of the American people.
Ah yes the Corbyn technique.
They tried the Corbyn technique in the primaries. It didn’t stick, and that’s why they’re freaking out right now.
I pray for his victory. The establishment centrists and their Zionist allies replaced Corbyn with a neoliberal empty suit. It has been a catastrophe for the left and killed any hope of radical change.
Any hope of radical change through elections.
At least you didn’t get PP. He’d be deporting Native Americans in a show of support to the orange menace.
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15 hours later and no answer.
::eye twitches in need to know more::
JFC the more I learn about humanity, the more I wish to no longer participate in the experiment.
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Ugh, I just looked it up and also couldn’t find anything. The first hit on DDG is about weather. The rest of the results are equally irrelevant.
I don’t know if this will work, but I know I’ve seen people “@” each other on here before, so… I’ll try a shot in the dark - @Mrkawfee@lemmy.world , curious minds need resources!
(Sorry Davel, if I pinged you. I saw you refer to the technique too and typed your username instead of the thread’s OP.)
Thank you homie!
The Democrats are afraid Democratic Socialism as it is the anti MAGA—and they should be, the sellouts.
To be clear, all socialism is democratic. “Democratic Socialism” is just for reformist socialism, and I’d argue Mamdani is just to give New Yorkers a taste of what a better world could look like. You can’t actually change capitalism by working within it, though, revolution remains necessary. Mamdani could prove beneficial in normalizing socialism.
Traditionally yes, but the Democratic Socialists of America, as an organization (and of which Mamdani is a member), has a wide array of internal ideological factions within, that include Reformist Socialists, but also more revolutionary factions like Anarchists, Trotskyists, Marxist-Leninists, etc.
Sure, and I’d say this fracturing and factionalism works against its effectiveness. Democratic Centralism works.
I don’t disagree, but I think it’s worth recognizing that when we talk about the DSA, that it is, for better or worse more than just a reformist org.
When people speak of Democratic Socialism, they usually are referring to the ideological position, not just the USian party, for what it’s worth. That’s my point, I’m aware of Red Star caucus and whatnot.
Personally, I think that Democratic Centralism is too strict. I understand the idea behind ensuring the subordination of the minority to the majority, but as the party grows and especially after it seizes state power that subordination becomes enforced, and at that point it becomes oppression. It doesn’t get rid of factions either, it just hides them and fosters resentment towards the majority faction.
Just so we’re clear on what we’re talking about, here are the tenets of Democratic Centralism as I understand them:
- That all directing bodies of the Party, from top to bottom, shall be elected.
- That Party bodies shall give periodical accounts of their activities to their respective Party organization.
- That there shall be strict Party discipline and the subordination of the minority to the majority.
- That all decisions of higher bodies shall be absolutely binding on lower bodies and on all Party members.
I believe that point 3 should be a suggestion, and never enforced. It should be up to the individual whether any given disagreement is enough to warrant going their own way, and an option should be given to “stand aside” in cases where someone would prefer not to participate in an action but otherwise wants to remain with the group.
Point 4 is backwards IMO, and a recipe for authoritarianism. Any sort of elected authority should always be instantly recallable by the electorate, and any “lower” body should always have the autonomy to make their own decisions.
Factionalism is not a bad thing if you embrace it rather than trying to fight it.
Democratic Centralism is the result of communist parties figuring out what works best through practice. It’s at the core of the fast response times, stability, and popular support of socialist systems. Each point is developed and proven in importance through practice.
Point 3 is just basic democracy. If a group comes to a vote, what’s the point if the minority just refuses to follow? Unity in action is the strength of the working class, it’s what turns the sheer numbers into a mighty sword to fight the bourgeoisie, without unity you have a directionless and mushy form. Further, you can have revotes on decisions if necessary down the line.
Point 4 is not as scary as you think. Recall elections are a core aspect of the electoral system in demcent countries and parties if needed. The lower rungs get to elect the higher rungs, the top is only there because they have won elections, and if they lose the trust of the people they can be ousted.
As for factionalism, it’s a recipe for instability and this is where capitalism thrives. A competent, unified, democratic body is far superior than competing private interests at achieving the goals of the people. It’s part of why China’s government, as an example, has over 90% approval rates, while the US as a two-party system has less than 50% approval rates consistently. Having a single party is not anti-democratic, it means everyone is on the same team and is willing to work together.
Overall, I think you need to actually see the success of demcent orgs like PSL vs how a party like the DSA functions. PSL, with fewer party members, gets pound for pound more done. The DSA is highly divided, its biggest strength is its size, but it can’t weild it properly. Meanwhile, PSL is growing rapidly, and is at the forefront of the No Kings and pro-Palestinian protest movements in the US.
I appreciate the well thought out response. My main point of contention is the enforcement mechanism. I agree with point 3 as a strategy, and I have actually participated in groups that follow this general principle, but I have always had the option to simply leave and find another group or form my own. The problem arises when the group is the only permissible form of organization (such as, for example, if it is the one party in a one-party state). You actually see this problem in China, when the state cracks down on workers who attempt to organize on their own terms by forming independent unions. I see this as an unambiguous moral failing of the Chinese state, and is an issue on which I will not budge. Bureaucracy makes determining the will of the majority complicated (no democracy is perfect), but even if it is indeed the will of the majority, tyranny of the majority is still tyranny.
There are things more important than unity. I do not believe that a better world must necessarily come at the cost of individual autonomy.
Labor unions are promoted and are permissible, just as long as they don’t work against the socialist system. It isn’t a moral failing to value unity, especially when disunity is what has been historically used by the west to topple governments it doesn’t like. Further, again, over 90% of Chinese citizens approve of their system, and a similar quantity believe it to be genuinely democratic.
To be precise, revolution is necessary because capitalists will fucking kill you if you get elected and try to do land reforms.
democrats as in dnc elites don’t give a fig about democracy, socialism or maga. they are freaking out because their employers (superpacs and israel) have shoved a rod up their ass for allowing this to happen. they know if he gets elected then the lobbyists will kick them out and bring in new more shameless hacks. they are grifters who have been riding the two-party lesser evil gravy train for decades now.
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Your grammar is atrocious but your point is excellent. Why???
Why ??
It’s likely an aggregate effect of just waking up and rushing it to as I had to get ready for work.
not so much grammar as e. e. cummings orthography.
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The left threatens power. MAGA doesn’t.
I think I was wrong. I think both sides maybe are the same…
They sure shut the fuck up about " blue no matter who" real fast.
Democrat leadership would choose Trump over Zohran.
The destroyer?
The Relentless
The man
You don’t mess with the Zohran
They’re lining back up behind Eric Adams, which is functionally the same thing.
Dinosaurs voting for a meteor
This is evidence that the US political system does not function.
There are two paths forward;
- Burn down the entire thing (which Trump and frenemies are currently doing).
- rebuild and reform the existing system (which can happen by voters voting for progressive centralist candidates in local and state representatives en-mass (like in NYC).
I would not call Zohran Mandani a socialist. I would call him a progressive rational centralist.
I would not call Zohran Mandani a socialist.
He literally said, “The end goal is seizing the means of production”
Zohran Mamdani is a Socialist.
The existing system cannot be fixed, it depends on imperialism and as such has hollowed out industrialization in favor of finance capital. Mamdani is a “boot of the neck” candidate, someone to show a bit of what’s possible with a properly run economy, but even electing progressives elsewhere can’t bring about socialism. Revolution is still necessary.
I’m in your space so it would be rude to call you pie eyed, but that’s some pipe dream, never good enough mentality. Do you scold a baby taking it’s first steps on its 5k time? No, you cheer them on.
I’m not denouncing Mamdani, just trying to align expectations and make it clear that revolution is still necessary in order to begin socialism. I’m cheering for Mamdani, fuck Cuomo. But revolution isn’t a pipe dream. Thinking that the system can be reformed from within is the pipe-dream. Mamdani plays a role in helping the proletariat become normalized towards socialism and may represent a decent change in a positive direction for New Yorkers, but his win isn’t a requirement for revolution, nor does it get rid of the need for it.
The only path to freedom is to kill innocents by the thousands and then force the survivors to be free at gunpoint.
?
Counter point, the system is functioning as intended
I would not call Zohran Mandani a socialist. I would call him a progressive rational centralist.
I agree with you. We shouldn’t present it as “left politics”. We should present it as “politics for the people”. That way, it makes it compatible with more people.
You wouldn’t believe how many americans have a deep fear of the word “left”. We should call it centrist instead, even if it is left.
Maybe, let’s use the phrase “socialism is to listen to the heart of the people, and the heart sits in the center of people, so it’s centralist politics” or something.
wouldn’t believe how many americans have a deep fear of the word “left”. We should call it centrist instead, even if it is left
Which is just dumb as hell
I strongly disageee. Historical experience of communists and socialists proves that hiding your actual views is a way to earn deep distrust from the people. Honesty, and a focus on the Mass Line, are what has brought the most unity and most success.
now that’s surprising /s
Dumbasses
wow i’ve never seen this strategy before!
Most of the Democrats are bought off by the same people as the Republicans. All this political theatre is just a show for the illusion of choice. Hopefully more people who can’t be bought off get elected, but I doubt it.
Hopefully more people will realize that bourgeois democracy is working as intended, and that it cannot be reformed; it must be replaced.
Nope. It’s because of Israel.
Israel plays a part in that some of the policy makers are part of a Doomsday cult where Israel needs to exist for the rapture to happen. But mostly it’s just bribery.
Is anyone understanding yet that the status quo is that elected officials report to a group of influential people who have selected them because they can be controlled and that is all?
It’s true that the people with the power would rather their controllable opponent win an election than a candidate in their own party who has ideas of their own.
Until that can be remedied, democracy is truly afflicted by ophiocordyceps unilateralis.
Your vote means NOTHING
Your voice means NOTHING
CARRY ON AS DIRECTED
Yes, for centuries. Marxists and anarchists have long known this. That’s why we advocate revolution.
Damn, if you posted this six months ago, people would have tried to ban you for it.
Oh yeah, I’ve posted it before now and it makes some people really angry. It seems to be a very common idea that third party voters are somehow worse than Trump voters, as though the Democratic Party somehow have a right to all non-fascist votes.
Well, I’m glad Mamdani won in NYC and zionist liberals can finally put to rest the need to vote straight ticket Democrat.
100% when the Democrats have full control it’s all ‘golly gee willikers’ but the second the Republicans have full control it’s like ‘everyone loves steak now. EAT IT’
Yep, I keep this picture to share anytime people want to talk about how Democrats are the good guys.
It is an actual concept??!?!
I have been calling it the ratchet effect for years (because it is a ratchet).
Just happy to see someone else calling it that.
Which is why we need a Democrat socialist party. Unfortunately, voters are incapable of voting for anything other than red or blue.
The Party for Socialism and Liberation already exists, though all socialism is democratic, it just stands for reformist socialism. PSL is revolutionary, but also runs candidates.
Do they run candidates? I’m curious where. I know they do presidential campaigns but how many local races do they really run in?
See the elections section. It obviously isn’t a big focus, but it does happen.
That’s the party Zorhan is from. Look for a local chapter and join, they are lively and worth it.
It’s not the voters fault. If you split the Democratic vote, you will only get a permanent Republican government. And that doesn’t help anyone.
Politicians like Mamdani are the only way forward. We need more people like him to run for local government like this, and move their way up from there…making way for more like them to take their places, as they go. You can’t change things at the top, without laying the foundation for that change, first.
You can’t really change the system from within into a fundamentally opposed one. That’s why revolution is still necessary.
Of course you can. Just look at how the MAGA movement has taken over the Republican party. It started during Obama’s term, with the Tea Party movement. One-by-one, they primaried the old-school moderate Republicans, and eventually held majority control over their party’s policy decisions. Once they had that, the remaining moderates either chose to fall in line, or were forced to retire.
That’s how democracy works. Revolution is just an excuse to kill people for their political beliefs, when you’re too lazy to convince them to change their minds.
that’s the approach that democrats advocate; but it’s clearly not working well… or at all.
The biggest problem is, that progressives are fighting against the money. Tea Party Republicans didn’t have that problem, since most of their socio-political ideology aligns with Libertarian policies. No taxes, no regulations, no corporate accountability. That draws a lot of support from the kinds of people who were already dissatisfied with the compromise Democrats and Republicans had struck between the elites making more money, and the consumers they use to make it.
The Tea Party and later MAGA are all in on fucking us all over to benefit the ruling class. Most of their voters are just too gullible to realize that. They think they’re somehow “sticking it to the elites”, by giving them everything they could have ever hoped for.
In many ways, it was never a real grassroots movement. It was always just an astroturfed effort. But it demonstrates how you can fundamentally change the entire direction of a party in US politics. One seat at a time…until the new majority votes the way you want them to.
that certainly is a problem; but the biggest problem is the oniony and entrenched layers of propaganda that each american must put a lot of never-ending effort into overcoming; it’s the entire reason why there are so few american progressives in power to prevent political parties from catering to the oligarchies.
That catch-22 works both ways. Once there are more progressives in power, the effect will begin to reverse. I’m old enough to see it already happening. It’s just a slow shift.
The MAGA movement is not opposed to the present system of capitalism. The US is not, and has never been, a democracy.
It’s a representative democracy…which means you need to flip seats in Congress in order to take over a party. That’s all. It’s a gradual process, but one that is entirely possible within the current system. We the people, have the power to do this, just by voting.
No, it is not entirely possible. The system is designed to aopear that way, but in reality those in power will use everything they can to prevent workers from taking from them.
You’re suggesting the extreme in the opposite direction. Rs did it with a populist. Is that the only way?
They didn’t have a single populist in the beginning. They just had “Tea Party Republicans”. Unfortunately, this new “flavor” of conservative was even more racist and unintelligent than the original recipe.
Their voters immediately gravitated towards them, because they were seen as relatable outsiders, whose biggest policy position was to do whatever it took to hurt “the left”, and/or anyone who even suggested the idea of “working together” with them. (ie. RINOs)
Trump just eventually took advantage of this movement and declared himself its leader. But when it first started, he still considered himself a Democrat.
It’s still a net positive for candidates like Mamdani to achieve electoral victories. Even if you believe that a true socialist can never make it to a high enough office to establish a socialist government (which I agree is likely correct), making the attempt and achieving some reforms in the face of very public resistance from the bourgeoisie is great for class consciousness. It sends the message “hey, it actually is possible to improve your material conditions, and the rich really don’t want it to happen.” Give people a taste and they will want more, which is why the establishment is so terrified of Zohran Mamdani.
I agree that Mamdani is a positive candidate, and the fact that he beat Cuomo in the primary is a massive indicator of the real opinions held by the working class. I elaborated more elsewhere on why I support Mamdani. I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said here, my overall point is that Mamdani isn’t a substitute for revolution and it’s important to keep that in mind while we celebrate openly anti-Zionist, pro-socialist victories over establishment ghouls.
What about when democrats are the ones splitting the ticket?
Then their losses are on them…not the voters.
Yep, I agree