So Android is pointless now?
No, really. If I’m gonna be dragged kicking and screaming into the walled garden, why would I go with Google’s joke of an ecosystem instead of much nicer and better integrated Apple garden?I might as well start carrying one of those weird branded ultra-tiny laptops from AliExpress and some used, older iPhone for the 2 apps I need.
Fuck it. Throw out the baby, the bathwater, the bathtub, the whole damn thing. Fuuuuck it.Google has been been cracking down on installing .apk’s on your phone for years and they’re getting more and more aggressive about it. It’s not a question of if they’ll disallow it completely, but when.
It’s already extremely tedious. Back in the Android 2.3 days (oh, good old Gingerbread) you could just get an APK and install it, but those times are long gone.
Years ago they threatened the developer of Total Commander to remove his app from the PlayStore unless he patched out an APK install feature, so he was forced to do that.
Now another example: Try to install eBay on a phone that is not passing device integrity. It is not listed on the PlayStore because your device doesn’t pass safety checks. You can grab an APK and install it, but the OS will check if the app has been installed through the PlayStore and if it hasn’t, it will complain and close itself.
GrapheneOS has patched that bullshit out, btw.
And this behaviour happens with all apps where the developer has enabled the “App Integrity” option, which is heavily pushed as a super-great security feature. So developers might just enable that feature, not being fully aware of the implications.
As you can see, it’s one method at a time, slowly but surely, until Google fully controls the ecosystem. The intention behind that is pretty clear: They don’t want people to have AdAway and Revanced, they want money and user data. And they also want you to login to the PlayStore, get hooked on their stupid daily points challenges and spend your hard-earned money on virtual crap.
This is textbook enshittification, it will only get worse from here on.
AdAway can be easily emulated using a DNS server…
Yeah I carry that DNS server around with me in the other pocket /s
Idk why you’re meming, it’s easy as hell to run it on device, or you can just use dns.adguard.com instead
To be fair, unless you’re using a private, controllable DNS with a frontend interface (like NextDNS, Pihole, etc) – DNS ad blocking is “all or nothing”. Those apps let you control which apps and services and domains come through.
I’m aware, I choose to use the adguard one but I’ve used the on-device ones in the past
Oddly enough your phone is more than powerful enough to do that.
The people coming up with these ideas should be lynched.
I heard that they’re probably going to be using the Google Play store and probably similar modules to play protect to enforce this. So the question becomes will disabling the Google Play store bypass this? It outright kills play protect dialogue as well as its app disabling capability as a whole since play protect is part of Google Play store.
I don’t know anything about jailbreaking android phones yet, but are there resources for getting into doing this to my current android and taking responsibility for security myself?
Looks like I’m gonna just carry a stock phone, give it nothing but the most basic information and tether it to a laptop over a VPN. They stop tethering? I’ll use VOIP and a hotspot.
Welcome back to 2011. Maybe messenger bags will come back into fashion in foss culture.
Run Lineage on your phone of choice.
Or if you’re paranoid, a Pixel with Graphene.
…What about after September 2026?
Well, there’s one teensy tiny caveat.
Google says that only apps with verified identities will be installable on certified Android devices, which is virtually every Android-based device—if it has Google services on it, it’s a certified device.
So, in theory… no gapps, no approval necessary?
Open devs just have to have two versions, as many already do, one signed with Google’s spyware and one on github/fdroid with nothing.
So install Lineage OS without Google services, got it.
Seems about right, for as long as they can.
I’d even consider the possibility of “google-free” phones showing up on kickstarter in two or three years for the tinkerer market. That market exists. Raspberrypi didn’t buy itself. We are here!
So I guess my next phone will be a Chinese phone. Even if it spies on me, I’ll have the freedom to install whatever I want from anywhere.
The Chinese have a golden window of opportunity. Let’s hope they don’t mess this up.
I guess if GrapheneOS finally gets spoken to by a manufacturer interested in filling this market gap, that would be awesome too.
Hell, maybe it could be a chinese manufacturer.
GrapheneOS is currently actively talking to a major Android OEM in order to help them reach the security requirements for a subset of their future devices. If that succeeds GrapheneOS will be able to run on non-Pixel devices.
Oh please let this work out
Timewindow 2026, perhaps 2027 for release of such devices. Talks have been going on for a few months, if it wasn’t working out at all that probably should’ve been clear already.
I am very happy with my One Plus 13 phone. It has better hardware and was at a better price than Samsung’s S25.
Samsung used to be good. I used to always buy samsung but since I can’t affort a “high end” device, I go with the medium end ones, and samsung medium end ones are terrible for the price. So instead of getting a medium end samsung, you can get something better and cheaper on another brand
Samsung always seems to have the paradigm of good hardware with shitty software, and with their recent phones they seem to manage to enshittify both.
So you either need to put a custom/global rom on it, get the hk version, or pay like 20% more for a global version.
Bonus problems, AT&T in the US kicked off the international phone versions a while back. They worked fine. I have a bunch of leftover G4 international versions that they up and banned one day around 2020. The terrible US version remained allowed.
LOL. Chinese phones are way worse, they simply block installations of “unsanctioned” apps with no workaround.
My wife is Chinese and I used to live there for 7 years, it’s an absolute privacy nightmare.
If you dont want to put a custom rom on it (which is becoming increasingly difficult), you’re can buy a HK version off taobao.
Way easier to install a custom rom
Apart from Xiaomi and OnePlus, which are released for international audiences, I’m not aware of a single Chinese phone with active rom development.
Honor, Huawei, Poco, Oppo, …the list goes on.
Oppo = OnePlus
Huawei bootlaoders can’t be unlocked, so absolutely no custom ROM there.
Honor bootlaoders can’t be unlocked, so absolutely no custom ROM there.
Poco seems possible for now, never used one of their phones, but well good that there’s something possible.
I have a Xiaomi 14 pro, I just have to tap the correct button to install an outside app. (It’s in Chinese, even though the phone is set to English, so i have no idea what it says but it gets me there).
If you bought it outside of China that might be a thing, for Chinese phones it shows a cancel button only. There is a confirm button, but it’s greyed out and not clickable.
So I bought it from giztop, they take the Chinese version of the phone, get the Google play store on there and get it set to English, plus a couple other things, so that it’s easier for you to get started with. I bought this because I had thought they’d make a global version and I could flash that rom when that happened, and only deal with some Chinese sections of the phone for a short while, but for some reason they didn’t with this specific phone, they did for the 14 ultra.
I busted the phone out again to see the popup I was talking about, but actually one of the (semi) recent updates made it so the buttons are english. I am allowed to just install things with a few pop-up warnings and the phone does some kind of check. I wonder if it’s because it’s an “unlocked” phone (I don’t know if it’s the same in China where a carrier locks the phone to their network and has their own shit installed if you buy it from them) or what.
Either way, interesting.
As someone who uses a Xiaomi phone, that’s not true.
It was a faff getting it to install any random apk I found of off the Internet, but it was possible. Did involve holding down a graphic for 10 seconds as part of the unlock procedure.
But for now at least, you can still install any unsigned apk without going through a store.
So many people don’t understand this at all. China is still the same as when the tanks were rolling over college students.
What does this mean for F-Droid?
Every developer wishing to offer applications on F-Droid will have to register their identities and package names to Google for Android devices to install their apps, regardless of the distribution platform (F-Droid, Obtainium, GitHub releases, etc.)
google can unilaterally decide if they dont like it, they cant have it in the store.
Doesn’t fdroid build everything from source (in the main repo)? There’s no way Google would allow them to do that with their own developer keys.
Apple does
You can only install an app you made for a week until you have to resign it.
It’s shit.
So looks like graphene is the future. Away from android and iOS. Any other alternatives OS and phone to look at?
Graphene is locked to google hardware, so google effectively holds the keys to graphene too
Only because Graphene is about using a security chip.
Lineage isn’t, so runs on more devices. I’d argue most people don’t have risks that require the security of Graphene.
But the moment another phone manufacturer decides to use a similar security chip, Graphene will be on it.
I understand what you mean, as in GrapheneOS is a bit dependent on Google right now allowing third-party OS support. But, you have used words which actually mean something different in the software world. Keys often refers to signing keys for software and it’s important to note that Google doesn’t control those keys for GrapheneOS at all. GrapheneOS owns the keys, and signs all of their builds locally.
lineageos does support far more phone vendors; who knows what pixel phones will be like in the future
I’m hoping on fairphone to get graphene support 🤷
Thanks!
They won’t get GrapheneOS support becuase they don’t meet the hardware requirements: https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-support They are actually very far removed from meeting them, compared to OEMs like Samsung.
Graphene is also based on AOSP, which Google makes worse on purpose. I don’t think they’ll allow other devices to exist forever, or rather not in a way that’s compatible with “real” Android (aka Google-infested). The only proper solution is to focus fully on the new Linux Mobile ecosystem and become independent from Google-maintained shit (and hardware - Graphene is based on Google Pixels, they literally exist at the mercy of Google). Otherwise they will fuck you over again and again. Not saying getting Linux Mobile on par will be easy, but it’s our only true, permanent option aside from rejecting smartphones altogether.
That’s true. Fair point.
Now I’m wondering if Harmony OS is going to break out of China.
Isn’t graphene having a challenging future because they have vendor locked themselves into pixel phones and said vendor is pulling the rug by not providing drivers going forward?
GrapheneOS has largely worked around this by automating creating device support themselves using “adevtool”. The current Pixels’ hardware supports installing third-party OSes and will continue to do so, they will support those Pixels until EOL. For future Pixels (Pixel 10 series has not yet launched, only available for pre-order), it remains to be seen whether they still fully support installing third-party OSes. If they do, GrapheneOS will also support them, but it might take much longer to implement device support because they need to make this by themselves and this is more difficult doing it from scratch than being able to use the old Android device support for it as a base, like they could do for the existing devices when Google did their rugpull.
They have not really vendor locked themselves for the future. They have hardware requirements listed in their FAQ: https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-support Google just happened to be the only company meeting those requirements, which weren’t even that strict, becuase other OEMs just didn’t prioritize security.
But, there is good news. GrapheneOS is currently in active talks with a major Android OEM right now in order to help them meet the security requirements for a subset of their future devices. They are very optimistic about that.
Google just happened to be the only company meeting those requirements
I don’t know. They designed the requirements in a way that only Google met them. It didn’t “happen” to meet them after the fact.
It’s like demanding yellow hard hats on a construction site. Sure, they are safe and highly visible. Would it make sense to allow black hard hats as well if it means not locking into a single vendor and try pushing for high vis while having a stronger base? And also working around the issue with a vest? I don’t know the answer to that but it’s clear that they have made a conscious decision to move into the situation that they now find themselves in.
They are literally talking with a major OEM right now to help them meet their requirements so what you say does not make any sense. They aren’t purposefully making requirements so only Pixels would fit them. The current hardware ecosystem is just bad with regard to security. Many GrapheneOS features depend on certain hardware security features being present, if they would also support lesser secure deivces, they would have to rip out too many fundamental features of GrapheneOS. That would go against the purpose of GrapheneOS, which is delivering a secure, private and usability mobile OS.
I didn’t say they need to rip something out. I didn’t say their current efforts to open up weren’t valid. I specifically said that I don’t know whether it would have made sense to start with reduced requirements.
I just stated that they didn’t “happen” to only support Google. I simply acknowledged how they knew exactly that the standard they were writing would only be matched by one vendor as they were writing it.
They were written at some moment in time and major vendors often have multiple moments during the year when they release new phones. Even if GrapheneOS, while writing down the requirements, realized that only 1 brand met them at that time, they were still assuming and hoping other brands could also easily meet them in the time following. The main problem here was that other brands didn’t seem to care. After hardware memory tagging was added to the ARM platform and Pixels immediatelly adopted this, GrapheneOS added it to the requirements, because it was such a subsantial feature that could outrule a large number of vulnerabilities. But, they have communicated multiple times across social media that they were willing to be much less strict about that requirement because earlier phones also didn’t have to meet them and because Qualcomm didn’t add ARM yet to their SoCs. They said back then they would be willing to support a Samsung phone if it would meet everything except for memory tagging (the main problem for Samsung is lack of proper third-party OS support). So, I think they’ve tried their best, to be honest. The current talks with the OEM I was talking abour earlier, also aren’t the first time they do those efforts. They’ve had contact with OEMs in the past to try to push them towards meeting the requirements, but the efforts happened to fail. The negligence of other brands is just really that big. In the tech space, sadly, only Apple and Google seem to truly care about security, spending money on it, and hiring sufficiently large teams of security researchers. I really hope, together with you, that this will change 🙏 .
I agree, the ecosystem seems to be focusing too much on hype and not enough on a strong and secure foundation. I’m still hoping for the best but I feel must more hopeful towards Linux on mobile devices. They are moving at an excruciatingly slow pace, though. Not enough resources and hands.
Can we have mainstream Linux phones now. Fairphone is nice
If you’re technical enough to sideload Android apps, you’re probably technical enough to install Graphene too.
Sidelading apps on android is never technical anyone could install an apk. It’s just the safety that you need to be technical when doing so. Also fuck my phone which doesn’t allow unlockibg bootloader
At least on Samsung phones, they used to have you open the Settings (this is enough to deter 50% of non technical users) and look for an allow button which is protected by two fullscreen danger warnings (there goes the other 50%)
Mine is vivo, and there is no known way of safely unlocking bootloader
You’re over estimating common users
All my homies know how to install apks. Almost nobody knows to install custom roms, let alone the phone having ability to install so
If you have a compatible phone. As long as the allow those compatible phones to be made.
*if you have a Pixel device (that aren’t that great, actually).
Pixels are good, what are you talking about?
For the price, hardware-wise are underwhelming (see benchmarks).
I daily drive a Pixel 8 Pro and it’s never felt underpowered to me. I have no need or desire to look at benchmarks.
It’s a fair point to make to say they’re expensive, but that’s not really relevant to their actual quality or performance, both of which are fine. And the used market seems pretty good for these things, too.
I have no issue with my older Pixel devices. You’re use-case isn’t everyone’s use-case.
If you can’t have Graphene or Calyx (once they’re back up) there’s still /e/OS, they also got a 1-Click Installer for a few devices. As well as a how-to for several hundred. And iodeOS I guess.
…if bootloader unlocking will be allowed…
*if google /OEMs still provide drivers for AOSP (check calyxos blog, google stopped doing it and it is killing custom ROMS)
A pixel phone is something like 9 months of minimum wage in my country.
If google is gonna ban sideloading, surely they will lock their bootloaders first.
Leaving in the bootloader unlock gives people who want to retain sideloading a place to retreat to that google still ultimately controls. Which is more appealing to a sociopathic corporation than cutting people off entirely
I see it this way.
Google wants everyone using gapps to be identified but isn’t outright saying you can’t use Android without certification.
“Google says that only apps with verified identities will be installable on certified Android devices, which is virtually every Android-based device—if it has Google services on it, it’s a certified device”
So LOS and Graphene may get off the hook on this and be able to install whatever non-google apps they need. By default, neither have google services.
Sucks for the gapps people, but, I mean. They knew it was coming, right?
But the point is, manufacturers will comply because otherwise their phones won’t sell.
Looks to me like they’ve been complying for 20 years or so. No real change needed on their part.
Even I was able to get GrapheneOS running on my old Pixel >.>
Surely that means they’ll allow more apps onto their own app store with that, right? Right?
This is complete BS
Google can get fucked. I feel like there will be a nontrivial market for de-googled or older and unlocked Android phones after this. If they manage to kill off custom roms with their previous AOSP rug pull I’ll go back to using a (subpar) Linux phone or maybe even one of those cheap flip phones.
I started joking that my next phone will be a Nokia 3310. I feel more and more each day like that should just be my actual next phone
Funny enough, Nokia started making cheap flip phones and some others in that form factor again. My daughter asked to replace her smartphone with one of the flip phones. It was only $70, so I got her one. It’s build quality is what you would expect, but it works and has GPS at least.
They even actually re-released a version of the 3310 a few years back. I still have my old Garmin knocking about, wonder if it’s got updated maps if I got a model without GPS.
It even runs WhatsApp and Signal now, or at least, that was the plan a while back. And it’s only like 60 euros or something. Perfect for multiple day festivals and camping trips at least.
It no longer runs WhatsApp, actually. The new version of the OS (KaiOS which is a fork of the dead Firefox OS) broke compatibility and Meta apparently decided to not bother with supporting it.
Which model is that exactly? I’d love a “dumb” phone with Signal.
I’m confused. I read an article about the new 3310 getting the ability to install apps, a long time ago. I found an article on how to do so, but it doesn’t look like the 3310 screen in the screenshots but a general android OS. I thought it had a simplified OS, either their own or a stripped down android (unsure) as it has a tiny screen.
It’s the Nokia 3310 4G model according to this article. But it might be a generic article in which they have the phone model automatically generated by the one you search for?
In case you’re curious, the Nokia flip phone I got my daughter is the Nokia 2780 Flip.
There’s more and more people who feel just like you do. I’m so exhausted of all these companies being predatory and anti consumer. I’m the type to stand my ground and abstain or find alternatives, but it feels like there’s 5 people who don’t care and 4 people who will just let it go for every person willing to boycott bullshit.
Yes there are dozens of people who care. The vast majority of people never sideload.
I’m making a statement about companies in general. People are just so willing to bend over and take it. In my mind people used to have more gumption, but I’m probably overestimating how much was individuals vs how the media portrayed things.
Feels like if Upton Sinclair released “the jungle” today we’d all collectively say “oh well, guess we’re eating rats and formaldehyde.”
Don’t worry we can just install Graphene OS on Pixel phones, there is no problem with my plan !
feels funny that you have to buy a phone from google to get around google’s actions…
I’m sure it’s just a fortuitous coincidence and nothing to be worried about
How can that be legal?
Because Apple does it
Fuck.
As Samsung is blocking custom ROMs with OneUI 8, I seriously need to look into alternatives. Does anyone have good experience with a custom ROM on a S25 Ultra? The only thing I really worry about are my banking apps. I need those to work.
I use /e/OS, my office mate uses Graphene. All our banking apps (I have like 3, lol) work flawlessly. However, once you go down this road, there is always a chance that they stop working in the future, as Google introduces more bullshit like this or Play Integrity.
Just use apps like Hermit or Native Alpha and use the banking website like an app.
people might have to considered a stock android just to use the bank apps on a cheap phone, and one for personal use.
I just use my banking through the web UI. Why do you need an app for it? If it’s for check deposits, try using an old phone as a dedicated banking device.
If you don’t use apps that depend on Google services, consider deGoogling your phone.
true too, i use my banking app mostly on the PC anyways, because i can just block thier ability with adblockers, tracking,etc.
