E: apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate. Please don’t be one of the 34 people that replied to tell me Linux is not ready.
Android has always been a fairly open platform, especially if you were deliberate about getting it that way, but we’ve seen in recent months an extremely rapid devolution of the Android ecosystem:
- The closing of development of an increasing number of components in AOSP.
- Samsung, Xiaomi and OnePlus have removed the option of bootloader unlocking on all of their devices. I suspect Google is not far behind.
- Google implementing Play Integrity API and encouraging developers to implement it. Notably the EU’s own identity verification wallet requires this, in stark contrast to their own laws and policies, despite the protest of hundreds on Github.
- And finally, the mandatory implementation of developer verification across Android systems. Yes, if you’re running a 3rd-party OS like GOS you won’t be directly affected by this, but it will impact 99.9% of devices, and I foresee many open source developers just opting out of developing apps for Android entirely as a result. We’ve already seen SyncThing simply discontinue development for this reason, citing issues with Google Play Store. They’ve also repeatedly denied updates for NextCloud with no explanation, only restoring it after mass outcry. And we’ve already seen Google targeting any software intended to circumvent ads, labeling them in the system as “dangerous” and “untrusted”. This will most certainly carry into their new “verification” system.
Google once competed with Apple for customers. But in a world where Google walks away from the biggest antitrust trial since 1998 with yet another slap on the wrist, competition is dead, and Google is taking notes from Apple about what they can legally get away with.
Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement.
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I went with a Sonim XP3Plus flip phone
This is how I solved the modern tech problem.
You didn’t solve any problems, you just opted out of a whole bunch of features.
He did solve a problem, his problem. What’s the deal with thinking everything that applies to you applies to others?
No problems were solved.
That’s your best answer? “No problems we’re solved because I said so”? 🤣🤣🤣
No wonder you sound so angry here, lol.
No problems were solved because they weren’t solved. I know that may be hard for you to wrap your head around.
It is, very.
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I did solve the problem; by choosing not to bother with it
Walking away does not solve the problem. It just makes it no longer your problem. Everyone else still has to deal with it. Not everyone has that privilege.
If we all stopped the world would adapt. The council let the street signs rot because everyone is on gmaps, restaurants stopped having menus just qr codes, places in England were you get kicked out if you insist to pay by cash.
All of it would be reversed if… we reversed A pipe dream but weirder things happened
If we all stopped
Okay well let me know when you get everyone to stop. Until then…
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They did reverse the cash ting at the pub, every day a different customer would have a proper argument about it. Don’t ask why I was there everyday tho
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It’s a pub. I think there should be no questions 🤣
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Yes and no. Some of us actually need our phones to accomplish things. Work, primarily. As people mentioned elsewhere, simple things like accessing their banking accounts. I wish we didn’t, but we do.
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I’d never do banking on a smartphone; not in a million years.
They’re not doing it by choice. The phone is used as mandatory authentication to access the account.
One theft or hack in public, and all your money and data are at risk
…and how do you suppose your laptop is immune from this? Or your desktop, even?
that’s the aspect you want to keep avoiding.
I’m not avoiding anything. What you fail to understand is that not everyone’s situation is the same as yours. For some of us, these things are outside of our control.
😬 I’m writing this on my pixel 3… What happened??
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My wife’s pixel 3 just busted without any warning a few years ago. PLEASE be sure to have backups of your things and passwords. At the time they didn’t remember their password and was only logged in on their phone. We were able to recover through my email but it wasn’t a recovery address so it was really scary.
The worst part is we already had a family password manager they weren’t using, so it was very difficult to not make it seem like an “I told you so” moment, but they’re on it now and have backups and stuff.
But yeah. We took it to some phone repair guy and he tried a bunch of different stuff. The motherboard just failed or something. No way to extract anything. He said it happened a lot with that model (well, he’s only seeing the bad ones but still).
2 weeks? That’s awesome. SM6115 and 2300mAh. My Lenovo P11 with LineageOS(GSI) also has a SM6115 with much bigger battery and only gives about 4 days idle… Are you using some technique for longer battery time?
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Cool, not sure why it doesn’t work for me :/ I only turn on wifi about once a week to sync new books from my server since I use it as an offline ebook reader.
Haven’t had a pixel 3, but do have a pixel 2. Running stock rom because verizon and degoogled with adb and wifi off, only used for occasional quick photo shoots. The battery also only goes for about 3 days.
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I don’t agree!
A linux phone, or any other open source alternative, has ALWAYS been more important than the ones we’ve got. Being locked into an eco-system, has always been bad for the regular user. It’s about companies controlling people and the market, and it should never have to be a choice between a rock and a hard place.
I really wish that the Firefox phone had gained more support. And I wish that there will soon be a linux-phone for the regular person, all over the world.
But I guess people in general keep choosing to lock themselves in, by using Google and Apple…
The problem with them is that they’re only available on their respective site. And so they have limited exposure. If they were available at a local store, then the people would notice them. Same with Fairphones, Frameworks and with any brand that is pro-environment.
Android is Linux
the vast majority of commenters here either have no direct experience with a Linux phone or have seen some shallow youtube “review” of a dude swiping the same two screens left/right and extrapolate a buncha shit that has no contact with reality.
presently, and in the foreseeable future, linux phones aren’t an android alternative, they are just linux on the phone, i.e. they allow you to do linux shit on a handheld device.
like, the bleeding edge version of any variant (plasma mobile, gnome, phosh) isn’t even close to an Android phone from like 2015, let alone a modern one.
and that’s before we touch on the pillars of mobile tech like fluidity, battery efficiency, reliability, etc., none of those things are even in a remotely passable state, not to mention - using the thing to make calls. you are better off forgetting about the camera, as well.
and the reason is simple, not only is there a gargantuan discrepancy between evil corp’s resources and the predominantly unpaid enthusiasts, each dev team’s reimplementing shit that’s already solved on another platform. apple doesn’t have to do that. google as well.
then there’s the idea that the javascript-backed Gnome - that has issues running fluidly on super-capable hardware - is the basis on a low-power device on which the linux mobile phone experience is built. reinventing solved shit, but in a stupid way - THREE FINGER swipe on a phone, really?
although there’s a solid app base, the apps that are supposedly mobile friendly are few and far between, most are just downright unusable on a vertical screen and dog help you if launch an electron app. firefox, even with pmOS patches (useless without) is tiresome to use. you can forget about dating, ubering, banking, or even just using a messenger everybody else does.
if you’re squeamish about flashing custom recoveries and ROMs, the e.g. pmOS install process is way, way, way more involved and failure prone. if you go with ubuntu touch or mobian, even more so.
finally, if you’re talking about a device that you’ve grown accustomed to to the extent that you’re using it subconsciously, swiping and multitasking and such whilst walking and dodging other pedestrians - no such thing exists over here.
I’m just tying this up because I keep reading about “switching”, people are either delusional or misinformed, there’s nothing (yet) to switch to.
get a couple of $50 ex-flaghips to play with, flash lineageOS on one and pmOS on the other and that should hold you over for a coupla years.
Google’s ongoing Android lockdown feels like the end of an era, with the understanding that eras don’t end overnight. They fade away slowly.
Definitely going to be trying for some kind of linux phone for my next one.
Debating biting the bullet on the ~$800 cost of a fairphone.
i know it is still google, but i just started searching ebay for a used pixel 9 - looks like they are around $400-500 (pixel 10 came out last month). i figure getting graphene os on one of these may be an inexpensive path forward… still looking for good options, tho.
i’ll have to check out fairphone. i remember something about them not being available in the US, but that may be old news.
There’s a distributor, Murena, selling the Fairphone 4 and Fairphone 6 in the U.S. now. The Fairphone isn’t fully usable with Linux yet, though. Calls, camera, and GPS all still apparently aren’t working 100% with postmarket OS. I’m not aware of any other distribution that does any better. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Category:Fairphone
Ubuntu Touch supports the FP4 & FP5 quite well: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/
Oh nice! That is very encouraging.
oof, no wifi is kind of a dealbreaker for me; i have a home server and really dont want to have to be VPN’d into my home all the time :(
looks like fairphone 6 doesnt have much support on postmarket yet, but i’ll keep an eye on it - ty <3
Yeah, I don’t think the Fairphone 6 is quite ready. In fact, since none of the previous Fairphone models ever got to full Linux usability, I don’t really expect it to happen.
I think the best option – and really the only option – right now is the Furilabs FLX1. I’m planning on getting one soon.
I want one, too, as soon as the second batch is available. I hope there are some left after all the pre-orders are sent out.
I was looking into Fairphone and got sketched out, they do not really seem particularly trustworthy or competent.
For example: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private
Oof
My next phone will be a ThinkPad because it has a SIM card slot.
Is it possible to have my normal shitty samsung for stuff that wont work on a linux phone, and have like a pinephone for simple calls and stuff, but have them both use the same phone # ? I doubt.
Cuz when hiking or something I like a phone for safety but I dont want distractions.
It would be cool to see people move beyond the standard smartphone and into some sort of hotspot and linux based palmtop or umpc like setup
I had something like that in the early 2000s with a nokia n800 and it worked well enough I’m sure it would be even better now
Are there any Linux mobile OSs that do not use a compatibility layer with Android underneath it?
I tried Ubuntu Touch a couple of years ago and couldn’t get mobile data working with UK provider but apart from that it was very cool.
Yes, Ubuntu Touch is one of them. I listed more elsewhere.
I have a Pixel 9 Pro which is supposed to get security updates until 2031 but at the pace Google is closing Android down I wonder if it will even be viable to stay on an AOSP degoogled ROM until then.
I feel like the future is leading us to a place where we will have to reduce our mobile computing to a trusted but slow and unreliable main phone while keeping a secondary mainstream device for banking/government apps.
GrapheneOS
I also think disconnecting the concepts of “pocket computer” and “always-on two way radio with location tracking and internet connectivity” are things you could put in different physical devices.
Just gotta work out how to get internet on the pocket computer, so I can do mobile banking and cab bookings on the go.
My next phone will run Linux, even if it is inconvenient.
As soon as this phone is paid off, I’ll be changing from Google Fi as well. Which sucks because it’s hella cheap.
I switched from Google Fi to the T- Mobile MI30TI plan (30GB/month, $10/month, data-only) with JMP.Chat VOIP and couldn’t be happier
Worth noting that some services will reject VoIP phone numbers.
JMP also explicitly states that it doesn’t work for emergency calls.
100% agree. It’s worth testing with a new number first before porting your current number to JMP.Chat
Do you need a phone plan at all for emergency calling? It’s required for all carriers to take 911 calls in Canada.
That’s a good question. You don’t need a phone plan but I think you do still need some way to communicate with the towers. If you do like jevans (data plan only), I suspect there will be no calling functionality at all. Emergency or otherwise. But I could be wrong. Take out your SIM card and call 911 and let me know haha.
It works in Canada without a SIM. I know because my son did it on his “wifi-only” tablet.
I’ll have to look into it. 30GB isn’t bad at all. I think I have unlimited now with text and phone for only like $10 more a month. I’d have to look, it’s been a while since i’ve dealt with it.
What options are you looking into as far as a Fi replacement? I’m also on Fi and want to ditch them, and the Pixel soon.
I’m on Mint.
T-Mobile acquired them, per the usual bullshit, but I get 15GB a month with unlimited talk and text for “$20” a month. The catch is that you pay yearly in bulk for that price. Had it a year and change. Been solid.
I’m likely going to go to t-mobile as they’re cheap from what I understand and they make up a big part of the network that google leases, along with (i think) US Cellular, or something similar.
That said, I’ve got about a year to decide, unless someone decides to hire me and then I can pay my phone off early.
As someone dailying a Linux phone, I will say that there were no issues getting it to work on T-Mobile. The only thing I did was manually enter the APN details, but that was an OS thing.
From what I have seen on forums Verizon won’t let you at all, and AT&T might take a bit of work to get them to whitelist the IMEI on their network.
at&t collects any and all data they can and sells it directly to law enforcment and the government btw. im pretty sure they all sell your data, but at&t has illegal deals with the government
go w an mvno; they’re usually cheaper and it rob the carriers of profit.
and the carriers deserve it for blacklisting chinese smartphones from their networks in collusion with the us gov’t in order to prevent chinese tech from entering the us like they’re doing with EV’s and solar panels using tariffs.
Good luck! Hope you get hired soon.
thanks! me too lol
My family just switched from T-Mobile, as they’ve been jacking up prices lately, and without good reason, considering other carriers have better reception anyway.
What’d you switch to?
apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate.I switched to Visible Wireless for now.
They’re asking what provider you switched to, not what phone.
Duh, thank you. Photon makes it hard to see context now.
I like us mobile alot. Well priced too
I’m with you, I’ve switched all my computers to Linux for similar reasons. I bought an android phone recently and put Linux on that, although still some things to iron out such as sound and microphone input but it’s working well otherwise. Looking forward to when I can ditch my iPhone.
what phone and os do you have? im currently shopping and have always been on android; im looking for recommendations on both phones and os <3
I have the Nothing Phone 1, running my fork of Mobile NixOS. I bought it because I wanted a bit of a challenge to get it running Linux and it’s relatively newer then other better supported Linux phones. I don’t recommend it for anyone who is new to Linux.
If you’re relatively new to Linux and want something that’s more compatible, I recommend looking at the OnePlus 6 or 6T. They have pretty good support for multiple different distros.
same. There is one windows computer still in this house and it’s unplugged. Everything else is Linux, Android, or FreeBSD based.
I’ve switched as well but didn’t realize you could put Linux on an android device. Is it a specific distro and can you throw it on an old android tablet?
There are several distros. You do need to ensure (as listed in the OP) that your bootloader is unlockable (listed as “OEM unlock” in Android).
- SailfishOS
- Ubuntu Touch
- Mobian
- PostmarketOS
- Manjaro ARM
Is it true that the top 2 in your list have the most features?
Interesting. I’ve seen Sailfish mentioned before, I’ll look into it. I’ve got a couple old tablets to mess around with, seems like a fun project. Thanks for the info!
I think they are very device specific. Like only a handful of specific phones have builds for these OS.
Take a look into PostMarketOS, they are the bleeding edge for Linux mobile development. You can search on their wiki if your phone is supported.
The other solutions listed might be more turn key but not close to mainline Linux. (Custom kernel, etc)
They don’t seem to have any supported devices apart from community contributions?
“These are the most supported devices, maintained by at least 2 people and have the functions you expect from the device running its normal OS, such as calling on a phone, working audio, and a functional UI. Besides QEMU devices, this is currently empty.”Yeah I wasn’t kidding about bleeding edge. It’s a double edged sword. You get more compatibility across a wide range of devices but it might now be 100% polished, yet.
To be fair, as most things in Linux, they are community developed. The community supported devices are supported by people who are taking their personal time to develop Linux to support these devices. You can view each individual device in the wiki to see how much support they have.
It’s all what you’re comfortable with, I still daily drive my iPhone as I need a very reliable device for my work. But I definitely rock my Linux phone when I can.
Wow, surprised to see the old Samsung Galaxy S3 on there. Looks like I’ve got a project coming up
You can’t sideload in Linux.
On linux it’s just called running an executable
Edit: As a less snarky answer, you can run Android apps natively on linux by installing Android OS in a container using something like
AnboxWaydroid.
As soon as this phone is paid off
What? People finance phones? 🤣
Yes, some of us have good credit.
I don’t but it doesn’t mean I’m better than other people who do
Mint and US Mobile are both good alternatives to Fi. US Mobile is a bit more flexible since you can use any of the major US carriers.
Ill address your issues with Android and then ill give my issues with mobile Linux:
1
Yeah this is bad but not even devastating for custom roms like GOS or LineageOS
2
I highly doubt Google would lock the bootloader, they still make the most friendly devices for custom roms (yes even after all they have done). Also Samsung hasnt acturally allowed custom roms for a while now while Xiaomi doesn’t either.
3
- Google implementing Play Integrity API and encouraging developers to implement it. Notably the EU’s own identity verification wallet requires this, in stark contrast to their own laws and policies, despite the protest of hundreds on Github.
Even if a developer used the Play Integrity API it doesn’t mean custom roms or other operating systems like GOS arent supported. I use GOS and have had no issues with play integrity, there are no incentives to require a certified Android device.
4
- And finally, the mandatory implementation of developer verification across Android systems. Yes, if you’re running a 3rd-party OS like GOS you won’t be directly affected by this, but it will impact 99.9% of devices, and I foresee many open source developers just opting out of developing apps for Android entirely as a result.
Sideloading isnt going anywhere and tbh I doubt this will be strongly enforced, Google will always have the threat of root resurfacing. You dont even need root to get rid of Google Play services and install MicroG.
Conclusion
Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement.
That seems highly unlikely, even with everything Google has done the fact is AOSP is the only mature open source mobile project.
Now ill get to my issues with mobile Linux:
Hardware
As of now there is no good hardware and no plans by any company to make good hardware in the future.
UI
Mobile Linux interfaces are at least a decade behind Android, clunky and bearly usable. Btw yes I have tried them recently, they suck. For the most part mobile Linux interfaces are made by developers who would never acturally daily drive them.
Software support
Not a lot of Linux software supports arm and those that do either don’t work with touchscreens or have them as an afterthought.
UX
The software that does work generals isnt designed with small screens in mind and are very often scaled down desktop apps
Basic functionality
Basic functionality is absolutely not there on Linux phones, things like calling and texing either require commands or outright dont work at all. For example according to the Postmarketos Wiki in order to change volume on a Pixel 3a during a call you need to manually change it with commands. Genuenly what the fuck, if im on an important call the other person isnt going to wait several hours for me to fiddle with the terminal. If I need to send a text now im not waiting several hours until it works.
Security
Mobile Linux has all the security issues as Linux with no mitigations, except phones contain a lot more personal information and are more likley to be a target for data extraction.
The main problem is that mobile OS is simply not useful without banking or government apps and they won’t ever appear on FOSS systems because giving control to user is exactly the opposite of what’s in their interest.
Which is an odd take as when I statted using “smart phones” not a singke.one supported apps from banks or government,.yet here we arw.
I don’t understand why people need banking apps on their phone. I only ever access my banking info from the PC…
2fa with a banking app, a lot of banks work that way
That’s insane. They don’t have TOTP? Or Passkeys? Or (God forbid) SMS or email verification? The only 2FA option is using their shitty app? I think I’d rather switch banks…
Vancity credit union uses standard TOTP. But RBC uses their stupid app where I live.
It became hard to do that in my country. I changed banks twice in a year because they became shit but even the third one uses its app as 2fa. At least it is a better bank…
None of my banks (a couple French and Belgian ones) seem to support anything but auth via app. Can’t log in on my computer without my phone.
I know Credit Mutuel can provide you a physical card with a bunch of codes of which one is selected at random at auth time
Had family use it because they had a Huawei phoneInteresting! Maybe it’s worth switching banks, at least once I get the courage to move to Linux mobile.
it’s not really a need, it’s more an imposition. we’re forced to do everything via the app
If it is what the user wants, then it is a factor for adoption. It is a hard sell to say “yes it can only perform half the stuff you usually do with a phone, but you don’t need that anyways”. It comes across as condescending, too.
My intent is not to be condescending. It is to make people aware of the fact that they have a choice: They can choose to subject themselves to increasingly-closed and exploitative platforms, or they can choose the extremely minor (I would argue non) inconvenience of using the browser or another computer to access their banking information.
In Sweden many parts of society requires an app called BankID. We authenticate getting mail packages, sign contracts, book a time in health care, etc with this app. It’s needed everywhere. Buying a bus ticket. A phone without this app is not sufficient to function in swedish society.
Interesting. I’m an online notary. I sign papers with essentially an encrypted certificate from my Linux PC.
Sounds a bit dystopian
A little bit yes, since the BankID is owned by private companies. There are those who are working on a free software version and some people think that the government should have an official authentication app free from private interests. But it’s been hard to make people aware and care about these issues. It’s like the xkcd worlds smallest open source violin. At the same time, many things that relate to proving that I am me has become very convenient in this society. For example I moved to a new apartment and they just sent a link to the contract and I signed it with the app and that was that, I did my taxes by just checking that the info they had was correct and signed it on my phone, etc.
Aren’t you able to get a dongle for 2fa like in Denmark? We have MitID but you can easily get a dongle so you don’t need a phone
Yes, true. But then you need to carry an extra device. I know it’s just inconvenience.
I had nothing but problems with banking apps. Can’t do anything if location is off, or it doesn’t like your IP, or if it thinks you have rooting software installed. And if it doesn’t work right, no one at the bank knows how to help. I just stopped using them, eventually.
If only banks could figure out how security works…
and you can do it from your phone too using a browser other than android-chrome or ios-safari.
Convenience and the ability to back outside the comforts of my own home.
Many cheaper online banks rely on their mobile app. Your debit card will not work wirhout an in-app confirmation. There’s no web interface (“not secure enough”).
Can I switch banks and make my life less convenient? Sure. Would I do it just to stick it to google? No.
In my country, for all the banks I use, I need to have an app on my phone to access their website with my Linux computer.
So a Linux phone would need to provide this as I can’t be without access to my accounts.
I need to have an app on my phone to access their website with my Linux computer
Wat.
thats pretty common, in my country as well.
like a two factor authentication. but without TOTP. but with a proprietary app by the bank provided.
Ohhh right. Yeah that’s weird. Like I said elsewhere, I would find a new bank if I had that problem.
Yeah it’s part of the 2 factors authentification process.
Back in the days you received some card reader generating a code, but that ain’t the case anymore…
So Linux would need to have a native version of these apps or a way to efficiently emulate Android or iOS.
Those card readers are called TOTP and we can do that with apps now. Not like the specific app in question but just like a standard password manager that stores all your TOTPs.
I didn’t know this. But I guess the bank has to allow it.
Last time I checked my banks were only allowing you to do such things through an app or at the bank (which is far from my village).
