I’ve been seeing this more and more in comments, and it’s got me wondering just how big this issue really is. A lot of people feel trapped in apps like Discord, WhatsApp, and Instagram, but can’t get their friends to leave.
It’s really annoying when you suggest trying something new, whether it’s a different app or just not using these platforms so much but sometimes it can feel like no one wants to go first.
So I’m curious, what apps do you feel most trapped in? And have you tried convincing your friends to leave them? What happened? Is it an issue for you, or are you just going along with the flow?
Looking forward to hearing if this is as common as it feels!
I don’t have very many friends, although of the ones I do have the majority of them use Signal, or are terrified of recent politics and I’m trying to move them over currently. I’m not concerned about platform lock-in for communicating over proprietary platforms since if something happens we can just move, I am concerned about the security implications.
Because people keep pushing for them to completely leave a platform.
Instead try to get them to dual-use platforms.
One of the big problems nowadays is proprietary protocols. Back in the day, you could have a single client that could talk to different networks. Today you have to run a bunch of separate apps, and what’s worse is that a lot of them are built with stuff like Electron that’s resource hungry.
Even the FOSS apps don’t all get along.
Conversations is great for XMPP, and it can act as a UnifiedPush pusher, but AFAICT it doesn’t support other protocols and it doesn’t act as a UnifiedPush subscriber.
So running 2 chat protocols, one being the well-support app Conversations on the well-supported protocol XMPP, means 2 push setups and 2 apps. Bleh.
I would like to see an architecture where the expensive app side of things is separated from the protocol. But that’s all speculative, I haven’t put work hours into it. Basically, if I have an idea for P2P chat, why do I need to re-invent emojis and channels and shit like that? I only want to iterate on transport. And if I have a better idea for channels, why would I have to re-invent the transport like XMPP and Matrix?
(The reason is that cutting those two apart is hard - But I will continue to wonder.)
Oh yeah the whole thing is a mess. It kind of blows my mind that we still don’t have a single common protocol that at least the open source world agrees on. Like there is a more or less fixed set of things chat apps need to do, we should be able to agree on something akin to ActivityPub here as a base.
This is the way. I this case they get to “feel” those other options themselves, and even if you are the one that put that seed in their head, they are the ones making that final decision based on their own needs, capabilities and preferences.
Chasing the hot new app that was created by some one-person dev team for “privacy” reasons is a little like chasing amy. You are looking for an ideal app that doesn’t exist, so you can’t really suggest a better alternative. Instead you are just nagging people for using discord or imessage even though those apps are perfectly fine for 99% of people. Even privacy focused people. imessaage specifically is great for privacy and unless you have strong evidence of an apple installed backdoor for the p2p imessage encryption I’d question why your are against it.
Because it’s unavailable to the vast majority of people?
So because some people can’t use no one should use it? I don’t understand the complaint. Is the hot new 1-man privacy focused app that requires side-loading more accessible?
If it does not require an iPhone yes, side loading is just a few taps away.
But what is this mythical app that needs side loading? There’s matrix apps even on Apple’s app store.
The downvotes around anything suggesting iMessages is always ridiculous to me.
It really is the safest app I know for messaging. Is there some privacy issue of which I’m unaware?
The answer is very simple: iMessage fails to include a libre software license text file, which is the standard that ensures we can maintain control over the software we use. Without this, we’re banned from forking the app, meaning we’re unable to ensure it stays aligned with our privacy values. We need the freedom to fork the software to ensure it meets our needs, not just rely on buzzwords like encryption or P2P.
Without the ability to fork the code, we’re trapped in every decision of its owner. Non-libre software bans us from maintaining the control needed to ensure it meets our privacy standards.
While in the ideal world a non-opensource app would be a deal breaker, in the current world, there is no indication that imessage has any privacy concerns associated with it. It’s not just taking Apple at their word, there have been a lot practical analysis of how the protocol works. Plus the underlying cryptography is sound.
https://security.apple.com/assets/files/Security_analysis_of_the_iMessage_PQ3_protocol_Stebila.pdf <- hosted by Apple.
https://www.douglas.stebila.ca/blog/archives/2024/02/21/imessage-pq3/ <-original author
https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurity25/sec25cycle1-prepub-595-linker.pdf <- Independent analysis of the protocol and implementation.Sure you could claim that actually Apple is lying about how they are securing imessage, but that is a lot of effort when they could just take the Facebook approach and straight up admit that they have the ability to read your texts, much easier, and safer legally.
I never once wrote ‘open source’. I was never writing about that.
Moreover, iMessage requires iOS or similar. Any operating system, iOS, has complete control over its apps, iMessage. iOS fails to include a libre software license text file.
The dangers of this are explained above.
I’m using “open source” colloquially. The point is that your specific nitpick about imessage not having some specific text file and license associated with it, isn’t important in a world where there doesn’t exist an alternative that is nearly as robust and supported. Ultimately you are upset that imessage is run by a corporation (a valid complaint) but there is no indication that the corporation is lying to you about the privacy of their messaging service.
Again, I never once wrote ‘corporation’ or ‘lying’. You have completely mischaracterised what I have written.
I am no tech pioneer so a lot of these phrases mean nothing to me. That doesn’t mean I can’t learn, however.
I’m curious, which specific messaging app allows any of what you’ve listed?
Which phrases?
I ditched meta platforms entirely for signal in 2019, lets say I dont have many close friends anymore haha, my social life is kaput, even my work groupchat is on facebook
I less have an issue with people getting trapped in software they understand is insecure, and more with people who will push shit like telegram and pretend its the most private and secure thing ever invented. If they want to use discord, sure, fine with me. As long as they know not to do their activist work on discord I’m fine with it. People doing activist work/planning over telegram will never make me not cringe.
Signal isn’t something I personally want to use, but its tolerable, and it was doing a good job of replacing telegram in activist spaces I felt, but I’ve recently seen a few different groups using telegram again because they don’t trust signal.
xmpp with omemo is what I wish I could get people to use but uh, well, that just will never happen.
How do you set up XMPP with OMEMO as anonymously as possible? My friend and I would love to video call each other, currently we’re using SimpleX for this, but it’s very buggy. We use Molly for calling and SimpleX for texting, both of us are switching to using Libreboot laptops with QubesOS to communicate :)
I love teaching my friend privacy. He’s really gotten into it, I’ve done a good job making him just as paranoid as I am!
I’m gonna be honest, its been so long since I’ve actually had people to set it up and use it with that even I would need to spend a day and a half figuring out how to set it up again.
Asking people to leave things means they’re losing a line of communication to friends, family, and interest groups who still use those things. It’s probably more productive to ask people to add the services you prefer rather than leave the ones they’re used to.
I’ve encountered some resistance from Americans who use iPhones and hate the idea of adding a third-party messaging app. None of them seem very interested in justifying that position.
Companies like Apple spent a lot to create a switching cost in almost every product. The “bubble” color is also a HUGE thing in the US, and is often times the sole reason for not wanting to leave iMessage.
As someone whose only apple devices are ipads, the big lockin isn’t imessage vs an SMS client. It’s FaceTime vs, Zoom/GMeet/Jitsi. Mind you, it is nice being able to use iMessage with my wife when I have internet, and then swap over to SMS quickly. Sure, my two devices don’t have a persistent conversation, but her device does.
FaceTime vs, Zoom/GMeet/Jitsi
Is the advantage availability among your contacts, or something about the UX?
Holistically it’s UX.
If my wife or others in my life who use Apple want to contact me, they don’t have to go into a specific app and hope that I’m looking at it. They can go into iMessage, click the camera, and poof, a video call starts up. The only software I use that does that otherwise is Discord, and that’s not integrated with SMS/MMS. It’s the connection too (which is just as much part of UX) - I’ve had problems with Zoom or others due to connection strength, but not with FaceTime.
The fact that it’s a “just-works” solution is important.
Literally all of that UX is the same and better in other apps though.
For example, every single part of your description applies to video and text conversations with my SO and friends, except we all use Signal. It “just works”, and better than Facetime because it doesn’t matter what device my SO and friends have.
With Facetime it doesn’t “just work” at all with the large number of people I know who don’t have Apple. That’s a huge disadvantage which means that Facetime UX sucks.
You just said what they said but the opposite. Both are wrong. Being in the same ecosystem is not UX. It’s not something that anyone can design around.
So you don’t consider it an impact on the experience of using a product when it either does or doesn’t function on your device? Sounds like a most basic concept of UX to me, but I dunno what you mean, maybe.
they don’t have to go into a specific app and hope that I’m looking at it
Do the others not ring your phone? I don’t video call often, but when I do it’s usually with Signal, and that definitely rings my phone.
No, my phone (Android) usually has notifications/ringers muted
This sounds like a pretty unusual configuration. I don’t imagine most people can be reached more reliably using an app that only runs on their tablet than apps that run on their phone.
You can do the exact same thing with any of hundreds of different messaging apps. The only advantage is that they’re using the same messaging app, because it comes installed by default, you can’t remove it, and they don’t allow you to replace SMS with anything else. If you use an Android phone, it most likely comes with Google Messages pre-installed, which does the exact same thing.
In other words, it’s nothing to do with “user experience” and everything to do with being in a particular ecosystem.
On Android, I prefer QKSMS, actually.
I use Arch BTW
Certainly, but installing additional messaging apps on a phone has almost no cost on either iPhone or Android. It’s interesting that iPhone users seem to dislike the idea more.
The having to do something is the cost, because they have a perfectly good messaging app already, “why can’t you just use that?”
And that cost is more on Apple’s platform because Apple has been designing it that way since the beginning. It’s the whole reason android users got a different color bubble, not because they had to, but it was a way to identify the person that wasn’t using an iPhone and make them stand out. Making it almost unimaginable to switch to Android for youth who care so much about not being “out” of the group.
And Google has identified this, and put a lot of cringe-worthy effort into addressing it at their Pixel event this time around.
they have a perfectly good messaging app already, “why can’t you just use that?”
Only running on one brand of phone would be the obvious reason here. Installing an additional app seems like a slightly smaller ask than buying a different phone.
It’s not the bubble color. It’s what the bubble color signifies. ie: no rich communication services, no high quality video or audio calls, no stickers, no videos, low quality images, etc.
It’s not just that. I find SMS to be slower in terms of call and response vs iMessage. It’s like my android friends take longer to reply.
Very possible this is just latency intentionally introduced by Apple to make the experience worse. They’ve been known to do things like that.
They also intentionally degrade the quality of video feeds from non-Apple users, and intentionally degrade the quality of received MMS images.
Well pre-RCS they routed android users differently because they were not compatible. Google did something similar, but in reverse, adding back things like reactions, etc. to make android users not feel like they were getting a 2nd rate experience.
These are just opinions, but here are the two I know about (I don’t use WhatsApp)
Discord: It’s not just you. You would have to get their other connections, all their servers, and all the connections from those servers to switch. Frankly speaking, Revolt isn’t ready for that to happen. You are one person. I’m sorry, but if I have 1 friend vs. all of my servers and friends, I’m not going to make a meaningful change for the one person. And tbh I’m more likely to be the one than the many. What I would suggest is to try and put yourself between the two services, help to build the communities you want to see, then invite people over.
Instagram: Same issue as Discord. The fediverse doesn’t have the variety of content, the wide range of users, or half the stuff to engage with.
It’s network effects. People have other friends on the network who have their own friends on the network, and so on. Leaving the network means convincing a critical mass of your network to leave along with you.
In other words, you say that we should just give up.
I’m simply explaining why it’s difficult for people to move from existing networks.
And it would be easier with good bridges, but of course the big platforms like Twitter, Facebook, etc., refuse to bridge in or out with anything.
You can scrape public Facebook feeds, using paid services, but AFAICT you need a friend on the inside to publish your stuff into Facebook.
I guess that’s one reason I shouldn’t complain about Bluesky - They support Bridgy.
Are there even public feeds anymore? Anytime I’ve gone to Facebook since deleting it wants me to login first, no matter what the link was to
Because their other friends are on them, and the celebrities they follow.
For the same reason it’s difficult to turn people away from communism. Phlegmatic ignorance.
Honestly, I’ve just made new friends. If I had to drop friends and family because they refused to move over, that’s fine. I can just make some new friends.
People don’t typically like change. It has to feel like it’s their decision to drive them there.
Totally get you. It’s why I roll my eyes anytime someone say “Be the change you want to see” as if I wasn’t trying to and also getting a burntout from doing so. Easier said than done.
Sadly, people are simply just so comfortable with whatever massaging & social media app they used that trying out other alternatives is immediately dismissed as a inconvenient before they even tried it. And also we are so used to corporation taking so many of our data that some are just numbed about it and see it as a losing battle or they don’t know how much valuable their information is which you often get the infamous “I got nothing to hide” BS.
I have got few my friends to use Signal when I was about to delete my Instagram. Still in contact with them which is a small victory for me.
Man, signal was easier to get people to use when it could also be their SMS app.
Hey man, you’re not alone.
I recently made a new email to get away from google and a matrix account to get away from discord. Anyone new I meet will get my matrix contact info. It will take time, but I’m in it for the long haul.
So like, this is always seemingly done from a content CONSUMER point of view.
How can we provide content creators a safety net whom we as fans enjoy their content but said artists need to have their name and face out in the open? Particularly music artists/DJs/independent artists/etc?
I swear, anyone wanting privacy, just start calling yourself an artist and boom suddenly nobody can find any information about you! You don’t even have to be serious about it, just take a crayola to a bar napkin… /s
Get their parents to sign up. Feels like grannies sharing minion memes and Bible verses was the end of facebook’s cool era.
Only Grandmas <logoOfDenturesWithACherryOnTopThatHasATiedStem>
