Yeah I had SearXNG running via a Docker container and it was pretty good. I didn’t like having to use a domain name and expose it over the internet though, because Docker is running on my NAS. I guess I could give it another try using Cloudflare tunnels so I don’t have to open anything up.

Or else go back to Startpage.

My 100-search trial expired this week and I was literally planning on subscribing later tonight. This has made me think twice.

But it takes me back to why I tried Kagi in the first place: What else can I use that respects privacy?

I don’t think any of them do completely. DuckDuckGo uses Bing, so is Microsoft; Google is… well, Google; Brave is apparently really shady; I’ve never thought much of the results from Bing directly. Startpage seemed ok but apparently uses Google.

What else?

I also like something to be integrated into the browser. As a Mac user, I can’t add new search engines to Safari (and have actually switched to Orion, but may now switch to Firefox or back to Safari).

Sorry, I wasn’t classing Chrome and Chromium as the same thing. I’m a software developer of 20 years so I understand they’re not the same thing. I guess I just took that opportunity to state that I don’t use Google services/products if I can help it.

In work we’re a Windows house, but I’ve managed to get my hands on an M2 MacBook Pro. For now I’m still using Edge but would like to get my iCloud exemption so I can use some of the apps on my personal MBP for work, and I’m wondering whether I should continue using Edge for work and A. N. Other browser for personal (and mirror this on my iPhone); or whether to use profiles, for example, on Safari and split it that way. I might be limited to what I can download on the work machine, but I’d like to synergies everything as much as I can where possible rather than having two completely different Mac experiences with my iPhone sort of thrown in the middle of both.

Which browser do you prefer? I assume a Chromium-based derivative?

I have/had a ProtonMail account, and whilst it was great, I believe it was only end-to-end encrypted when sending emails to other people using ProtonMail…? Or at least that was my understanding at the time.

The apps back then weren’t particularly polished, so I ended up migrating everything back to iCloud.

To be honest, I don’t seem to have any issues with iCloud and everything just works. But that’s the problem with Apple, and how they “get” you.

And this, my friend, is exactly what I came here for. Very insightful, informative and measured answer. Thank you for taking the time 👍🏻

Fair enough 👍🏻

Tried it, kinda liked it, but then read a lot of shady stuff about them not being as privacy-focused as they’re made out to be.

I might give Arc a go, not sure how good/popular it is though. But I think anything other than Safari will be a compromise because of the Apple Pay/Touch ID/Face ID integration.

Yeah I know they’re all based on one of three, but they are all subtly different in what they offer.

So whilst there are three main engines, there are definitely more than three choices.

Bottom of the pile for me is Chrome - I don’t use anything Google knowingly/willingly.

The Apple integration is probably the main reason I use Safari I think; the likes of Apple Pay, Touch ID/Face ID all just works. I’d love that ability in Firefox and then I’d probably use it exclusively.

That wasn’t the OP 😂

Yeah I have a self-hosted one but I’m struggling to get results. I posted under another comment on this thread, was just gonna ask for some support troubleshooting.

Completely agree though, self hosting over public instances all day long.

Do you use a self-hosted SearXNG, or one of the other hosted instances?

I see what you did there!

I replied to another comment on here saying that I’d tried this once before, via a Docker container, but just wasn’t getting any results back (kept getting timeouts from all the search engines).

I’ve just revisited it, and still get the timeouts. Reckon you’re able to help me troubleshoot it?

Below are the logs from Portainer:

 File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 165, in get
    return request('get', url, **kwargs)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 98, in request
    raise httpx.TimeoutException('Timeout', request=None) from e
httpx.TimeoutException: Timeout
2023-08-06 09:58:13,651 ERROR:searx.engines.soundcloud: Fail to initialize
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 96, in request
    return future.result(timeout)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/lib/python3.11/concurrent/futures/_base.py", line 458, in result
    raise TimeoutError()
TimeoutError
The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/search/processors/abstract.py", line 75, in initialize
    self.engine.init(get_engine_from_settings(self.engine_name))
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/engines/soundcloud.py", line 69, in init
    guest_client_id = get_client_id()
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/engines/soundcloud.py", line 45, in get_client_id
    response = http_get("https://soundcloud.com")
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 165, in get
    return request('get', url, **kwargs)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 98, in request
    raise httpx.TimeoutException('Timeout', request=None) from e
httpx.TimeoutException: Timeout
2023-08-06 09:58:13,654 ERROR:searx.engines.soundcloud: Fail to initialize
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 96, in request
    return future.result(timeout)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/lib/python3.11/concurrent/futures/_base.py", line 458, in result
    raise TimeoutError()
TimeoutError
The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/search/processors/abstract.py", line 75, in initialize
    self.engine.init(get_engine_from_settings(self.engine_name))
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/engines/soundcloud.py", line 69, in init
    guest_client_id = get_client_id()
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/engines/soundcloud.py", line 45, in get_client_id
    response = http_get("https://soundcloud.com")
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 165, in get
    return request('get', url, **kwargs)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/local/searxng/searx/network/__init__.py", line 98, in request
    raise httpx.TimeoutException('Timeout', request=None) from e
httpx.TimeoutException: Timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.wikidata: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.duckduckgo: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.google: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.qwant: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.startpage: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.wikibooks: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.wikiquote: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,024 ERROR:searx.engines.wikisource: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,025 ERROR:searx.engines.wikipecies: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,025 ERROR:searx.engines.wikiversity: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,025 ERROR:searx.engines.wikivoyage: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,025 ERROR:searx.engines.brave: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:02:05,481 WARNING:searx.engines.wikidata: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,481 ERROR:searx.engines.wikidata: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.457878380082548 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,482 WARNING:searx.engines.wikisource: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,484 ERROR:searx.engines.wikisource: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.460748491808772 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,485 WARNING:searx.engines.brave: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,485 ERROR:searx.engines.brave: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.461546086706221 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,487 WARNING:searx.engines.google: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,487 ERROR:searx.engines.google: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.463769535068423 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,489 WARNING:searx.engines.wikiversity: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,489 ERROR:searx.engines.wikiversity: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.466003180015832 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,490 WARNING:searx.engines.wikivoyage: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,490 ERROR:searx.engines.wikivoyage: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.466597221791744 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,490 WARNING:searx.engines.qwant: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,490 ERROR:searx.engines.qwant: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.4669976509176195 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,491 WARNING:searx.engines.wikibooks: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,491 ERROR:searx.engines.wikibooks: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.4674198678694665 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,491 WARNING:searx.engines.wikiquote: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,492 WARNING:searx.engines.wikipecies: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,492 ERROR:searx.engines.wikiquote: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.468321242835373 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,492 ERROR:searx.engines.wikipecies: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.468797960784286 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,496 WARNING:searx.engines.duckduckgo: ErrorContext('searx/engines/duckduckgo.py', 98, 'res = get(query_url, headers=headers)', 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,497 ERROR:searx.engines.duckduckgo: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.47349306801334 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:02:05,511 WARNING:searx.engines.startpage: ErrorContext('searx/engines/startpage.py', 214, 'resp = get(get_sc_url, headers=headers)', 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:02:05,511 ERROR:searx.engines.startpage: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 6.487425099126995 s, timeout: 6.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:04:27,475 ERROR:searx.engines.duckduckgo: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:04:27,770 WARNING:searx.engines.duckduckgo: ErrorContext('searx/search/processors/online.py', 118, "response = req(params['url'], **request_args)", 'httpx.TimeoutException', None, (None, None, None)) False
2023-08-06 10:04:27,771 ERROR:searx.engines.duckduckgo: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 3.2968566291965544 s, timeout: 3.0 s) : TimeoutException
2023-08-06 10:04:50,094 ERROR:searx.engines.duckduckgo: engine timeout
2023-08-06 10:04:50,187 WARNING:searx.engines.duckduckgo: ErrorContext('searx/engines/duckduckgo.py', 98, 'res = get(query_url, headers=headers)', 'httpx.ConnectTimeout', None, (None, None, 'duckduckgo.com')) False
2023-08-06 10:04:50,187 ERROR:searx.engines.duckduckgo: HTTP requests timeout (search duration : 3.0933595369569957 s, timeout: 3.0 s) : ConnectTimeout

The above is a simple search for “best privacy focused search engines 2023”, followed by the same search again but using the ddg! bang in front of it.

I can post my docker-compose if it helps?

Would love to know this, and this did form part of my OP in terms of which search engines could be “hacked” into Safari.

No, I’m using local DNS in Pi-hole with a domain I own but nothing is externally accessible. And even if it were, I’ve got Authelia on all my containers (except, Vaultwarden because I can’t get it to work).

Yeah I’ve got Docker up and running with lots of containers, but wasn’t getting any results back from SearXNG for some reason, kept getting timeouts. I’ve got everything running behind Traefik so might just be a bit of a config issue.

I’m seeing a lot of love for Kagi as well. Not sure I’m quite ready to have to pay for search results, but I fully appreciate people that do. I have lots of subscriptions already and am trying to reduce them (i.e. self-hosting Vaultwarden as a replacement for 1Password).

What are your thoughts on Arc? I tried it a couple of months ago but couldn’t really get used to the layout, etc.

Sure it’s as good a browser as any, I just wasn’t feeling it.

Perhaps I need to go back to figuring out SearXNG. Although I did read that there’s a slight privacy compromise to use SearXNG over SearX.

Perhaps that doesn’t apply if it’s self-hosted, though.