There is currently a very funny, kind of sad dust-up over Helldivers 2, in which self-proclaimed “anti-woke” gamers have previously heralded it as a rare game where they believe “politics” does not play a factor. Their faith was been shaken by an Arrowhead community manager they believed they found to be (gasp) progressive who was then subsequently harassed, but their head-scratching reading of Helldivers 2 as a “non-political” game is worth examining.
The only thing that makes sense is that these players have the shallowest of surface-level readings of the game. You are a patriotic soldier serving Super Earth. You must kill bugs and evil robots trying to hurt your brothers-in-arms and innocent citizens. There are no storylines to insert progressive causes into, everyone wears helmets so no “forced diversity.” Therefore, no politics.
Of course, this is…wildly off the mark, as Helldivers 2 is about the most blatantly obvious satire of militaristic fascism since the film that inspired it, Starship Troopers.
If conservatives had any media literacy, they wouldn’t be conservatives anymore.
This is why the humanities are important
Really? I’m fed up with one humanity. Can’t think I can handle any more. 🫠
"I want to make a movie so painfully obvious in its satire that everyone who understands it lives in perpetual psychological torment inflicted on them by all the people who don’t.”
Wellcome to the post-internet era, where u can no longer tell if that obviously idiotic argument was written by a bot, a troll, your average right-winger or a twitter justice warrior.
Idiocracy was satire, but it turned into a documentary. Sadly they were too optimistic and their leaders listened to smart people unlike ours.
It was also kind of like,really pro-eugenics.
These are the same people that thought the machine RATM was raging against was a refrigerator or something.
There are still people who think that Starship Troopers should be taken seriously. This despite the fact that it has Neil Patrick Harris in it, a man who sings and dances in every possible opportunity.
Just the other say I saw a facebook comment saying Starship Troopers is not a satire of fascism but its about patriotism and serving your country
I first saw it as a kid and didn’t like it too much because I took it too seriously. Rewatched it years later and I didn’t like it because the satire was just so way too obvious and forced to be enjoyable.
So I can kinda understand how it could over someone’s head since it did over mine (when I was like 10).
I don’t like it because I think it was both bad at being a Starship Troopers movie and bad at satirizing Starship Troopers.
At least read the whole book, Paul. Maybe then you’d have known Johnny Rico was Filipino and that particular reveal was actually a rather important detail when it was written. You did a white washing by accident, you crazy Dutch bastard.
So, I think there’s something weird about the nature of the satire in Helldivers 2 that might lead to some problems.
I don’t feel like it’s that controversial to say that the game is pretty obviously ripping off Starship Troopers. Like to a point that goes way beyond mere homage. Now I don’t view this as an inherent problem, because I don’t believe IP should be a thing, but this fact, combined with the way they’ve adapted it into a game leads to some issues.
The game basically has all the aesthetic elements of the satire of Starship Troopers: The over the top patriotism, nationalism, militarism, the devaluing of the individual and life, etc. On it’s own, this is enough for people who have already become disillusioned with the US war machine to get what it’s saying. However, to someone who’s deep in the propaganda that America is a force for good in the world that is simply fighting evil enemies who hate freedom and democracy, there is no cognitive dissonance there. Of course we’re gonna be all patriotic about fighting against some big bad enemy that’s threatening us.
Not that people didn’t also misunderstand Starship Troopers, but a key difference it has in driving it’s point home is that moment at the end of the movie when they capture one of the bugs and learn it feels fear and then they all cheer. We see that no, the bugs aren’t some unthinking monsters bent on destroying us, they’re intelligent creatures and we’re the invaders, but the people are so indoctrinated at this point that this fact doesn’t even phase them.
Helldivers 2 doesn’t really have that anywhere within the main “text” of the game. Sure, you can read some lore and get a bit of that from some conversations with NPCs on the ship, but that’s not really how people interact with games, or at least a game like this. Most people are going to load into a lobby, pick a mission, maybe mess around with their loadout, then go jump into a game where the bugs ARE horrible unthinking monsters who represent an existential threat to humanity. In the ways the game lets you interact with it, there’s no option where you make peace with the bugs or come to understand the horror of what you’re doing. The bugs are just enemies and you have an assortment of guns and bombs to interact with them.
So since the mechanics of the game itself don’t really mesh well with the message of the satire, what it relies on is either a) You already having seen Starship Troopers or b) You already understanding imperialism, fascism, and recognizing those traits in America’s military culture.
It’s kind of a weird place for a piece of media to be when it’s message only makes sense in the context of another similar piece of media or when the player/reader/viewer already agrees with it’s message.
It’s not terribly surprising that it hasn’t had any success breaking through to the people who need their minds changed.
They kinda threaten to send you off to freedom camp if you disagree with them. The fascisim ain’t subtle.
Maybe I missed it, but do they say that anywhere in the course of the gameplay or required interactions for getting into the gameplay? If it’s missable, it’s going to be missed. That’s fine for some stuff, but if your messaging relies on people with the most incurious ideology actively seeking it, you’re going to be disappointed.
play the tutorial again
I understand where you’re coming from, but you’d have to really go out of your way to ignore a lot of stuff in the game to just get the gameplay without any of the dialogue or text that is absolutely dripping with satire.
Blaming the game devs for making it not obvious enough is really highlighting the lack of media literacy. The game is not subtle at all, man.
We’re talking about it because it is something people misunderstood. You can’t wholly blame the audience without acknowledging the flaws of the media. Not that they bear no responsibility for their reading of it, but it’s not without value to critique the way the message was delivered.
Well said!
There are other games, where you play the bad guys, like Payday. Now I am not knowledgeable enough about the Helldivers or Payday lore, so I cannot compare if similar points can be made there. For all I know Payday could be a group of freedom fighters against a militaristic fascist police state.
Or are there any other games of that genre, where you play the bad guys, and it is made more clear on which side you are on?
There are some others, although I don’t know that they always need to do a “this is bad btw” message. Like Paday or GTA are crime fantasies. The player gets to have fun pretending to act outside the bounds of law and/or morality and get away with it in a safe environment. In the same way you root for the thieves in a heist movie. Although in a movies usually they do more to give you reasons to like the heroes like giving them some sad backstory.
These aren’t really trying to be a political commentary on crime. They might have a component of criticizing the society that forces people into crime, but I don’t know they have anything to say about the act or the people who do it in specific. And they don’t really need to. Not just because they don’t need to send a political message, but also because the game depends on the general understanding that crime is bad and. If it didn’t have that cultural context as a backdrop, the element of the game that makes the player feel like they’re getting away with something they shouldn’t be wouldn’t be effective.
Or to make a more direct thematic comparison: Call of Duty. They’re military fantasy games. The games are pretty much unironic imperialist propaganda. They, like a lot of big budget action movies that include military hardware, get direct support from, and in exchange cede editorial control to, the US military. In these games you are cast as a heroic soldier for either the US or an ally fighting against a bunch of evil, scary foreigners who want to destroy our way of life. When the bad guy turns out to be part of the military, it’s one rogue guy/faction. The one setting that doesn’t twist real life imperialist invasions as being good is WWII. But in the broader context, by placing the fight against the Nazis next to conflicts which have largely been about resource extraction and access to markets, they project the roles of WWII, where America is the good guy and the ones they’re fighting are evil, onto those invasions.
While CoD has to do some work to characterize the enemies to avoid humanizing them, they are heavily leaning on the pre-existing cultural assumption that America is good and brings freedom and democracy to the world. So while I’d criticize CoD for being what it is, I can’t really critique its effectiveness in conveying its message. It might not win over someone who already knows what’s up, and it probably doesn’t make any difference to the complete fascist nutjobs, for most people who don’t like violence and war, but might be convinced it’s necessary for some greater good, it helps reinforce the message that the wars we’re fighting are necessary and are for the greater good.
So yeah. My criticism of Helldivers 2 isn’t just that it doesn’t say it to your face that the things it depicts and represents are bad. It’s just that if it is a satire (and I don’t really have any reason to doubt that given a lot of context), I don’t know that it’s that effective at conveying its message. Sort of responding to some of the other comments: I don’t think you can reasonably expect that the majority of players playing a mission based co-op live service action game are going to stop to read lore or chat with NPCs that aren’t mechanically relevant. So if you want anything to get across, it has to happen in the course of gameplay, maybe even integrated into the mechanics. Granted, that game might not turn out to be fun to play, but that might just be a case for video games in general not being a very effective vehicle for anti-violence messaging.
Going back to those 3 groups:
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For anti-imperialists, it doesn’t matter. We know already.
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For straight up fascists, it doesn’t really do anything to make them re-evaluate their worldview. Maybe they might get something out of the way the lives of the soldiers is so valueless, but I kind of doubt it. But it certainly wouldn’t change their minds about their enemies being non-human and dangerous/worthy of being killed.
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For the average person… they might get the overly patriotic propaganda part of it, but there are so many times when these kinds of people recognize that, but then are like “it’s just like some communist dictatorship! Good thing we’re not like that.” There’s zero self awareness. For the part of it about the nature of the enemy and the necessity of military conflict, the killer bugs and bots that we see in game really only reinforce the idea that this is a necessary conflict.
Idk. It’s fine if the game wants to just be a fun goofy shooting game, and I don’t begrudge it for trying to be something more than that even if it fails, but it’s kind of hard to give it much credit either when it basically just copied someone else’s homework poorly.
My criticism of Helldivers 2 isn’t just that it doesn’t say it to your face that the things it depicts and represents are bad. It’s just that if it is a satire (and I don’t really have any reason to doubt that given a lot of context), I don’t know that it’s that effective at conveying its message.
I think one of the biggest problems with Helldivers 2 is actually the same one with Star Wars. For a fan that doesn’t really care about thinking through the implications of the lore of a game/movie, and wants to identify themselves with the game/movie franchise what is the coolest looking imagery from that game/movie that they can slap on their car as a bumper sticker and associate themselves with? The fascists.
That is actually a pretty serious problem, and saying “but the text of the art clearly points out the fascists are the baddies” doesn’t matter because fascism is a content devoid political ideology that is obsessed with the superficial aesthetics of power without any desire to examine anything past a surface level.
Great point about the bugs, though I think gamers are really dumb as fuck, and tend to have a hard time examining the political implications of games. Most really can’t understand how saying orcs or bugs are inherently Evil and deserve to die is clearly problematic, even if it is done in a lighthearted way.
The whole concept of space bugs itself is interesting in that they are a creature designed to be so aesthetically repulsive and threatening that we don’t extend empathy to it. Take for example my pet peeve with factorio, the game never examines for even one tiny nano second how fucked up it is to trash an entire planet and slaughter countless wildlife trying to stop you, just so you a single individual can go home. The wildlife are creepy space bugs, ewwww, kill them!!
None of the factory survival genre of games do and it is honestly pretty disturbing in the context of the insane amounts of damage being done in real life to our planet in the name of more and more resource extraction. It is like Helldivers without the layer of self awareness.
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I never played the game but watched some trailers and gameplay videos. I’m 99% certain that Helldivers 2 is following the Starship Troopers formula and purely making fun of patrionism, propaganda, war, the military, military personnel, “freedom”, heroism, politics and military advertisements and turning that into a game. There’s just so many obvious signs, it seems impossible to miss. In other words, it is a political game. Or maybe I just really don’t get either of the two.
You nailed it. It’s 100% inspired by Starship Troopers and is a criticism of US propaganda in the same vein while also being an incredibly fun co-op game.
The only thing you’re missing is just how obtuse some people are. It runs into the same thing as the Warhammer 40k universe, where the humans are obviously just as bad as everybody else, but people praise their fascist military industrial complex society. Either people are so incredibly media illiterate that it makes your head spin, or they’re wilfully ignorant because it supports their worldview. Take your pick, but I go for a little of both.
It’s an easy worldview. Those people need the world to make sense, and fascism and authoritarianism give easy answers.
See: Does Call Of Duty Believe In Anything?, by Jacob Geller.
Conservatives think they’re the default. They don’t have an ideology, a religion, a sexuality, or an ethnicity. They’re normal. It’s everyone else who’s different.
I think what a lot of people miss here is that when people say “keep politics out of x” what they mean is “keep blatant cringeworthy soapboxing out of x.”
Helldivers is tongue in cheek and doesn’t feel the need to bash you over the head with “But actually fascism bad” every five seconds, instead it has gag recruitment ads and an overall really funny presentation that works whether you get it or you don’t.
I guarantee you that no rightoid looks at a one world government “super earth” with fond eyes.
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If you’re an identitarian the fact that the Helldivers can be men or women is unacceptable, not to mention it’s not clear if they’re ethnically homogeneous
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If you’re a libertarian the de-individualization and constant surveillance/propaganda from a totalitarian state is unacceptable, double that if you’re an ancap
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Monarchists would probably like this if it were an explicit monarchy, but it’s not, so they would probably also not like it
The only faction who would like this game’s world is classical fascists, the kind Mussolini was, which ironically a lot of people seem to really really like on any side of the political spectrum, cause it’s literally just totalitarian ideological illiberal authority.
I think you are expecting a lot more subtlety in people’s interpretation than the people doing the interpretation deserve. Yes, super earth is clearly a military dictatorship to anyone who recognises that it is a political satire. But for those who don’t, and who don’t see beyond the surface veneer of “we’re defending Earth from invaders”… It looks a lot like AmericaWorld, where everyone is happy and free and kept safe from the nasty aliens.
We are talking about the same people who think Fallout isn’t political and the Brotherhood of Steel is a cool good guy army.
Eh, in Fallout 3 and 4 Bethesda diverted the canon a bit too much for me. It never seemed like they understood the universe. In 1 and 2, the BoS was, if not good, at least lawful neutral, and quite helpful, despite isolationist. I haven’t played New Vegas yet.
I mean, they send a random stranger who wants to join them to die in a radioactive hole for fun. They are just kinda there in the originals until something bigger shows up.
Yep, that’s lawful neutral for you. They safeguard and preserve technology while biding their time, but they don’t share it with those in need. I’m sure lots of people bother them, and they send them all over to get rid of them. They’re not really good guys, but they’re also not bad guys. I like them well enough.
Yeah, I can see that.
I think Bethesda made them too much of the good guys in Fallout 3 and overcorrected in Fallout 4.
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I want to make a movie so painfully obvious in its satire that everyone who understands it lives in perpetual psychological torment inflicted on them by all the people who don’t.
Brutal. He did it too, he did it.
But he still toned it down from the book…
The first chapter is them taking a village of anthropomorphic insects over. They didn’t have any soldiers, it was just a random village and there’s a part where a mother and infant are hiding in a closest, get blasted by a flamethrower, and as the soldier jetbacks away he just shoots rockets everywhere because they get in trouble if they return with any unused ammo.
Just completely blasie about genocide.
Trimming it down to just the one 100% bug race really made it easier to write them off as monsters. But makes sense for a movie.
Yeah, if I saw that movie I definitely wouldn’t have wanted to sign up to go kill bugs after I saw it.
Maybe it should be rebooted as a gritty, Vietnam-esque series.
I mean wasn’t the author of the book saying that’s how things should be run? I had always heard the movie was basically mocking the premise of the book.
Nah, dude was a Naval officer that became disillusioned and wrote Stranger in a Strange Land. Hippies called that one “The Hippy Bible” because, well it basically was.
Then there’s his modern retelling if Job.
Like, if you read the Lazarus Long novels, there’s gonna be some sexism and toxic masculinity, along with some libertarianism shit. But we’re talking late 60s/early 70s pulp SciFi. It would be like judging current media because there’s always sex scenes and huge explosions.
Its rarely there because the creators want it there, it’s there to sell the media.
Starship Troopers is basically about what he feared the military could easily become if it took over the government.
That was kind of Heinleins whole style, you enjoy a book all the the way thru, but by the end everything is completely different and almost unrecognizable from chapter 1.
Those weren’t bugs, those were “Skinnies”, humanoid aliens.
They showed up in the animated series, but not the movie.
humanoid aliens.
I never watched the cartoon, and it’s been a while since I read the book, but for some reason I always pictured them like the aliens in Invincible where they’re humanoid aliens, but bug like.
I dunno. That’s the thing about books, our brains just fill in the gaps.
Paul Verhoeven is about as subtle as a brick to the skull with his messaging, and people still think movies like RoboCop are pro-police
Speaking of which, they made a Robocop videogame recently, too. I haven’t played it but I can’t imagine it goes any better than this game does, as far as authentically delivering the message of the movie. If you’re the cop holding the gun, how does the story deliver the message that police authority is just gang violence done for the rich and powerful?
It’s always going to fly over the heads of conservative chuds no matter how obvious you make it. Helldivers 2 is absolutely blatant with its satire, and people still miss the point. I’ve never played Spec Ops: The Line, but I’ve heard it praised for its brutal depiction of the horrors of war, and people completely missed the point with that one, too.
Some people are so media illiterate that a dictionary to the face would miss them, and conservatives are wilfully ignorant to these messages because it supports their worldview to take things at face value and never dig any deeper. If they thought about things, they wouldn’t be able to stay assured in the righteousness of their hatred or the belief that they’re the real victims of any situation.
Same thing happens with WH40k and GW has to put out memos telling Nazis to fuck off every few years.
Media literacy is apparently difficult
They put out a notice on the topic more than once?
If they want Nazis to stop liking Warhammer, they should try putting the satire back in it. It’s been fascist sympathy for decades at this point.
Short of the Emperor coming back and correcting his title to “Dictator of the Proletariat” I don’t even know how’d they’d fix it now.
Canonize Chaos just being rebels with no demons? Horus Heresy already canonized them as being even more fashy than the Imperium. Tyranids or Necrons or whoever winning wouldn’t do shit either. The chuds would just whine about people diverting resources from the war by fighting for “rights” and “food”
The satirical nature of Helldivers 2 is obvious, but in Starship Troopers the bugs flung a meteor at Earth which destroyed a major city and killed millions. I would argue that Starship Troopers has a bit more of a serious vibe with subtle satire, aside from some of the commercials like the one of soldiers giving kids guns. In Helldivers 2 the intro video shows that bugs are killing civilians, which could be true or could be purely propaganda. But yea, anyone who doesn’t understand that Helldivers 2 is satirical is a fucking idiot. It all makes fun of militaristic imperialism, you can literally name your ship “King of Democracy”.
Are you sure it was the bugs that launched the meteor
As per the lore of Starship Troopers, yes I’m sure. There is no evidence even slightly that it was done by humans in that universe. On the other hand, in Helldivers 2 the intro video is clearly staged and prerecorded produced by the “Ministry of Truth” with the statement “scenes like these are happening all over the galaxy” making it clear that it was a staged video.
https://starshiptroopers.fandom.com/wiki/Bug_Meteor
The bugs in Starship Troopers even tried to send another one which was stopped:
"Later, at a certain point, the Arachnids launched a second meteor towards Earth. Fortunately for the Federation, it was destroyed by a Missile defence turret on Luna Base. The meteor would have slammed into southern Africa, possibly at Cape Town. "
So the thing is that it’s not just the movie and novels that should be taken as separate canons, it’s the first movie and everything else built off the movie that should be taken as separate, including the pre release materials.
The novel wasn’t a satire of fascism (and wasn’t fascist either, but that’s a whole other thing).
The movie was, but Verhoeven fairly famously didn’t read the book, and everyone around him knew what “due diligence” means so they did the bare minimum, so all the other material built off it has a different direction.
That said, Buenos Aires was definitely a false flag/accident in the movie.
I don’t know if you know much about space, but a small amount of energy applied to an object at a distant point can have significant implications for the trajectory of, say, an asteroid traveling through space.
We see the asteroid that hits Buenos Aires, and a Federation ship bumps into it in space.
It couldn’t possibly have been on a ballistic path to take out Buenos Aires, that bump would have made it miss.
But, okay, maybe it was just lobbed in Earth’s general direction, and that was just a tragic accident? (This is what the supplementary material goes with btw)
With what technology?
The bugs in the movie show absolutely zero technological use. Not one bit.
These are the questions Verhoeven wanted you asking. They’re also the ones every other bit of material ignores, despite the clear criticism (if not actually fair to source) laid out by the movie.
That said, Buenos Aires was definitely a false flag/accident in the movie.
Not true.
With what technology?
https://starshiptroopers.fandom.com/wiki/Plasma#Arachnids
Not replying after this as to not waste my time.
Well, I can’t say I’m surprised to find someone going to bat for the movie Federation despite everything in the gaming sub.
Got any opinions on how Caesar’s Legion is the only hope for New Vegas?
Got any opinions on how Caesar’s Legion is the only hope for New Vegas?
There was actually supposed to be lore backing that up, and making the decision more complicated that “NCR good, legion bad” but they ran out of development time
🤢
Also, btw, the game wasn’t “NCR good.”
They’re an openly genocidal republic beset with corruption and slavery with extra steps.
It’s almost like they were a deliberate mirror of America in the Westward Expansion/Pre Civil War era…
But they had the coolest uniform, and that’s ultimately what people care about.
This seems like some made up shit. For all 5 people who don’t seem to get the stinging nature of this game’s satire, I just can’t bring myself to care.
Just have a look at the steam discussions for the game. It’s a cesspool of edgy 14 years olds yelling about politics in their video games.
Yes, I am aware that this describes the steam discussions for most games.
Lemmy is literally the other side of that coin though. A bunch of 14 year olds yelling “fuck capitalism/America” in every thread.
I mean, the game is really on the nose with its parodic elements, how could they possibly not see that? Just talk to the supply officer ladies in the back part of the ship.
They are full of gems like “the bot society is wholly built on war. If they ever won they wouldnt know what to do“ (paraphrased), or the ministry of truth which ensures all citizens are properly
indoctrinatedinformed, or the ministry of economy which makes sure resources flow to the “most deserving”.Poe’s law
Doesn’t really apply outside of text. It’s entire tone of the cutscenes is very blatantly satirical
Political = this game contains things I disagree with.
The usual things. Black people. Trans people. Women who aren’t just a set of tits with a gun.
I remember when some of them kicked up about Far Cry 5 because the villains were all white (which was relevant to the games setting) and they accused the devs of demonising white people LMAO
The complaints about Wolfenstein becoming political really took the cake for me.
What? Wolfenstein the Nazi killin game is political? /s
Next thing you’ll say BJ wasn’t killing Nazis for Jesus
More because they were a white Christian doomsday cult.
Clearly a little close to home for some people out there.
Most of the bad guys in Resident Evil 5 were black because of the relevancy to the setting, and people were similarly kicking up.
Is getting up in arms about one of those any different to the other?
(And just to be clear, I’m not taking about the tribal depictions, I’m referring to the reaction to the early trailers)
I mean, a white guy going into a village of black people and shooting up the place is just colonialist history. There’s some potential racism to unpack there, so it’s not surprising that people’s first reaction was “what the fuck.”
This was people freaking out about a white guy shooting up a bunch of other white guys who were part of a Christian extremist militia in South Dakota or something. This was people being angry that the bad guys were white Christians, a group that could never be in the wrong.
I don’t disagree with this synopsis, but I’m sadly unsurprised that your familiarity with the source material stops at the movie — which, in fact, was preceded (nearly 40 years) & inspired by a (far better) book of the same name from Heinlein. 😅😶 What’s more, Helldivers 2 seems to take more cues from the book than the movie, and it does the original more honor than the cult classic did in '97, too.
Lastly, who in their right mind ever expects alt-right fucknuts to parse irony? Isn’t that integral to their M.O., the consistent whoosh so frequent that it must be like white noise in their skulls 24/7? (Yes, there’s a supremacy joke in there, but I’m too tired to dig it up)
We’re dealing with people who read at a fifth grade level at best. They barely understand the text, let a lone the subtext.
The main difference from the film being that the novel isn’t a satire–Heinlein was being sincere.
You’re not wrong. I have no idea why people are downvoting you
