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- cross-posted to:
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Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France’s state-run schools, the education minister has said.
The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.
France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.
Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.
oh no it’s the assimilation police, dictating how and when people give up their culture!
Yeah, no.
If someone comes to my country I’d expect them to adapt.
No homophobic abuse, no sexist abuse, no telling women what they can and can’t do.
Cultures aren’t all equal. If your culture is built on bigotry, I have zero respect for it. According to some cultures, I should be stoned to death for being a bisexual man. Fuck those cultures.
What the heck country are you living in where those aren’t already part of the culture?
What makes you think that because it goes on in some parts of a country that it defines all people in that land and from that land?
Check your own fucking privilege, or better yet, your bias. You make broad generalizations about people that you literally haven’t ever spoken to.
Obviously bigots exist everywhere, but you have your head in the sand if you don’t think some cultures are far worse than others.
If you go to a country in the middle east, and are openly gay, there’s a good chance the state will murder you. That’s not hyperbole. That’s a statement of fact.
Personally, I don’t find that tolerable.
When did I ever generalise a whole group of people? I’m not in the slightest. I recently helped organise the wedding of my friend with the wife’s father - he (and his daughter) are Muslim and he’s one of the most wonderful, warm-hearted, welcoming, generous people I’ve ever met.
Guess what? He fucking hates a lot of islamic culture and was happier about his daughter marrying a non-muslim. Because he knows that most Muslims unfortunately aren’t as progressive as he is.
Over 50% of Muslims in the UK think being gay should be illegal. If you genuinely don’t think that’s a cultural issue at play then you’re crazy, and you’re just letting people off with homophobia.
Again. You are not the one who risks death by being yourself. Check your fucking privilege.
While you’re debating the finer points of whether it’s moral to call out homophobia if the perpetrator of it is Muslim (spoiler - it is, and nobody gets in a huff about saying Catholics or Russian orthodox often hold homophobic views, leading me to believe that you’re actually being racist), I’m here in the real world, where I know that some cultures unfortunately have a huge amount of people that want to see me harmed.
Those cultures are not compatible with a free and progressive society.
If they want to be accepted they need to change. And I have zero obligation to be welcoming of them until they do. They want me dead. Get to fuck with that “turn the other cheek” crap. If a culture calls for my destruction, that’s not a culture that I’m going to like.
If you go to someone’s country which does have anti LGBT laws, are you going to “adapt”?
We can stand against bigotry in other could cultures without creating a blanket ban against those cultures.
I’d have to, otherwise I’d be killed. Stop for a second and think about that. I’d be murdered by the state.
Obviously I wouldn’t set foot in any of those shitholes though.
Letting those hateful cultures and attitudes be accepted isn’t standing against bigotry.
Tolerating intolerance will just lead to intolerance gaining foothold and then your society won’t be a tolerant one at all.
There are cities and towns I can’t be myself in now because I fear for my safety, and I’m in a first world, progressive country.
It’s all well and good just telling me to be warm and accepting to people with homophobic, misogynistic, backwards beliefs, but they want me dead.
Check your damn privilege, you’re not the one who risks their safety when being around these people.
I’m in a similar boat in a lot of these countries. I have Indian heritage, and at least in Pakistan that could go very, very poorly for me. But I don’t think we should ban any traditionally Pakistani clothing. I don’t shun all Pakistani people because I would be unsafe in their country. And because of that, I’ve made friends who are Pakistani who also find that hatred ridiculous.
Now, I’m not telling you to go into a mosque and try to make friends with people after announcing you’re bi, just like I wouldn’t tell you to do that in a church or cathedral or any gathering of Republicans. That’s the thing – this isn’t exclusive to Islamic extremism. I see no reason then to judge them more harshly than I would any other homophobes, and I have no reason to assume they’re all bigots, just like I don’t assume all Christians or white people are. And it is very notable that the French law has an exception that lets small crosses still be worn, which is the majority of Christian expression, but no such exception exists for the majority of Islamic expression.
I made my initial point poorly, which is that it’s wrong to force people to adapt to your culture, no matter where in the world you are. You can still be completely intolerant of their bigoted beliefs and make it clear those are unacceptable and cross the line, but not restrict someone’s self expression because they share a religion with bigoted idiots. France should be outright outlawing churches if we’re going to target association by religion/culture, not granting exceptions that disproportionately benefit them.
I’m sincerely sorry if my comment came across as “respect the people who want to kill you”, that’s completely my fault and I made my point very poorly. I hold no respect for racists, and I don’t expect anybody to respect their bigots. All bigotry needs to be chased out and ostracized from society.
Change isn’t going to come from treating everyone of a religion or culture as bigots, and killing every bigot isn’t a solution either. If we want to eliminate bigotry, it’s going to come from people rejecting the bigotry of others in their religion/culture and making friends with them. And that’s only possible if we take a harsh stance against bigotry, and only bigotry. Nothing by association.
Again, sorry about my very poor wording.
I didn’t say I’m accepting of other bigots. I’m not. At all.
I’m intolerant of intolerance and cultures built on intolerance.
Yeah. When you decide to join another culture, you don’t force yours on them. If your culture was so shitty that you had to flee to a different country, then maybe it was a shitty culture that shouldn’t be preserved
How does the style of clothes you’re wearing force anything on anyone? It’s cool if you want to embrace the new culture, but you wouldn’t be hurting anyone if you didn’t. Besides, it’s not like you have to choose one or the other; assimilating doesn’t have to mean you give up everything pertaining to the culture you lived in before.
Side note – shitty culture is far from the only reason for people to move. I’m no expert, but I’m guessing it’s not at the top of the list either, lol.
Kids are bullies. That’s one point of school uniforms. It takes away a potential bullying target
The majority of these people aren’t fleeing the culture, they’re fleeing the regimes. Wearing clothing that you wore your whole life isn’t “forcing” it on anyone, you are just being yourself. Would you tolerate a mostly-white school banning dashikis? What if the white principal said “Well the kid wearing it is getting bullied we’re trying to protect him!” Do you see how fucking backwards that is?
It’s pretty simple. Give up your culture for another if the other is superior. If your culture is bigoted, for whatever reason, religious or not, give it up.
self-report
I know what you assume, but lets ignore that, it’s nonsense anyways, stay with the point. You don’t think a progressive culture is to be prefered over one that is bigoted?