I mean, the reality is that manual/standard transmissions are just fuel and effort inefficient at this point. There was a window where automatics were inefficient enough to make learning stick worth it but that is LONG gone. And CVTs, in apples for apples comparisons, kind of are the best of both worlds.
Still pretty shocked since I don’t think anyone buys a ferrari or a lambo because they want a reasonable high quality car and nothing screams “I am compensating” like wrapping your hands around that shaft while you drive but… if the goal is performance?
The main reasons you wanted a manual back in the day was price - because automatic transmissions were expensive - and fuel economy - because they were less efficient. (To a lesser extent reliability, because automatics were newer and they hadn’t worked out the kinks yet.)
However, the price of automatics fell, and the dual-clutch gearboxes with 7-10 gears are even more efficient because they keep the car in the most efficient rev range. Same goes for CVTs. And the dual-clutches shift faster than you ever could, so they’re better for sports cars, which is why F1 switched to them a long time ago.
So it makes sense that manuals are falling out of favor because they’re objectively worse in all respects compared to the transmissions available today. However, subjectively they’re a lot more fun which is why I have a manual transmission car I plan on keeping on the road well into the 2050s.
Fun and more control. I too am in the I bought a manual club. Twice my truck and my wife’s car are both manual transmissions with a clutch (third pedal).
I guess some of the new dual clutch transmissions are considered manual 🤔
I love manuals but while they do give more control than a basic automatic transmission, I don’t think I could argue that they give more control than an automatic with paddle shifters.
A manually-shiftable automatic obeys your suggestion to shift if and when it feels like it. A manual transmission shifts RIGHT THE FUCK NOW as you move the lever.
I have only tried paddle shifters on other people’s cars so I couldn’t do anything too exciting. They will really refuse to shift sometimes even if the result would be within the operating parameters of the engine/transmission? Is that just a problem with some models or is it universal?
I do admit that I enjoy the feeling of being able to blow up my engine if I feel like it… (Actually I’m not sure the synchros would let me do that.)
To be clear, “an automatic with paddle shifters” (or in general, a manually-shiftable automatic) does not necessarily imply a fancy dual-clutch transmission derived from F1 cars or whatever. Sometimes, like in my automatic-transmission car, it just means you get a + and - on the gear lever and still have a torque converter instead of one clutch (let alone two).
But yes, the one thing that is true in any modern car without a third pedal is that when you push the stick to + or - or pull on the paddle shifters, all it’s doing is sending an electrical signal to a computer that mediates between you and the car and decides whether your input will be followed or not. It won’t allow a downshift that would cause an overrev (probably in any car, even the most track-oriented ones), in many cases (especially in less-sporty cars) it won’t hold a low gear and let you keep the engine at redline but will instead upshift even if you do nothing, and in many cases it won’t hold a high gear as you come to a stop and will instead start you off in first again instead of fifth like a real manual would do. And last, but not least, those computer decisions and solenoid activations and whatnot take at least some non-zero amount of time, which – even if it’s a fancy dual-clutch and the total time interval between gear N being engaged and gear N+1 being engaged is way shorter than any human could manage – it can feel laggy because you give the input and then it acts, as opposed to a real manual where your hand on the gear stick and your foot on the clutch pedal are doing the action to the car directly.
Which is why you call the gear change ahead of when you intend to. When you do it right and get familiar with how long the delay is on that car, you will nail it every time.
But if I’m trying to to break the back end out, engine brake downhill, or have a dead battery and want to pop the clutch to start it I really want a manual transmission or a sequential gearbox.
I also can rebuild a manual in my garage (and have) so I’m more comfortable with something I can easily service if I need to. I drive 20 year old cars and intend to keep them, and any other car we buy, on the road for decades to come.
Modern cars will not push start on a dead battery - the alternator won’t engage and the engine computer won’t have the juice to boot up to tell the alternator or the fuel pump to engage.
Also: As long as your battery is not dead dead (which, barring the freakest of freak occurences, comes with a lot of warning), just having a jump starter in your emergency kit covers it. Pop the trunk (which can be REALLY annoying on modern cars with only partially dead batteries…), grab it, and jump your car. Bonus points is you don’t need to frantically leap into the driver’s seat before you crash into a parked car.
Subaru, when not in Sport mode. Problem is, the same monkey brain in some people that hates everything but manual also hates the way CVT doesn’t have gears for most people in general, so they make fake shifts to satisfy the monkey brain in people.
Nope. When Nissan came out with them they acted like normal CVTs without shift points, but people hated it so they added them in, and now they all do it.
Fair enough. I usually take ten or twenty minutes of “So… let me just crank the radio up so you can’t hear me mangling your transmission” in a parking lot/empty roads to “remember” how to drive stick, but it is a much more active style of driving.
But that has nothing to do with safety. And, arguably, is considerably worse for it since it is less time focused on the road and, more importantly, the sides of the road. It is basically the opposite of the “autopilot” versions of Adaptive Cruise Control where it increases distractions and leads to less attentive drivers for whatever insanity other people are going to do.
If I were buying a super fast fun car to use at the track or whatever? Well, I would want paddle shifters because the real vroom vrooms have those. But a stick shift and a clutch are a close second.
But for something that I am going to drive in rush hour traffic or do a 10 hour drive to my favorite climbing spot every couple weeks?
I think traffic is the cause of a lot of the loss of interest in manuals. Live somewhere to get good salary and a good car, that place usually has bad traffic.
Driving a manual in traffic sucks, even worse when you start getting a cramp in your clutch foot while in said traffic. I loved driving manual but i don’t miss it when i remember those days
Ferrari does it because they openly disdain their own customers. You will get performance the Ferrari way and you will like it. You’re lucky we even allow you to buy it. We put in the finest dual clutch transmission available because that’s the highest performance.
Lamborghini does it because they’re Audi’s with sharp edges. Audi is a company that advertises that its top trim can fit a set of golf clubs in back. They don’t want to bother their golf customers with a third pedal.
Their target demographic doesn’t care about manuals. Their buyers either are most likely buying a status symbol and the ones who are actually looking to drive them are looking to emulate the F1 / IMSA experience where absolutely none of those cars are manuals
CVTs, in apples for apples comparisons, kind of are the best of both worlds.
In theory they have advantages, but in practice they’re probably the worst kind of transmission you could get right now unless you’re driving a low-horsepower econo-car. (Even then I don’t think I’d want one; I’d rather pay a little more for gas than risk an expensive early transmission failure.)
I mean, the reality is that manual/standard transmissions are just fuel and effort inefficient at this point. There was a window where automatics were inefficient enough to make learning stick worth it but that is LONG gone. And CVTs, in apples for apples comparisons, kind of are the best of both worlds.
Still pretty shocked since I don’t think anyone buys a ferrari or a lambo because they want a reasonable high quality car and nothing screams “I am compensating” like wrapping your hands around that shaft while you drive but… if the goal is performance?
The main reasons you wanted a manual back in the day was price - because automatic transmissions were expensive - and fuel economy - because they were less efficient. (To a lesser extent reliability, because automatics were newer and they hadn’t worked out the kinks yet.)
However, the price of automatics fell, and the dual-clutch gearboxes with 7-10 gears are even more efficient because they keep the car in the most efficient rev range. Same goes for CVTs. And the dual-clutches shift faster than you ever could, so they’re better for sports cars, which is why F1 switched to them a long time ago.
So it makes sense that manuals are falling out of favor because they’re objectively worse in all respects compared to the transmissions available today. However, subjectively they’re a lot more fun which is why I have a manual transmission car I plan on keeping on the road well into the 2050s.
Fun and more control. I too am in the I bought a manual club. Twice my truck and my wife’s car are both manual transmissions with a clutch (third pedal).
I guess some of the new dual clutch transmissions are considered manual 🤔
I love manuals but while they do give more control than a basic automatic transmission, I don’t think I could argue that they give more control than an automatic with paddle shifters.
Neutral downhill…
A manually-shiftable automatic obeys your suggestion to shift if and when it feels like it. A manual transmission shifts RIGHT THE FUCK NOW as you move the lever.
I have only tried paddle shifters on other people’s cars so I couldn’t do anything too exciting. They will really refuse to shift sometimes even if the result would be within the operating parameters of the engine/transmission? Is that just a problem with some models or is it universal?
I do admit that I enjoy the feeling of being able to blow up my engine if I feel like it… (Actually I’m not sure the synchros would let me do that.)
To be clear, “an automatic with paddle shifters” (or in general, a manually-shiftable automatic) does not necessarily imply a fancy dual-clutch transmission derived from F1 cars or whatever. Sometimes, like in my automatic-transmission car, it just means you get a + and - on the gear lever and still have a torque converter instead of one clutch (let alone two).
But yes, the one thing that is true in any modern car without a third pedal is that when you push the stick to + or - or pull on the paddle shifters, all it’s doing is sending an electrical signal to a computer that mediates between you and the car and decides whether your input will be followed or not. It won’t allow a downshift that would cause an overrev (probably in any car, even the most track-oriented ones), in many cases (especially in less-sporty cars) it won’t hold a low gear and let you keep the engine at redline but will instead upshift even if you do nothing, and in many cases it won’t hold a high gear as you come to a stop and will instead start you off in first again instead of fifth like a real manual would do. And last, but not least, those computer decisions and solenoid activations and whatnot take at least some non-zero amount of time, which – even if it’s a fancy dual-clutch and the total time interval between gear N being engaged and gear N+1 being engaged is way shorter than any human could manage – it can feel laggy because you give the input and then it acts, as opposed to a real manual where your hand on the gear stick and your foot on the clutch pedal are doing the action to the car directly.
Which is why you call the gear change ahead of when you intend to. When you do it right and get familiar with how long the delay is on that car, you will nail it every time.
For day to day driving, maybe not.
But if I’m trying to to break the back end out, engine brake downhill, or have a dead battery and want to pop the clutch to start it I really want a manual transmission or a sequential gearbox.
I also can rebuild a manual in my garage (and have) so I’m more comfortable with something I can easily service if I need to. I drive 20 year old cars and intend to keep them, and any other car we buy, on the road for decades to come.
Modern cars will not push start on a dead battery - the alternator won’t engage and the engine computer won’t have the juice to boot up to tell the alternator or the fuel pump to engage.
I’ve tried. Many times. 20 years ago.
Also: As long as your battery is not dead dead (which, barring the freakest of freak occurences, comes with a lot of warning), just having a jump starter in your emergency kit covers it. Pop the trunk (which can be REALLY annoying on modern cars with only partially dead batteries…), grab it, and jump your car. Bonus points is you don’t need to frantically leap into the driver’s seat before you crash into a parked car.
A stick shift is also a fantastic anti-theft device.
My truck won’t stall in first if you slide your foot off the clutch when it’s completely pressed, so your results may vary.
Removed by mod
Subaru, when not in Sport mode. Problem is, the same monkey brain in some people that hates everything but manual also hates the way CVT doesn’t have gears for most people in general, so they make fake shifts to satisfy the monkey brain in people.
Nope. When Nissan came out with them they acted like normal CVTs without shift points, but people hated it so they added them in, and now they all do it.
I just find manuals more fun and engaging to drive. Even an 80hp shitbox is better with a manual.
Fair enough. I usually take ten or twenty minutes of “So… let me just crank the radio up so you can’t hear me mangling your transmission” in a parking lot/empty roads to “remember” how to drive stick, but it is a much more active style of driving.
But that has nothing to do with safety. And, arguably, is considerably worse for it since it is less time focused on the road and, more importantly, the sides of the road. It is basically the opposite of the “autopilot” versions of Adaptive Cruise Control where it increases distractions and leads to less attentive drivers for whatever insanity other people are going to do.
If I were buying a super fast fun car to use at the track or whatever? Well, I would want paddle shifters because the real vroom vrooms have those. But a stick shift and a clutch are a close second.
But for something that I am going to drive in rush hour traffic or do a 10 hour drive to my favorite climbing spot every couple weeks?
I think traffic is the cause of a lot of the loss of interest in manuals. Live somewhere to get good salary and a good car, that place usually has bad traffic.
Driving a manual in traffic sucks, even worse when you start getting a cramp in your clutch foot while in said traffic. I loved driving manual but i don’t miss it when i remember those days
Manuals are for the fun cars, not the dailys
Depends on your daily commute. I have daileyed manuals for 6 daily drivers.
Ferrari does it because they openly disdain their own customers. You will get performance the Ferrari way and you will like it. You’re lucky we even allow you to buy it. We put in the finest dual clutch transmission available because that’s the highest performance.
Lamborghini does it because they’re Audi’s with sharp edges. Audi is a company that advertises that its top trim can fit a set of golf clubs in back. They don’t want to bother their golf customers with a third pedal.
Half of them have had hip replacements, and half of them were on the left side, so they can’t work the clutch.
Their target demographic doesn’t care about manuals. Their buyers either are most likely buying a status symbol and the ones who are actually looking to drive them are looking to emulate the F1 / IMSA experience where absolutely none of those cars are manuals
If I had a car that powerful I wouldn’t want a manual either, no matter how fun it is. I’d grind the gears into powder on the first fast start.
Reminds me of this conversation from Top Gear
In theory they have advantages, but in practice they’re probably the worst kind of transmission you could get right now unless you’re driving a low-horsepower econo-car. (Even then I don’t think I’d want one; I’d rather pay a little more for gas than risk an expensive early transmission failure.)
Subaru WRX with the Performance Transmission be like
I haven’t tried them myself (I’m not a big WRX fan in general) but I hear a lot of complaining about them and not a lot of praise.
Got a bunch of friends with them, across the board everyone hates the CVT