Let’s say just like for example like MacOS. It’s awesome we have so many tools but at the same time lack of some kind of standardization can seem like nothing works and you get overwhelmed. I’m asking for people that want to support Linux or not so tech-savy people.
On top of being preinstalled, we also need google search-able instructions that avoid the terminal altogether. People are afraid of the terminal, it doesn’t matter why, it just is.
Currently, most solutions to linux problems come in the form of terminal commands. We would have to start creating a whole new troubleshooting forum where instructions avoid the terminal and are just lists of buttons to press in a GUI. Probably helpful screenshots too.
Of course I have no idea if some things even have GUIs at all, like configuring user groups and permissions or firewall settings, someone would need to make them. Not to mention every DE or program would need a different set of instructions, GNOME or KDE, firewalld or iptables. It’ll be a lot of work.
I’m tech literate and use the command line daily. I enjoy how powerful it is but I also enjoy the ease of point and click on windows.
After a hard day coding at work I much prefer poking around windows than using a command line on Linux.
I will say part of problem is knowledgeable volunteers will almost always want to just cp and paste a command string over the docs needed to walk someone through doing it in the current version of GUI.
I’ve done both. Repeatable user instructions for GUIs IS NOT FUN. Maybe if we can get some automation to turn vague directions into detailed ones and better yet testable (supporting something like OpenQA) it might help lower the burden for a project to do so.
I searched but never ever found a website with Linux help specially for non IT people. This is seriously needed. Everywhere I’ve looked, gatekeepers with no clue about the GUI solutions, insist people use the command line for day to day user tasks. Sure things vary between desktop environments, but it’s important people learn about their desktop. It’s how they get comfortable, and stay. And not stuck reliant on strangers having to spoon feed them cryptic text commands each time. I’d be happy to help contribute. As I’ve found GUI ways to do nearly everything.
This is the biggest thing. I’m very comfortable in Bash, but that is not the norm; the second my wife needs to run
sudo apt get, she’s out, fuck thatBut that’s several pages of point and click vs. a few lines to copy and paste,
Do not copy and paste into Bash if you don’t understand the commands you’re pasting in
Who said I don’t understand them? I’ve done point and click tutorials. They don’t only take forever to follow, they also take forever to make.
Look at this monstrosity:
Holy shit, the copy and paste parts are the easiest parts of them all
Fair; that was mostly a general warning, not necessarily directed at you, because many people do copypaste terminal commands without knowing what they are actually doing.
As long as you understand what a command does, absolutely go for it. No point typing that shit out when somebody else already has
Honestly maybe we need something like a portable guided tour format (you the “see what’s new in …” things but from strangers for specific thing).
That’s an interesting idea, but the problem with UIs is you need some kind of a format to interact with all of the toolkits and legacy programs just to be able to figure out where on the screen the button you need to click is
Right. I feel like maybe Free Desktop standard, tight integration with top toolkits (qt, gtk, etc) and a some image recognition for fall back.
Copy pasting strange commands people will not memorise does not solve it! To keep non IT people on Linux, they need to find out how their desktop GUI works, so they are in control and happy to stay. The aim is not to use the minimum possible time writing the tips. Thrusting an unfamiliar environment on people is sure to scare them away, and is bad usability.
Thrusting in an unfamiliar environment is how I got an STD
Immutable distros like Silverblue or Bazzite are the only path I see that can work for normies. However flatpak itself has to mature more, theming anomalies need to be dealt with somehow for example.
Mint is only good to ease a technically inclined person into the linux world.
More appealing? Linux runs basically all server infrastructure where even Microsoft bent the knee for Azure & Windows Subsystem for Linux. If we are talking about Desktop Linux, it will remain popular with those building software for easier/better dev tooling & wanting to better understand the systems their production code is run on. As software becomes more intergral to our lives & knowing how to write/debug it rises, folks will slowly keep trickling in as the have for decades where more & more software is treating Linux (& the web, & since BSDs, et al. are running similar software such as GTK they are also included) as a primary target. The other desktop OSs continue to shoot themselves in the foot injecting ads into the OS or denying system-level access to the machine you own.
A would say a better focus is mobile Linux… as casual users have migrated away from desktop OSs, where Android & iOS’s walls are holding them captive.
lack of some kind of standardization
Standardization = monopoly risks. It’s not worth it in the first place.
Let’s say something like systemd standarization.
Such stuff is almost perfectly standardized on Linux (and the risks are there too).
List me what is standardized on Linux.
I’m not that much of an expert but I know display protocols, init system and audio protocol (there are 2 but the new standard supports stuff made for the older one) are standardized.
They are getting closer to this but also I think those projects emerged from being old and unorganized so they want to do it decently.
MacOS being a bad example here since Apple only needs to make its OS work on a very small set of hardware that they control wheras Linux (and Windows, yes) need to work on probably hundreds of thousand if not millions of devices (including Macs 👌) with at least the same amount of peripherals combined in almost any imaginable way. That’s a completely different task.
Whether any OS could ever just work isn’t even going to solve the issue.
Getting OEMs to sell laptops and desktops in Best Buy (or the like) that have Linux installed and is properly supported — that is what will help solve the issue.
having it just work is a necessary step to gett there
When there exists an operating system that can satisfy that qualification, I’ll concede the point. Until then, OEM and retail support is what matters.
Maybe we are too used to Linux working on anything but with some imperfection.
And yet it again leads to oficial supported hardware.
It is very hard, time consuming and boring to iron out those finishing issues in any software product. You need team of people being paid for that.
When doing it for fun, I just go until it works and until it is fun. As soon as I come to those last 20% I never touch it anymore.
So ai doubt it will happen until more companies start paying decelopera to do it. But I don’t see the business model in that, so I doubt it will get better fast.
After getting used to KDE I still need to use windows for work. People think big companies iron out all the bugs but they really don’t. We’re just so used to our default OS that we don’t notice the bugs we deal with every single session.
Windows has tons of buggy base functionality but users just work around it. KDE’s base functionality is actually quite solid by comparison. You only run into issues with more technical compositor stuff that an average user would probably not interact with.
I’m a very casual Linux user and in my experience, I’ve NEVER had a problem with a documented solution that didn’t require going down a rabbit hole of other references.
Something like this: “To get the trackpad to work with Ubuntu, make sure you’ve installed the hergelbergelXX package.” (No link, find it on your own!)
Visit the HergelBergelXX page. To install Hergelbergel on Ubuntu, you must install the framisPortistan Package Manager. (No link!)
On the FramisPortistan GitHub readme, we discover it requires the JUJU3 database system to be installed. “JUJU3 may cause conflicts with installed USB devices under Ubuntu” JUJU2, which shipped with Ubuntu, is no longer supported. Also we recommend Archie&Jughead Linux over other distributions.
And this essentially never stops.
All of this is comparatively a happy result—I actually DID post a question on linuxnoobs about getting my trackpad to work with Ubuntu… and have not had a single reply. I have no idea how to find out how to make it work.
Hat a problem with WLAN on a laptop when I tried to install fedora. The solution was to install Linux mint with LAN\internet and let the driver manager figure it all out.
Maybe that helps.
I had similar stories getting Wireless Networking to work on some devices before. Good thing is, there are drivers for most, if not all, default hardware interfaces directly in the kernel nowadays and if a device has any sort of popularity it will be supported before long if it isn’t out of the box.
I’m not talking about a long-ago problem. I’m talking about a current install of Ubuntu.
Yes, presumably on hardware that’s just a bit too old or rare. Might be unlucky as Linux compatibility isn’t high up on OEMs lists
Most people have had great answers coming from the company side of things. I’ll take it from the standpoint of individuals like us helping someone linux curious see the light, while still having the “just works” experience.
Do not give them any choices. None. Put them on your stable distro of choice for a new user, call whatever that is “Linux”, and be on your way.
But why? Isn’t that antithetical to everything we value? Yes and no. We value choice almost above anything else, but that doesn’t “just work” for most people. Which of those do you value more?
No-one who buys a PC with windows preinstalled gets any choice at all… and had the preinstalled malware cme with it.
That’s true. Most are perfectly fine provided they have a computer ready to use. Straight out of the box. Immediately. The lack of choice itself is comforting. Everything moves forward. No lateral motion.
We must provide them that type of “thing that just works”. Constantly move forward. What is comfortable. What is familiar.
So reading all of your responses
- Tested and preinstalled hardware
- One resource to solve the issue not many
- Customizablity when needed
- Easy rollback when something breaks
- Changing people mindset that Linux isn’t for desktops
Does anyone have more?
The problem is, that no operating system “just works”. It also highly depend on what the person wants to achieve, and if there are any pre experience with computers or even relying on existing software or specific hardware. My recommendation is not to tell people the illusion of “just works” and be honest upfront. People should learn how it works, what to expect and if tradeoffs, time and resources are worth it.
Same is true for the other way too. Does Windows “just works”? Especially if someone switches from Linux to Windows.
Rather, we should teach the reasons to switch and encourage that decision. In example why it matters to have control over your system, rather than the company has control over it (MacOS and Windows) or why spying on you is bad (Windows). And encourage giving up something you are used to (and maybe paid). Sometimes its okay to use a program that is not as good as Photoshop. Sometimes its okay to give up playing a videogame you like (and maybe associated with friends playing that game with you). But most people are not ready to do it, because that is associated with lowering quality of life.
I switched in 2008 from Windows XP to Ubuntu. I know these struggles. And they are not over yet. This is an ongoing task between my brother and me too, and he was using the Steam Deck, but decided to go with Windows 11 with the recent build. It was almost there, but there is always a butt. I say, don’t tell people that “Linux just works”. No operating system “just works”.
I hate to say this, but windows rarely breaks itself from updates. basic things like the desktop, audio and the lock screen is essentially never broken after an update.
yeah it may reset the audio settings and other such things, and I don’t know how do they manage to do that, but that’s relatively simple to revert.
probably it’s just thanks to old, battle tested code though. can’t wait for Linux desktop systems to reach that point
Most common Linux distributions focused on stability do not randomly break with updates. That’s usually not an issue. Basic things like Desktop and audio or lock screen are also never broken after an update. But it depends on the Linux operating system you are using (there are thousands of Linux operating systems and they can vastly differ) and what hardware and habits you have. Windows biggest strength is that it gets the most support from developers and being basically only one distribution to target.
But calling Windows “battle tested code” is a bit of stretch. Windows is full of problems and I had my own issues due to updates of Windows (when I was using it in dual boot). Also in Linux I can update and do not boot until I want to boot. I can decide not to update. Overall I have more trust in Linux updates (even using on Archlinux) than Windows updates. Microsoft constantly fucks up updates. And they even introduce and install stuff you don’t know or want to.
An old story of mine buying Civilization 6 at launch on Windows was unplayable. After days and contacting support, turned out it was a Skype installer that was installed with a Windows update without my knowledge. And it was just an installer to install Skype, not even running. Removing it made my game Civilization 6 playable. I never had such an issue on Linux.
I tried switching to Linux many years ago (forgot what distro). It was hell.
I don’t remember the specifics anymore, but I remember encountering issues almost every step of the way. Driver support, not being able to find the right buttons, etc. Searching for fixes usually led me down a rabbit hole of “oh cool this user on this forum said in another thread that I just need to install Gobbledegook… But what is it and how do I install it?” and of course a bunch of things require CLI which I’m not fantastic at. Unfortunately I gave up after a week.
Compared to that, Windows really “just works”. I have had my share of frustrations, but it’s usually with stuff that’s comparatively an edge case when compared to the problems I had with Linux. I don’t like that I’m giving money/data to a megacorp, but the price of that is convenience. I don’t churn my own butter, I don’t build my own car, I don’t want to think too much about how my OS works under the hood.
Also, Linux does not auto-update itself, and that’s bad mostly when looking at the programs (like the web browser) that did that automatically, and here it can’t anymore.
I understand that most users don’t update their system and the utils they downloaded, but that’s essential for a web browser.
I was considering that I should just install Firefox as the fatpak for everyone, instead of the core package manager, for this and other reasons, but my users have so little memory in their old machines that it’s already barely necessary.
By telling users to change their mindset, by showing em how control is important and how the “just werks” mentality imposed by Microsoft is more detrimental than anything.
“Just works” is not a mentality imposed by Microsoft, and has nothing to do with loss of control. It’s simply (a consequence of) the idea that things which can be automated, should be. It is about good defaults, not lack of options.
It was literally the tag line for Windows 98 I think!
The gag was that it just (barely) works.
Linux is a tool that big corporate entities have profited greatly from for many years, and will continue to. Same with BSD, Apache, Docker, MySQL, Postgres, SSH…
Valve, Sys76, Framework, etc. Are proving that using Linux to serve an end user market is also profitable, and are capable of supporting enterprise use-cases.
I understand that there may be specific problems to solve wrt improving adoptability, usability, compatibility, etc., but Linux is doing more than ok within the context of the FOSS ecosystem (and increasingly without).
Your thinking is slightly skewed, IMHO. Linux doesn’t have an inherent incentive to compete with MacOS or MS, and if it did, it would be subject to the same pressures that encourage bad behavior like spying on users, creating walled gardens, and so forth.
But Linux is open source? So if hypothetically so distro adopted spying al la windows couldn’t people just change distros? tbh I also think the question is slightly confusing as I don’t understand why OP thinks Mac OS is not standardized but I digress.
Yeah sure, a distro could start spying on users. How easy it would be would depend on their distribution model, and how willing they are to violate the GPL.
I think Linux works so good right now, that most of the appeal will come from third party vendors supporting Linux. The few anticheats and big apps like photoshop and sony vegas are used by many and are still a big obstacle which Linux can’t magically fix that easily.
What I’ve also noticed makes it appeal a lot to the people around me, is that when suggesting Linux, I also offer them tech support free of charge for whatever problem they have.
More GUI front ends for stuff. This takes away the need to understand command line tools and syntax, and makes the out-of-the-box experience feel more like it just works.
SUSE / OpenSUSE has this. You can open Yast2 GUI utilities and access all the GUI utils like Windows old Command Center. Hardware, package and driver installs, add hardware and configure, network, enable services and tweak parameter, printer tools, mess with boot options or kernel parameters, etc. The average user would never need to touch CLI
Exactly. That’s Windows’ secret. Give us a control center where it’s easy to control NetworkManager, Pipewire, systemd, and other parts of the OS, and give them not-so-technical names. That’s one of the keys to Windows’ success. Others involve EEE and anticompetitive practices but we don’t want Linux going that way now, do we?
It’s not that Windows isn’t complicated, it’s just that there’s a GUI for everything.
Yip. I was trying to find a useful front end to manage the audio settings on my focusrite audio interface. Pipewire has the functions and capability to set the sample rate and buffet size on the fly but I failed to find a gui until for it that wasn’t part of some other complicated thing. When I suggested the Devs of pipewire should provide a GUI I was politely shot down. The reasons given were; it takes too long, and Linux users don’t mind the CMD line. I think this is a mind-set that needs to evolve.
