The problem with this take is that you cannot conversely punish the duopoly by withholding your vote, regardless of whether or not you think they “earned” it. Even if you don’t vote, one of them still gets in. The problem is, the people who are going to vote for the significantly worse of the two options are very motivated to vote, and they will do so.
How is giving your vote to whoever becomes the largest by not voting winning anything? You can do all the other things you mentioned and still make a conscious choice to do the least harm by not voting a demagogue in. It’s just one of the many steps you can take as a person wishing to influence the world around you.
Just like eating no meat or less meat. Will it fix everything wrong with farming? No. Does that mean you should just start buying more meat and not eat it, letting it rot in your fridge instead? Also no! No one cares if you did that and it accomplishes nothing except make the problem much worse, which is exactly what not voting gets you.
If we protest, but then don’t vote, nothing will change. So voting in records numbers is the answer. Specifically, in our present case, voting for the party that wants to improve things incrementally over fascists.
Please provide examples to justify your claim. I’d like to know more. I’ll give you your first one since it’s everywhere in the headlines nowadays - weapons to Israel.
Believing in lies doesn’t make them true. The Republicans are fascists who believe immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country and that the genes of people of color predispose them to be criminals. Just because Republicans believe it doesn’t make it true.
And the Democrats are perpetrating a genocide, sending cops and SWAT after students and people protesting that genocide, not letting them talk at the DNC, and trying to suppress their freedom of speech and assembly. That’s also very fascist.
The Democrats are neoliberals. As neoliberals, they are both center-right and institutionalists, so they do stuff like police crack downs on protesters. This is not fascism on its own. Denying a speaking slot to the Uncommitted Movement was a strategic failure, but it is not fascism.
Biden is a Zionist, so on top of sticking to 70 years of US foreign policy of allying with Israel he has been actively complicit in genocide. Zionism is a form of fascism that attempts to manipulate Jews and Christians alike to build a Jewish ethnostate. Not everyone who is a self-described Zionist is inherently bought into the actual ideology. There are plenty of people who want a place for Jewish people to be safe. Zionism is not that, but there have been plenty of people who have been fooled into thinking it is. Biden is not a fascist, but he has given the fascists in Israel nearly everything they wanted. Thankfully Biden has so far refused Israel’s request to attack Iran.
Also, thankfully Kamala is running for president, not Biden. Kamala is not a lifelong Zionist. Kamala has said she is willing to defend Israel, but being willing to defend a long standing ally is not the same as letting them do whatever they want. Under Kamala, the Democrats are going to do everything in their power to get a ceasefire deal to end the war and the genocide.
Trump is on record as saying Israel needs to finish what they started. Trump is going to let Israel complete its genocide of the Palestinians. He’s going to allow the war to continue indefinitely so Benjamin Netanyahu can stay out of prison, deny Palestinian statehood, and form a greater Israel by conquering as much of the Middle East as possible.
The Republican Party has been taken over by the fascist MAGA movement, not the Democratic Party. Trump is the fascist, not Kamala. And Trump being elected would be worse for the Palestinians and the Middle East as a whole. So we should strategically vote for Kamala.
Kamala has already said they won’t institute an arms embargo, which is basically the one material thing she can do to restrict Israel, and has put all the blame on Iran. Without that on the table and the other rhetoric, she’s saying the same thing as Trump but with nicer words, she will allow them to finish the job. Sure she’s covering it by saying she’ll try for a ceasefire, but so has Biden for months now and that’s gone well. The war with Iran she’s hinting at is basically Biden’s policy and it plays right into Israel’s hand. It let’s them continue the he genocide, avoid a ceasefire, take more land, keep elections suspended and Bibi in power, and let’s us continue to destabilize the Middle East as we have always done. Trump’s rhetoric is bloodthirsty, Kamala’s is ostensibly more apologetic (except for the most lethal army in the world bit), but in the end, it’s the same thing.
I was hopeful Kamala was different than Biden, too, but so far, she has not shown any difference whatsoever. To believe otherwise is naive, it’s trusting in the same lie that’s been repeated for months and led to nothing. She’d have to say something concrete to change my mind again, like she’s replacing Blinken with someone more progressive or she will agree to stop vetoing resolutions against Israel, or something. Just saying you’re going to work at a ceasefire without saying how is just running on vibes.
We are currently in a fascist regime; both parties are heavily lobbied by corporations that dictate policy.
That’s not fascism.
People continue to struggle more and more under both parties, while they play political theater to continue to divide us.
100% people need to engage more. And in national elections quit voting for 3rd parties. Showing solidarity with and not dividing themselves from the rest of the left. Till our voting system is reformed and 3rd party presidential candidates are no longer a mathematical impossibility. With the only message being sent, that you’re safe to ignore.
Voting outside the two-party system will help establish that people do have standards when voting.
That’s literally the exact opposite of what it does.
Yes, and a good percentage of the populace decides to stay in and not reward the duopoly with their vote.
Then they get the lack of change they’ve committed to.
Why is it that any time these pseudo-intellectual “leftists” pop up to spew their bullshit, they’re knocked back by like… 5-10 people that absolutely school them and in the end, all they can respond is-
“Nuh-uhh!”
And then rinse and repeat the following day. What do they think they’re accomplishing? I mean, it’s especially very telling that they’re downvoted into the dark ages on a platform that supposedly leans heavily in their direction.
This says a lot in my opinion. In that there may be hope for lemmy once the election is over and these vapid people eventually collapse in on themselves like a dying star.
THEY ALWAYS COME BACK. But it will be quieter for a year or two. If they’re sincere, and some are. They’re suffering form the same mental weakness/illness that the MAGATS are. They want to believe they are righteous, correct, and in possession of special knowledge or insight. That they believe those that disagree with them can’t comprehend.
If they’re not sincere. Well they’re still like the MAGATS. Malicious, spiteful, and crab mentally. Either hypocritically, simply anti-west like most ML you see. Or benefiting disproportionately on the backs of labor. And know the best way to keep labor down. Is to divide it against itself. Kind of like ML governments do as well.
Reading comments like this is unbelievably frustrating, because you’re so close to being right, but you refuse to take that next tiny step, which makes you dangerously wrong.
Yes, both parties are lobbied out the ass, it’s bad and it’s wrong, but which party at least tries to mitigate the harm? Yes, there’s unproductive political theater that divides, but which party at least tries to talk about real issues that matter to everyday voters?
Your approach is akin to burning down the house instead of doing the hard work of fixing the roof. You will never get the outcome you imagine by voting for a third party, unless you do the hard work of improving our overall system, from inside the system. You play the game with the team you have, not the team you want.
We are currently in a fascist regime; both parties are heavily lobbied by corporations that dictate policy.
People continue to struggle more and more under both parties, while they play political theater to continue to divide us.
Voting outside the two-party system will help establish that people do have standards when voting.
Yes, and a good percentage of the populace decides to stay in and not reward the duopoly with their vote.
The problem with this take is that you cannot conversely punish the duopoly by withholding your vote, regardless of whether or not you think they “earned” it. Even if you don’t vote, one of them still gets in. The problem is, the people who are going to vote for the significantly worse of the two options are very motivated to vote, and they will do so.
Yeah. Somehow they think that if they don’t vote- no one gets elected. They don’t understand that a decision will be made without their input.
Or they do, and that’s the entire point.
Lord.
The Lord won’t help us on this one; we need to be the ones to fight for what we demand.
The civil rights movements happened because people were fed up with the status quo.
How is giving your vote to whoever becomes the largest by not voting winning anything? You can do all the other things you mentioned and still make a conscious choice to do the least harm by not voting a demagogue in. It’s just one of the many steps you can take as a person wishing to influence the world around you.
Just like eating no meat or less meat. Will it fix everything wrong with farming? No. Does that mean you should just start buying more meat and not eat it, letting it rot in your fridge instead? Also no! No one cares if you did that and it accomplishes nothing except make the problem much worse, which is exactly what not voting gets you.
Again, the duopoly is the staus quo, it will not help fix the systematic problems our society faces.
Then get involved in a 3rd party that works against the republican fascists and coordinates with Democrats for ballot access like WFP.
Whining about “the duopoly” and not voting will just move things further right.
There is the right to cast a vote, also a right to protest.
Please don’t confuse the two and protest by not voting.
Voting and protesting: to create a better society, people need to be willing to demand more than what the status quo can provide.
Heads up. “Left of Shill Stein” is what most know to be called democrats.
The presidential election year before the Voting Rights Act of 1965 saw relatively high voter turnout. 61.4%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections
People voted in the Democratic Party candidate by a wide margin. 61.1%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_United_States_presidential_election
If we protest, but then don’t vote, nothing will change. So voting in records numbers is the answer. Specifically, in our present case, voting for the party that wants to improve things incrementally over fascists.
I see the duopoly as the fascists, though…
Please provide examples to justify your claim. I’d like to know more. I’ll give you your first one since it’s everywhere in the headlines nowadays - weapons to Israel.
Believing in lies doesn’t make them true. The Republicans are fascists who believe immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country and that the genes of people of color predispose them to be criminals. Just because Republicans believe it doesn’t make it true.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/07/trump-immigrants-crime-00182702
And the Democrats are perpetrating a genocide, sending cops and SWAT after students and people protesting that genocide, not letting them talk at the DNC, and trying to suppress their freedom of speech and assembly. That’s also very fascist.
The Democrats are neoliberals. As neoliberals, they are both center-right and institutionalists, so they do stuff like police crack downs on protesters. This is not fascism on its own. Denying a speaking slot to the Uncommitted Movement was a strategic failure, but it is not fascism.
Biden is a Zionist, so on top of sticking to 70 years of US foreign policy of allying with Israel he has been actively complicit in genocide. Zionism is a form of fascism that attempts to manipulate Jews and Christians alike to build a Jewish ethnostate. Not everyone who is a self-described Zionist is inherently bought into the actual ideology. There are plenty of people who want a place for Jewish people to be safe. Zionism is not that, but there have been plenty of people who have been fooled into thinking it is. Biden is not a fascist, but he has given the fascists in Israel nearly everything they wanted. Thankfully Biden has so far refused Israel’s request to attack Iran.
Also, thankfully Kamala is running for president, not Biden. Kamala is not a lifelong Zionist. Kamala has said she is willing to defend Israel, but being willing to defend a long standing ally is not the same as letting them do whatever they want. Under Kamala, the Democrats are going to do everything in their power to get a ceasefire deal to end the war and the genocide.
Trump is on record as saying Israel needs to finish what they started. Trump is going to let Israel complete its genocide of the Palestinians. He’s going to allow the war to continue indefinitely so Benjamin Netanyahu can stay out of prison, deny Palestinian statehood, and form a greater Israel by conquering as much of the Middle East as possible.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
The Republican Party has been taken over by the fascist MAGA movement, not the Democratic Party. Trump is the fascist, not Kamala. And Trump being elected would be worse for the Palestinians and the Middle East as a whole. So we should strategically vote for Kamala.
Kamala has already said they won’t institute an arms embargo, which is basically the one material thing she can do to restrict Israel, and has put all the blame on Iran. Without that on the table and the other rhetoric, she’s saying the same thing as Trump but with nicer words, she will allow them to finish the job. Sure she’s covering it by saying she’ll try for a ceasefire, but so has Biden for months now and that’s gone well. The war with Iran she’s hinting at is basically Biden’s policy and it plays right into Israel’s hand. It let’s them continue the he genocide, avoid a ceasefire, take more land, keep elections suspended and Bibi in power, and let’s us continue to destabilize the Middle East as we have always done. Trump’s rhetoric is bloodthirsty, Kamala’s is ostensibly more apologetic (except for the most lethal army in the world bit), but in the end, it’s the same thing.
I was hopeful Kamala was different than Biden, too, but so far, she has not shown any difference whatsoever. To believe otherwise is naive, it’s trusting in the same lie that’s been repeated for months and led to nothing. She’d have to say something concrete to change my mind again, like she’s replacing Blinken with someone more progressive or she will agree to stop vetoing resolutions against Israel, or something. Just saying you’re going to work at a ceasefire without saying how is just running on vibes.
Maybe the real fascists were the friends we made along the way
That’s not fascism.
100% people need to engage more. And in national elections quit voting for 3rd parties. Showing solidarity with and not dividing themselves from the rest of the left. Till our voting system is reformed and 3rd party presidential candidates are no longer a mathematical impossibility. With the only message being sent, that you’re safe to ignore.
That’s literally the exact opposite of what it does.
Then they get the lack of change they’ve committed to.
Why is it that any time these pseudo-intellectual “leftists” pop up to spew their bullshit, they’re knocked back by like… 5-10 people that absolutely school them and in the end, all they can respond is-
“Nuh-uhh!”
And then rinse and repeat the following day. What do they think they’re accomplishing? I mean, it’s especially very telling that they’re downvoted into the dark ages on a platform that supposedly leans heavily in their direction.
This says a lot in my opinion. In that there may be hope for lemmy once the election is over and these vapid people eventually collapse in on themselves like a dying star.
THEY ALWAYS COME BACK. But it will be quieter for a year or two. If they’re sincere, and some are. They’re suffering form the same mental weakness/illness that the MAGATS are. They want to believe they are righteous, correct, and in possession of special knowledge or insight. That they believe those that disagree with them can’t comprehend.
If they’re not sincere. Well they’re still like the MAGATS. Malicious, spiteful, and crab mentally. Either hypocritically, simply anti-west like most ML you see. Or benefiting disproportionately on the backs of labor. And know the best way to keep labor down. Is to divide it against itself. Kind of like ML governments do as well.
Reading comments like this is unbelievably frustrating, because you’re so close to being right, but you refuse to take that next tiny step, which makes you dangerously wrong.
Yes, both parties are lobbied out the ass, it’s bad and it’s wrong, but which party at least tries to mitigate the harm? Yes, there’s unproductive political theater that divides, but which party at least tries to talk about real issues that matter to everyday voters?
Your approach is akin to burning down the house instead of doing the hard work of fixing the roof. You will never get the outcome you imagine by voting for a third party, unless you do the hard work of improving our overall system, from inside the system. You play the game with the team you have, not the team you want.