13% of Democrats agree with Trump on that.
What the actual fuck?
Worth noting that the ancient Greeks believed that democracy is impossible without an ethnically homogeneous population. Otherwise, they believed that there would be too many different competing intentions, that politicians would not have any clear direction and it would be very difficult to get anything important resolved. People love making emotional arguments regarding inclusivity, which is hard to reject without sounding boorish, but there are actual practical concerns with the situation.
I mean, I don’t want to be too rude but look at the European democracies who are typically praised in contrast to the U.S. Their populations have been significantly more ethnically homogenous, and only recently have they begun to deal with significant immigrant populations of differently colored peoples. How have they done? Immediate rise of far-right groups and tons of anti-immigrant propoganda.
I’m not claiming the Greeks were right, I think they had a small-minded view of what diversity could bring them, but it is an interesting observation.
On the other hand look at the US, which has been extremely successful as an ethnically diverse republic and in fact wouldn’t be nearly as successful without that diversity. America has problems, but none of them are because there are a lot of different people there.
I mean, the massive number of racists who are currently trying to elect a fascist would disagree, and I think many minority groups would disagree that there haven’t been problems in the very recent past.
Certainly, the fault lies in the racists, but we can’t pretend that is not a problem directly caused by having an ethnically diverse country. It’s one that we’ll need to find a solution for, because otherwise we’ll always have a group who is willing to burn democracy to the ground because they hate people who have a different skin color.
I think many minority groups would disagree that there haven’t been problems in the very recent past.
I mean there are problems for minorities, but not for America as a whole I mean.
because otherwise we’ll always have a group who is willing to burn democracy to the ground because they hate people who have a different skin color.
I think it’s debatable they only do it because they hate people with a different skin color. They also hate women and poor people, among other things, so while the rhetoric would be different I don’t think being a 100% white country would do much to curb the American far right.
Yes, but they also thought that women were inferior to men and slavery was an awesome idea, so maybe they aren’t the best people to look back on for opinions.
and yet the entire enlightenment political infrastucture we have built is based on their ideas.
Nonsense. The Enlightenment was inspired by many ancient Greek and other philosophers, not just advocates of Athenian democracy.
ok.
That’s why you consider the reasons presented by those who invented democracy, rather than simply accepting an idea based entirely on who presented it.
You don’t have to answer me, but ask yourself if our current societies have too many competing ideals, that it’s hard to get anything important done.
They invented direct Athenian democracy.
The U.S. is the first constitutional republic. They are extremely different. This is like saying NASA engineers should consider why the Wright Brothers never left the atmosphere.
America’s problems have nothing to do with what the Ancient Greeks believed.
13% of Democrats agree with Trump on that.
More proof of fake respondents. Basically some people, for whatever reason (depending on the poll it could be financial) just speed run the polls with no thought about what they’re clicking on. So it makes any extremely unpopular view appear more supported. I can’t find much about how this was done, if it was an online opt-in poll I’d be especially suspicious.
Edit: it seems this was done with a Ipsos KnowledgePanel, which as I suspected is an online, paid, opt-in panel. This is exactly the kind of design that’s prone to speed running for cash.
Any good pollster adds questions for quality control and throws out the result if they’re answered improperly.
I’m struggling here to avoid being offensive - but really, Americans often appear to me to be averaging subhuman intelligence.
Yesterday I was reading about Latino MAGA’s who just assume Trump isn’t talking about them…
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. - George Carlin
Great man, that George Carlin, great man.
I’m not saying America is the center of world intellectualism, but you’re also getting quite a selection bias since “stupid American” stories are even popular to other Americans.
Removed by mod
I thought that same
But actually, after visiting Denver I was super surprised by how friendly and normal people were
I’d easily live there (and no, I’m not a weed smoker. Never tried it, no plans to, do doesn’t influence my decision)
Using “subhuman” for persons while arguing against eugenics…
You can’t make that stuff up
everyone thinks they are the leopard eating faces until a bigger leopard eats their face.
Just a reminder, there were “Jews for Hitler”. We can guess what happened to them after hitler rose to power.
They built a space laser?
This might be a controversial take, but I don’t think racist bigotry is an intelligence thing
The study and measure of intelligence itself is a piece of the rationalization of racism.
We owe a lot of our scientific inheritance to genociders and racists and eugenicists - I wouldn’t be quick to assume the MAGA base is just a bunch of dimwitted Americans.
When 33% of the population agree that immigrants ‘poison the blood’ - what’s your take on that?
Should we assume that some very well balanced people believe that foreigners have poisonous blood?
My take? That a third of the american population has taken a liking to fascism.
Fascism isn’t borne out of stupidity, it’s borne out of greed and desperation. Sure, some of those people are probably as dumb as a bag of rocks (any slice of the american population is liable to have a few), but most are likely just your average-intelligence american who has taken their feelings of fear or envy and rationalized them into fascism.
People like Josef Mangele don’t become famous because they’re dumb - they become famous because they end up wielding their intelligence against humanity. If we were to assume that everyone with those beliefs is dumb, we’d misunderstand what motivates them and we’d waste our time trying to educate them out of bigotry.
its the 100% venn overlap of racists. america is still pretty full up on people who hate other people for no reason but race
The real racists are the ones calling people racist just because they hate people for no reason but race.
How?
Obvious sarcasm getting down votes …
I was seriously considering adding a /s but I was like nah, that’s lame it should be obvious.
Poe’s Law strikes again. There are people who actually say that and mean it.
I feel that they would at least change the framing instead of directly mirroring the OP. “Hating people for no reason but their race” is pretty clearly the definition of racism. Usually racists reframe their argument as actually being about criminality or at the very least some fear of cultural change.
Racists are not a protected group. Its totally fine and important to hate racists
Don’t 30-40% of any given population support a strong man/fascist anyway?
Which immigrants? They said that about Italians, then Irish. Seems the new guys on the block are always the bad guys until they aren’t.
Elon Musk is an immigrant. Let’s start there
Literally African-American.
Can we bring back lynching for a day? Just for him?
Lynching? Because he’s technically African-American? Wow dude.
I agree with ending the rich and nationalizing their fortunes, but that’s a bad joke.
No?
Wtf.
No no. Just for him. There’s a special place in hell for him and his clique, and the more painful way to deliver him there the better.
Seems like the usual 1/3 that agrees with trump on whatever. Not gonna change.
You’re all immigrants you idiots.
We are indeed, and…we are indeed.
i live in a small town full of old people who incessantly whine about people “moving here and trying to change things” from other parts of the country. while sitting on stolen cherokee land.
among americans there is this weird fucked up notion that we are, and always were, entitled to this land, and no one else is allowed on it. including the people who were living here first. it’s been passed down through generations since the first colonists and still remains, even among democrats. so we hate “other,” but we especially hate them when they move into town. and god fucking forbid they ever speak anything but 'murican
for context, my town still has a confederate statue because the usual “bUt MuH hIsToReEeEeEeEs”
Nuh uh. I was born here. My parents were born here. (/s, of course)
Let’s not go back any further than that because it hurts the argument.
For context, I am 50% Italian, 25% French, 12.5% Irish, and 12.5% English. At least going off what my parents had told me. I never did a DNA test or anything.
It’s been barely 60 years since racism against Italian- and Irish-American individuals really eased up. All based on xenophobia and an anti-Catholic belief. Before that, they may as well have been Black. Or worse, Japanese.
Tons of people alive today that experienced it first hand. Did all the lead in the paint and gasoline make them forget all about it?
Even still today we have to tiptoe around ideas like renaming Columbus Day. On the one hand, he was a massive piece of shit. On the other hand, it’s morphed into the only holiday celebrating Italian-American heritage. I very much agree with the former, but if we are gonna go all-out on St. Patrick’s Day, Italians should have a day too.
Maybe we could make a bigger deal out of St. Joseph. I could really go for a zeppole right about now, but that’s really all I know of the day. It’s a day for a zeppole.
After working construction for decades I can say that American workers are shit compared to foreigners. Muslim workers are the hardest. Especially from Ethiopia or Somalia. They learn fast too and are better in many cases than Mexican or SA workers. PLUS no drug or alcohol or daddy/mommy/religious issues.
When I was building in Africa we finished a project 3 days early. They didn’t even have the skills, we taught on site. That would NEVER happen with regular Americans.
Those are immigrants though. Have you ever seriously looked into the bullshit you need to go through to move to another country? It’s insane.
Every immigrant is more impressive than any Olympian.
One third of Americans are fascists.
Checks out.
I think it’s probably important to find out why this is, rather than just wag the finger and move on. Because, if the trend continues the non fascists will be outnumbered. In fact, I would say that this is really saying that 1/3rd of Americans feel free enough to say this. There’s a good chance there’s a silent amount afraid to say their true thoughts.
If it’s just outside brainwashing, then investigate that. If there’s a genuine root concern that is causing this attitude, see if it can be reasonably addressed. If it’s just idiocracy happening, well then we’re all screwed.
I would posit the opposite - if the trend continues, fascists will shrink further. You gotta remember, horrors of the past are not that long ago. Wasn’t all that distant in our past when segregation had majority support, or blanket bans on nonwhite folk becoming naturalized citizens, or eugenics before that.
If we beat them now, we can continue the next four years to fight to shrink the hold that fascist views have on our society still further.
I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don’t think I’d dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that’s probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
My thinking is that there’s usually a root cause for this. If that’s something that can be addressed, then it probably should be looked into. I’m not ruling out that a large proportion of people are just stupid and/or easily led though.
From my point of view I see a shift to the right happening in Europe too. So, there’s definitely a trend. The question for me, is why is it happening now? Outside influences for example?
I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don’t think I’d dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that’s probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
I would argue that there’s a big difference in supporting fascists and supporting fascist policies. Not because supporting fascists is meaningfully better, but because ignorance means that many people who support fascists, but not fascist policy, are salvageable outside of the tribalist borders of election season.
God, the number of ‘swing voters’ you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party’s actual politics is… just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. ‘Pro-life’ supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such ‘reasonable’ measures.
Not to be confused with embarrassed conservatives, who will take all those positions if pressed, but immediately revert once in friendly company. I’m talking about people I’ve given no hint of my politics to and no leading statements but suss out that they simply have no goddamn clue what they’re talking about.
They’re the ~17% of the country that’s not fascist, but very well may hand over the country to fascists this coming election. And if that happens, they’ll genuinely have no fucking clue how fascism took power.
They’re not good citizens. They are absolutely supporting fascism in this coming election. But in the long term, they can be saved. In the long-term, they don’t need to be a blight on this country’s politics.
God, the number of ‘swing voters’ you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party’s actual politics is… just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. ‘Pro-life’ supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such ‘reasonable’ measures.
Here in the UK I sometimes think most people know more about US politics than domestic politics. So, I know how this kind of ignorance can happen.
But then, if you’re suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that’s also the point I’m making too. Because that’s finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they’ve been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
Regarding the “embarrassed” conservatives. I wonder if they’re more just conservatives that are following the flow of their fellow conservatives, not really considering the full impact the result may have. You don’t need to look further than the running mate, to see how republicans are happy to endorse trump, even though they don’t stand for most of what he says. Because winning matters most. I wonder if some conservatives are casting a blind-eye to the fascist undertones, because overall they will otherwise get what they want?
But then, if you’re suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that’s also the point I’m making too. Because that’s finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they’ve been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
That’s what I mean about embarrassed conservatives - they’re a different (though also horrifically common) scenario than swing voters. Embarrassed conservatives (ie people with fascist views) are likely, in an anonymous poll, to fully fess up to thinking immigrants are ‘poisoning the blood’ of the country.
The folks I’m talking about don’t hold fascist views, but they have all the ‘right’ tribalist labels, and no clue what they actually mean in terms of policy proposals. To them, it may as well be saying “I am Pro-Good and Anti-Bad”. If you ask them, in an anonymous poll, about a policy position or statement, you’ll likely get a response that’s not bugfuck insane - but their voting habits are indistinguishable, because they have no clue about the actual state of politics in this country. Or any country. Or of politics in general.
Sooo…. A third of Americans have no problem admitting that the part of their brain that processes logic and reason is irreparably damaged.
More like not developed. Though I suppose a bit of both.
I was at a Ska show last night. They played a tRump ad about the border before the music. We almost left. Surreal, honestly, for the type of crowd I would expect.
Music and politics are super weird. Paul Ryan, former Republican speaker of the house, was an RATM fan until Tom Morello told him to fuck off. Ann Coulter is a massive Deadhead. So is Tucker Carlson. There’s even a photo of Tucker hanging out with Jerry Garcia when he was in his 20s. The story is in an interview here if you can stomach it: https://www.maxraskin.com/interviews/interview-with-tucker-carlson
And then there’s the musicians themselves- Johnny Ramone, Alice Cooper, Gene Simmons, all conservatives.
Yeah, I get it. I was really into Dead Kennedys and Jellos spoken words. The whole movement was anti-rayguns. It’s just super weird. I imagine Paul Ryan is so dumb he didn’t realize he was the forces in which we we were raging. Conservatives are not big on context. i.e. YMCA…
Music and right-wing politics are weird. I can’t even begin to count how many bands were proudly anti-war in the 70s. Then there’s the punk movement, which was highly critical of Reagan and Bush.
I guess music and a message of hope/protest works better than a message of oppression, especially when appealing to youth.
Springsteen’s Born in the U.S.A. is about a Vietnam veteran who has been fucked over by the country he came back to.
Reagan used it as part of his flag-waving “it’s morning in America” bullshit because no one listened to the lyrics beyond “I was born in the U.S.A.”
Yeah, it’s like Trump playing CCR’s Fortunate Son. Fogerty was pissed.
Some folks are born made to wave the flag Hoo, they’re red, white and blue And when the band plays “Hail to the chief” Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord
It ain’t me, it ain’t me I ain’t no senator’s son, son It ain’t me, it ain’t me I ain’t no furtunate one, no
Some folks are born silver spoon in hand Lord, don’t they help themselves, Lord? But when the taxman come to the door Lord, the house lookin’ like a rummage sale, yeah
It ain’t me, it ain’t me I ain’t no millionaire’s son, no, no It ain’t me, it ain’t me I ain’t no fortunate one, no
Yeah-yeah, some folks inherit star-spangled eyes Hoo, they send you down to war, Lord And when you ask 'em, “How much should we give?” Hoo, they only answer, “More, more, more, more”
It ain’t me, it ain’t me I ain’t no military son, son, Lord It ain’t me, it ain’t me I ain’t no fortunate one, one
Dude, I have anxiety (/s) from some of the people I have heard blast this. Like…YOU ARE the FORTUNATE ONE…the square footage of your pool would beg to differ on the amount of oppression the system is hoisting upon you :)
He also plays YMCA at the end of his rallies constantly. I guess his audience doesn’t know what that song is about or who The Village People even were.
Springsteen should allow them to use the song but without the music just the lyrics.
Nothing could keep me there.
Immigrants are the blood of the US. This fascist bullshit is the poison.
When my Jewish roommate told his parents he was dating a gentile they told him he was “thinning the blood”
All you pale face non-natives gyit the fuuuck out!
To be fair, a significant percentage of those non-natives didn’t choose to be here in the first place.
Not the paleface ones, but…
