I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don’t think I’d dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that’s probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
My thinking is that there’s usually a root cause for this. If that’s something that can be addressed, then it probably should be looked into. I’m not ruling out that a large proportion of people are just stupid and/or easily led though.
From my point of view I see a shift to the right happening in Europe too. So, there’s definitely a trend. The question for me, is why is it happening now? Outside influences for example?
I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don’t think I’d dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that’s probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
I would argue that there’s a big difference in supporting fascists and supporting fascist policies. Not because supporting fascists is meaningfully better, but because ignorance means that many people who support fascists, but not fascist policy, are salvageable outside of the tribalist borders of election season.
God, the number of ‘swing voters’ you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party’s actual politics is… just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. ‘Pro-life’ supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such ‘reasonable’ measures.
Not to be confused with embarrassed conservatives, who will take all those positions if pressed, but immediately revert once in friendly company. I’m talking about people I’ve given no hint of my politics to and no leading statements but suss out that they simply have no goddamn clue what they’re talking about.
They’re the ~17% of the country that’s not fascist, but very well may hand over the country to fascists this coming election. And if that happens, they’ll genuinely have no fucking clue how fascism took power.
They’re not good citizens. They are absolutely supporting fascism in this coming election. But in the long term, they can be saved. In the long-term, they don’t need to be a blight on this country’s politics.
God, the number of ‘swing voters’ you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party’s actual politics is… just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. ‘Pro-life’ supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such ‘reasonable’ measures.
Here in the UK I sometimes think most people know more about US politics than domestic politics. So, I know how this kind of ignorance can happen.
But then, if you’re suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that’s also the point I’m making too. Because that’s finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they’ve been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
Regarding the “embarrassed” conservatives. I wonder if they’re more just conservatives that are following the flow of their fellow conservatives, not really considering the full impact the result may have. You don’t need to look further than the running mate, to see how republicans are happy to endorse trump, even though they don’t stand for most of what he says. Because winning matters most. I wonder if some conservatives are casting a blind-eye to the fascist undertones, because overall they will otherwise get what they want?
But then, if you’re suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that’s also the point I’m making too. Because that’s finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they’ve been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
That’s what I mean about embarrassed conservatives - they’re a different (though also horrifically common) scenario than swing voters. Embarrassed conservatives (ie people with fascist views) are likely, in an anonymous poll, to fully fess up to thinking immigrants are ‘poisoning the blood’ of the country.
The folks I’m talking about don’t hold fascist views, but they have all the ‘right’ tribalist labels, and no clue what they actually mean in terms of policy proposals. To them, it may as well be saying “I am Pro-Good and Anti-Bad”. If you ask them, in an anonymous poll, about a policy position or statement, you’ll likely get a response that’s not bugfuck insane - but their voting habits are indistinguishable, because they have no clue about the actual state of politics in this country. Or any country. Or of politics in general.
I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don’t think I’d dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that’s probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
My thinking is that there’s usually a root cause for this. If that’s something that can be addressed, then it probably should be looked into. I’m not ruling out that a large proportion of people are just stupid and/or easily led though.
From my point of view I see a shift to the right happening in Europe too. So, there’s definitely a trend. The question for me, is why is it happening now? Outside influences for example?
I would argue that there’s a big difference in supporting fascists and supporting fascist policies. Not because supporting fascists is meaningfully better, but because ignorance means that many people who support fascists, but not fascist policy, are salvageable outside of the tribalist borders of election season.
God, the number of ‘swing voters’ you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party’s actual politics is… just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. ‘Pro-life’ supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such ‘reasonable’ measures.
Not to be confused with embarrassed conservatives, who will take all those positions if pressed, but immediately revert once in friendly company. I’m talking about people I’ve given no hint of my politics to and no leading statements but suss out that they simply have no goddamn clue what they’re talking about.
They’re the ~17% of the country that’s not fascist, but very well may hand over the country to fascists this coming election. And if that happens, they’ll genuinely have no fucking clue how fascism took power.
They’re not good citizens. They are absolutely supporting fascism in this coming election. But in the long term, they can be saved. In the long-term, they don’t need to be a blight on this country’s politics.
Here in the UK I sometimes think most people know more about US politics than domestic politics. So, I know how this kind of ignorance can happen.
But then, if you’re suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that’s also the point I’m making too. Because that’s finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they’ve been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
Regarding the “embarrassed” conservatives. I wonder if they’re more just conservatives that are following the flow of their fellow conservatives, not really considering the full impact the result may have. You don’t need to look further than the running mate, to see how republicans are happy to endorse trump, even though they don’t stand for most of what he says. Because winning matters most. I wonder if some conservatives are casting a blind-eye to the fascist undertones, because overall they will otherwise get what they want?
That’s what I mean about embarrassed conservatives - they’re a different (though also horrifically common) scenario than swing voters. Embarrassed conservatives (ie people with fascist views) are likely, in an anonymous poll, to fully fess up to thinking immigrants are ‘poisoning the blood’ of the country.
The folks I’m talking about don’t hold fascist views, but they have all the ‘right’ tribalist labels, and no clue what they actually mean in terms of policy proposals. To them, it may as well be saying “I am Pro-Good and Anti-Bad”. If you ask them, in an anonymous poll, about a policy position or statement, you’ll likely get a response that’s not bugfuck insane - but their voting habits are indistinguishable, because they have no clue about the actual state of politics in this country. Or any country. Or of politics in general.