The bite actually doesn’t kill you, it just shuts down your nervous system so you can’t breath.
People if given cpr immediately (kind of need someone to know it’s what bit you) till it wears off / get on a ventilator will live.
I remember reading about someone who survived. They got but, and a team started doing cpr. The only issue was his eyes were open the entire time on a hot sunny day. So he was blind after the damage the hot sun did.
Correct, nothing can move, not your lungs, not your eye lids, nothing. So he went very blind from staring at the sun for 30mins straight while people did cpr until ambulance arrived
I would personally imagine that you may need to be defibrillated at some point but otherwise probably yes? The toxins are causing the paralysis and people do survive it so I can only imagine that the heart takes back over after a certain amount of effort. Otherwise, I don’t actually know.
Gotcha. My CPR training was so long ago, and the only relevant information that really stuck with me was “the AED will directly instruct you if it thinks a shock is helpful based on what it detects”, after that the specifics just kinda fell through my brain.
It would take a very large dose to affect the heart and even then it would just lead to a slower heart rate instead of stopping it. The heart does not need nerves to tell it to beat and it’s action potential triggering is different than muscles and nerves. They’ll be brain dead from being without oxygen before they’re heart dead, similar to opioid overdoses.
Hindsight is 20:20. It may seem obvious when you’re sitting here reading about it, but if my buddy was suddenly paralyzed I’d probably be too preoccupied with keeping his blood moving and oxygenated to have the extra processing power to think about whether his eyes needed to be closed.
Breathing - famous for being optional for those that would like to live.
Yes, there have only been around 3 people killed by them (largely because they’re shy, aquatic, and somewhat uncommon), and intervention can be made to stop them from killing you, but they’re one of the most toxic animals on the planet, and are unquestionably deadly.
We do have a lot of experience with their toxin though, since so many other animals people like to eat and play with also use TTX like newts(on their skin itself), pufferfish, and sea slugs. The blue ringed octopuses are just unique in using it as a venom. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507714/
The bite actually doesn’t kill you, it just shuts down your nervous system so you can’t breath.
I feel that’s like saying “getting mauled by a bear doesn’t kill you, it just causes major lacerations so all your blood leaks out”. Technically sure, but it seems like a bit of a pedantic distinction…
You’re not totally wrong but some things are not so easily treated as with rescue breathing. This is the same problem with any paralytic agent (e.g. botulism) is that the mechanism of death is suffocation since you can’t breathe. But from a rescue standpoint its really easy to breathe for someone whereas its not easy to stop multiple lacerations leading to exanguination and I think that is the point they were making is that this could be a survivable event if a rescuer is nearby.
Getting bit by a venomous snake in Australia and you’re blood starts to disassemble itself. The only counter is antivenom or die. Your blood breaking down is what kills you. And there is no way to separate the bite from that.
Being able to counter the venom in such a simple way is what makes it different. You can logically break it down into steps that are separable.
Yeah that’s mostly true… But it’s not like a hangover… I had a friend bitten by a snake out in the Mojave once and I’m sure she would have strong opinions about how strenuous the recovery was from it. Neurotoxins, especially potent ones, can be disruptive enough to create long term disabilities. If you are someone who performs a lot of skilled fine motor movements as part of your job or as part of a hobby or something it could be a significant amount of time for you to fully recover from a neurotoxin.
Cytotoxins are interesting as well, though generally not considered deadly they can really mess up your quality of life and be extremely debilitating, even disfiguring.
Generally just a good idea to stay away from anything venomous.
So what you’re saying is I should take a date to see the blue ring octopus. Then I should get stung and tell them to give me CPR for a few hours or I’ll die.
It’s not the heavy metal poisom that kills you, it just shuts down your nerve cells from restoring its membrane potsntial.
It’s not corona that causes you to die from suffocation, it’z just the immun response that results in changes to the mitochondria, powerhouses of the cell, and shortness of breath.
It’s not the cancer that kills you, it’s the organ failure!
Hmm, does one also not feel pain during such event? Also what happens in your head during it? Are you conscious or it also just shuts down your brain as whole?
It depends on the dose, but yes you can be conscious with respiratory failure due to TTX. If you get a large enough dose you’ll lose vascular tone and go into shock. At that point even CPR may fail to save you because what you really need is vasopressor drugs.
The bite actually doesn’t kill you, it just shuts down your nervous system so you can’t breath.
People if given cpr immediately (kind of need someone to know it’s what bit you) till it wears off / get on a ventilator will live.
I remember reading about someone who survived. They got but, and a team started doing cpr. The only issue was his eyes were open the entire time on a hot sunny day. So he was blind after the damage the hot sun did.
Blind as permanently blind?
Correct, nothing can move, not your lungs, not your eye lids, nothing. So he went very blind from staring at the sun for 30mins straight while people did cpr until ambulance arrived
What about the heart?
Thus the CPR, I would imagine.
Does it just automatically restart beating after effects wear off?
I would personally imagine that you may need to be defibrillated at some point but otherwise probably yes? The toxins are causing the paralysis and people do survive it so I can only imagine that the heart takes back over after a certain amount of effort. Otherwise, I don’t actually know.
Defibrillation is only useful if the problem is your heart is doing some kind of fibrillation.
If it’s not beating at all, other methods like manual massage or chemical restarts (epinephrine) are the right move.
Gotcha. My CPR training was so long ago, and the only relevant information that really stuck with me was “the AED will directly instruct you if it thinks a shock is helpful based on what it detects”, after that the specifics just kinda fell through my brain.
You might need external/transesophageal pacing with a severe exposure to TTX, but that would only be temporary. It shouldn’t cause v fib.
Gotcha! My brain did the “heart stop = defibrillator” thing. Thanks!
It would take a very large dose to affect the heart and even then it would just lead to a slower heart rate instead of stopping it. The heart does not need nerves to tell it to beat and it’s action potential triggering is different than muscles and nerves. They’ll be brain dead from being without oxygen before they’re heart dead, similar to opioid overdoses.
Yep.
They couldn’t close their eyelids.
Better blind than dead.
Too bad no one had a shirt or something they could’ve covered their eyes with…
Hindsight is 20:20. It may seem obvious when you’re sitting here reading about it, but if my buddy was suddenly paralyzed I’d probably be too preoccupied with keeping his blood moving and oxygenated to have the extra processing power to think about whether his eyes needed to be closed.
😂
Is it though?
Breathing - famous for being optional for those that would like to live.
Yes, there have only been around 3 people killed by them (largely because they’re shy, aquatic, and somewhat uncommon), and intervention can be made to stop them from killing you, but they’re one of the most toxic animals on the planet, and are unquestionably deadly.
I’m shy, aquatic and uncommon
We do have a lot of experience with their toxin though, since so many other animals people like to eat and play with also use TTX like newts(on their skin itself), pufferfish, and sea slugs. The blue ringed octopuses are just unique in using it as a venom. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507714/
deleted by creator
Ah, great to know! I’ll be taking my kids down there for some blue octopus pets 😁
I feel that’s like saying “getting mauled by a bear doesn’t kill you, it just causes major lacerations so all your blood leaks out”. Technically sure, but it seems like a bit of a pedantic distinction…
You’re not totally wrong but some things are not so easily treated as with rescue breathing. This is the same problem with any paralytic agent (e.g. botulism) is that the mechanism of death is suffocation since you can’t breathe. But from a rescue standpoint its really easy to breathe for someone whereas its not easy to stop multiple lacerations leading to exanguination and I think that is the point they were making is that this could be a survivable event if a rescuer is nearby.
I was thinking “it’s not the fall that kills you, it’s the sudden stop at the end.”
It’s not the sudden stop at the end that kills you. It’s the different times at which parts of you stop.
It’s not the different times at which parts of you stop that kills you. It’s the different places they are in when they do.
(C’mon, y’all. Help me out. I’m trying to start a thing here!)
Getting bit by a venomous snake in Australia and you’re blood starts to disassemble itself. The only counter is antivenom or die. Your blood breaking down is what kills you. And there is no way to separate the bite from that.
Being able to counter the venom in such a simple way is what makes it different. You can logically break it down into steps that are separable.
Yeap, but that’s because the venom is a hemotoxin rather than a neurotoxin.
Correct.
For the hemotoxin, you aren’t going to “just wait for the effects to wear off.” The toxin will kill you.
For the neurotoxin, you can just wait out the effects by countering the symptoms. Can’t breathe? Respirator can save your life.
The hemotoxin itself is doing terrible damage, but the neurotoxin itself doesn’t do any “damage” other than disabling systems.
Yeah that’s mostly true… But it’s not like a hangover… I had a friend bitten by a snake out in the Mojave once and I’m sure she would have strong opinions about how strenuous the recovery was from it. Neurotoxins, especially potent ones, can be disruptive enough to create long term disabilities. If you are someone who performs a lot of skilled fine motor movements as part of your job or as part of a hobby or something it could be a significant amount of time for you to fully recover from a neurotoxin.
Cytotoxins are interesting as well, though generally not considered deadly they can really mess up your quality of life and be extremely debilitating, even disfiguring.
Generally just a good idea to stay away from anything venomous.
Reminds me of people who insisted COVID didn’t kill anyone because it was the symptoms that actually killed people
So what you’re saying is I should take a date to see the blue ring octopus. Then I should get stung and tell them to give me CPR for a few hours or I’ll die.
Get bitten by that spider that gives you a permanent boner first to make it super awkward.
Well, at least you won’t be embarrassed for long after she turns you down.
It’s win win
It’s not the heavy metal poisom that kills you, it just shuts down your nerve cells from restoring its membrane potsntial.
It’s not corona that causes you to die from suffocation, it’z just the immun response that results in changes to the mitochondria, powerhouses of the cell, and shortness of breath.
It’s not the cancer that kills you, it’s the organ failure!
I think it is in the duration of hours, rather than minutes before wearing off.
So yes, a team in rotation is required for CPR, or one triathalon participant.
Hmm, does one also not feel pain during such event? Also what happens in your head during it? Are you conscious or it also just shuts down your brain as whole?
It depends on the dose, but yes you can be conscious with respiratory failure due to TTX. If you get a large enough dose you’ll lose vascular tone and go into shock. At that point even CPR may fail to save you because what you really need is vasopressor drugs.