Fault is on everyone
-
Non-voters and trump voters
-
russian propagandists
-
“useful idiots” telling people to not vote harris for perceived evil
-
democratic leadership for not having a better platform
-
Kamala Harris, who just cant stop getting pulled towards cheneys like a magnet
-
Joe “I don’t wanna quit yet, even tho I’m old as fuck” Biden
-
republicans, who just want to destroy democracy
Everyone is at fault
Miserable, isn’t it?
People want one easy foe to blame, and to exonerate all other forces. Tribal mentality. Absurd from a supposedly educated modern population, but here we are.
Nearly everyone who had a serious hand in this election is guilty for this fucking debacle. Some by action, some by inaction; some by malice, some by incompetence, some by ignorance, some by sheer fucking stupidity.
What a fucking shitshow this all was. And will be for the foreseeable future.
The denial of some assholes on here go through is incredible. They won’t hold anyone accountable for their vote. Like who the fucks voting? The DNC isn’t voting. No group is voting vicariously for anyone. No one is mandating you vote. People vote. And many people let themselves be misled, and shirked all personal responsibility to understand who is leading the country and why and how. The half that voted for that orange asshole fucking deserve what’s coming to this country. I fucking hate it here.
Democrat bad. That only thing matter
Pretty much. Buncha crogmags
-
Trump won. Deal with it and eat shit. Your political scene is a fucking joke and a plutocracy for sale regardless of who is at fault here. Any outcome other then setting the congress on fire is not a good outcome.
You don’t want to set it on fire? Then shut the fuck up already.
Is this an anti-democracy post? Is OP saying people shouldn’t be allowed to vote…?
No, it’s mocking the idea that voters aren’t responsible for their own choices, and that the Dems running a dogshit campaign means that voting for fascism or sitting it out and letting fascism take the reins of the country is somehow okay.
The Dems ran a shite campaign. The Dems are absolutely guilty in this shitshow of fascism we find ourselves in. But the people who deny all moral agency to the voters who sat by and said “Yeah, voting against fascism just isn’t that exciting” is absurd. They’re fucking guilty too.
No he’s saying we must vote for one of the two parties, thereby manufacturing consent for whatever they decide to shovel down our throats.
And you’re here trying to tell people to either not vote or vote third party and any time someone points out that just was the death of America you have to deflect. You’re reliable to do it in every thread. It is gross.
Hahaha no. First of all, politicians have used that bit of PR in every election I’ve ever seen. So that might be a clue as to why you ran around shouting about it and people were like, “yeah, and?” Secondly, I actually shut up about it before the election.
I do not blame people who voted for third parties or write ins. At worst, they make a compelling point to campaigns - that there are many voters that are active, but want another option.
Oh so you’re one of the non voters who helped Trump win?
Oh so you’re the guy who makes assumptions that make you feel more comfortable.
Still mad, huh?
It’s not even inauguration and we’re going to have to deal with 4 more years of Mr. Trump’s wild ride. Why wouldn’t I “still” be upset?
No, OP and I got into an insanely long argument about this exact thing yesterday that I’m honestly kinda embarrassed I engaged with for so long. Then i woke up to this meme, so…I guess he’s still mad.
Posted this long before the conversation had run its course, but it’s cute that you’re still thinking of me. :)
Alright, since you asked so nice, I won’t put it in the newspaper.
Resoonds within 1 minutes “I’m not mad, you’re mad! Look how mad you are!”
Alright, bro, I’m clearly mad. Ya got me. Oh no.
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Uh, sorry for being online at the same time as you? lmao
What a nice fellow
And yet, here you are still engaging in other places I guess 🤷♂️
Removed by mod
Both can be true
I didn’t vote. That’s the democrats fault. They didn’t run anyone I would vote for in ‘16, 20, or 24
It’s the Democrats’ fault that you prefer fascism to spineless liberals?
This is a very convincing argument to vote democrat, you must have changed so many minds before the election by shitting on anyone who questioned the status quo.
This is how we got Trump. Good for us.
If the spineless liberals are empowering the fascists even in years when they hold the majority, then there is no difference between the two.
“Both sides are literally the same”
How predictable. All of us who are going to suffer under the Trump regime thank you for being privileged as fuck.
I’m a LGBT+ person of color, don’t get self righteous on me, white boy.
Oh, so you’re voting for my death AND your own, how wonderful. So you’re not selfish, just malicious.
You’re fucking melodramatic, aren’t you? We didn’t let Trump kill us off last time, and we’re not going to let it happen this time either. But don’t worry, while I know democrats can’t be bothered to get off your lazy fucking asses and protest, the trans and LGBT community has armed leftists to support us. We’ll be just fine, so don’t you worry, no need to cancel brunch.
You’re fucking melodramatic, aren’t you?
lol
-
People are busy with more important things than social media, YouTube’s, podcasts, and news.
-
People will vote with their communities to retain membership: MAGA, church, the family unit (sometimes).
-
it’s not uncommon for 60% of people not to vote.
-
Kamala didn’t distance herself from Biden. “They’re isn’t anything that comes to mind” was a coffin nail.
-
DEMs don’t sell it well. The story told has to be big enough and potent enough to pull in 1, 2, & 3.
-
What is the point of beating this dead horse? It solves nothing.
-
The Democrats used to promise real change and progress, but they’ve only proven themselves to be the party of stagnation in recent memory. Nowadays they don’t even try to inspire their base, but rather scare them into submission with the threat of Trumpism.
Sure it’s better than the rapid decline into chaos that the order party is trending towards but this pattern of “a couple careful steps forward then a dozen strides sprinting backwards” isn’t working for Americans. Many of us have lost faith in the system because the system doesn’t work for us. What’s worse is that when we get a candidate who speaks to us, the Democratic establishment shuts them down with more efficacy than they ever seem to direct towards any of the Right’s regressive politics.
While I still fall in line and vote for somebody who I am not excited or inspired by in a seemingly futile effort to hold the line, many others have given up because their struggles aren’t being addressed or even acknowledged. You can yell at them and criticize them until you’re blue in the face but I can guarantee you they’re either so tuned out that they’ll never hear it or so dug into their own political ideals that they won’t receive it.
If you want their vote, you’re going to have to earn it.
If you want their vote, you’re going to have to earn it.
“The Dems need to change” and “Allowing fascism is not okay” are not mutually exclusive positions, and I hold to both.
And yet, Everytime I see someone talking about the Dems needing to change I see you playing goalkeeper. What’s up with that I wonder aloud for no reason?
And yet, Everytime I see someone talking about the Dems needing to change I see you playing goalkeeper. What’s up with that I wonder aloud for no reason?
I suppose because your sense of pattern recognition is damaged.
He’s not saying Democrats shouldn’t change, just acknowledging that this election result is not 100% on them
It’s 100% on them. They lost. That’s how democracy works. They didn’t allow a real primary. Their candidate sucked. Their messaging sucked. They ended up with the biggest loss in decades, losing all three branches of government and the popular vote. This is a failure on every level and they don’t get to blame voters.
I think you’re right and that’s ultimately why I voted for Harris but as your original point says either apathy or ignorance amongst many other Americans has grown to the extent that they are willing to risk declining into fascism.
Are we going to change that by telling them to stop being apathetic/ignorant and that fascism is bad? Because that seems to have been the primary strategy the Dems have run over the last decade and the only time it’s worked for them was when the effects of Trump’s incompetence was unavoidably present in the minds of Americans. I’d rather we not depend on another catastrophe to win the next election, assuming we will have one.
Are we going to change that by telling them to stop being apathetic/ignorant and that fascism is bad? Because that seems to have been the primary strategy the Dems have run over the last decade and the only time it’s worked for them was when the effects of Trump’s incompetence was unavoidably present in the minds of Americans. I’d rather we not depend on another catastrophe to win the next election, assuming we will have one.
No, the solution is much deeper and more multifaceted. The Dems have the approximate strategic competence of a walnut.
At the same time, the toxic positivity of ‘agree to disagree’ that has become increasingly present even through the radicalization of the right since the 1990s has allowed many people to entirely detach their increasingly fascist political choices from their social lives, and this must be reversed. The fact that many here on Lemmy seem hell-bent on playing apologist for allowing fascism makes the message particularly important to be said here - we are all responsible for our choices, our choices have moral implications, and we live with those choices forever. There is no washing your hands of your deeds, there is no sitting out and playing innocent. This is not (yet) a despotism; in a republic, citizens have political power, and with that political power, responsibility for what they do or do not do with it.
This is great. Needs a dash of misogyny though.
PROTIP: Dems being spineless, brainless cretins does NOT absolve anyone who said that sitting by and letting fascists take over the country was preferable! And yes, you CAN blame the voters for that!
The voters did not magically come to the ‘correct’ decision to sit this out by the spirit of democracy whispering in their ear; they did so because they believed that fascism won’t be ‘that bad’ to them, personally! And no amount of blaming Dems for being gutless corporate weasels can change that being an accomplice to deliberately driving fascists deeper into power is not a forgivable offense!
PROTIP: Dems being spineless, brainless cretins does NOT absolve anyone who said that sitting by and letting fascists take over the country was preferable! And yes, you CAN blame the voters for that!
I realize how old-man-ish this will sound (although in my defense I am literally becoming an old man) but there’s a widespread lack of personal accountability these days. Everything must always be someone else’s fault.
It’s an ancient problem. But it’s always frustrating to see it.
There is something wrong and I’m not sure it’s personal accountability. It may be my mental illness or just my antisocial behavior but I’ve never been able to ignore the broader issues with the world.
I’m not saying mental illness has distorted reality or something. I’m saying because I don’t function like everyone else everything seems inadequate for me.
I’m also not saying it’s good to be antisocial I’m saying I feel severe anxiety and dread after the simplest of human interaction and it exceedingly more difficult to manage as I get older. So there is no group think I am comfortable subscribing to because the group freaks me the fuck out.
What ever the cause I have this lense that seems to just be non-existent for most people. There could be a economic aspect to it but I do pretty well comparatively. The only difference between someone my age and myself is I might have less of a savings but my income is acceptable. I don’t have family support but I think generational wealth is few and far between. That could be wrong if you’re accounting for my demographic but it could also be skewed depending on where you live.
All this to say, some people are completely unconcerned with the condition of society. They are happy pretending everyone is like themselves where what is happening in government or around the world will never effect them personally. I do not share this view. Maybe it’s because I don’t have the dopamine to sustain the positive feelings that Bob Marleys “don’t worry, be happy” song represents but if we look at this election, they need my lense and their perspective can be thrown in the ocean.
This may or may not be relevant in your case, but one of the key goals of Russian propaganda is to create a widespread sense of apathy in the population: https://jordanrussiacenter.org/blog/propaganda-political-apathy-and-authoritarianism-in-russia
Yeah no. Fuck the democrats sponsoring a genocide.
No, fuck assholes who just killed America and Palestinians while using Palestinians as a prop. But yeah great job pretending to care about Palestinians a single fucking iota, they are in such a great spot due to your completely non-bullshit concern.
How those kids in cages doing under biden? All that asshole did was continue trumps policies but go offfffff fucking liberal
If you cared about Palestinians even a tiny amount you would have never ever been advocating against the only option that would’ve limited their suffering. So let’s admit to your fraudulency, lIbErTaRiAn
You know, fuck off, you’re blocked. I got better things to do than argue with electoralist liberals who push the status quo and by doing that push the country straight into fascism. Keep voting blue no matter who I bet next elections gonna work! I bet next time you’ll be able to reason with the fascists in both parties!
How those kids in cages doing? You know that was happening under biden right? Or because msnbc didn’t throw a shit fit over it once biden got elected it never happened right? Fucking sheep.
Go back to brunch liberal. You lost and you’re too stupid to figure out why.
Took me seriously about the brunch quip I see. I was being sarcastic. That shit was lame and stale years ago
Glad to be blocked by a fraud though. Now when I oppose your pathetically disingenuous bullshit my inbox won’t explode.
Yeah, fuck the Dems. Still doesn’t absolve any voter who thought that “More funds for the genocide + start a few others” was a good alternative.
I will never get these people struggling to understand the lesser evil rationale. Maybe it’s just on a scale and timeline that is for some too difficult to really internalize.
Maybe voting for lesser evil now would create even greater evil in the future.
MaYbE
I don’t think they’re struggling to understand it. They become quite excellent at understanding it once it turns to anything they support. China, Russia, Hamas, the Houthis, all the lesser evil. But for ‘some reason’ any time non-authoritarian regimes are involved, they become determined to ensure that the world knows that they’re willing to kill every last minority for their ‘principles’.
Yeah maybe you’re right. The thing that gets me is if they really understood how bad it could get under someone like Trump, like really understood how hard things can get and how fast it can happen - no way they’d hand him the keys to the country. There’s just a real disconnect there that I will never understand.
No, I think they still would. I really, legitimately think that they’re the secular equivalent of the Rapture lunatics I grew up with in an evangelical upbringing. They view the current state of affairs as a sinful world which must be destroyed by any means.
Some are young and don’t really remember much of his last presidency, so it couldn’t be that bad.
Some are staunch idealists who think voting lesser evil is the same as enthusiastic support.
Some are secret accelerationists who want things to get worse because they think the proletariat will spontaneously rise up if they’re desperate enough.
Some are bad faith actors trying to divide the left.
Some unironically think that both are equally bad.
That’s a lot of ways to say “stupid assholes”
I have zero shame voting third party but do continue to attempt to shame voters for voting wrong and see how that works for you.
“I don’t understand why minorities who are going to get the jackboot are so mad at me for welcoming the jackboot :((((((”
It’s truly inexplicable.
I am a minority.
In which case it should be readily apparent why voting for the jackboot gets other minorities pissed at you.
Lol keep supporting a genocider as the “lesser evil”
Fucking blue MAGA bullshit right there
Lol keep supporting a genocider as the “lesser evil”
You literally voted for as many genocides as you could, lmao.
Removed by mod
And you support genocide.
Great, now both can vote blue no matter who next cycle
And your support of Trump supported it harder. Please don’t bother with the “I didn’t vote for Trump” bullshit because you just admitted you threw your vote into the trash can to avoid any chance of voting against him.
Agree to disagree. Everyone has their priorities. Trump isn’t going to help Gaza either but will hurt Ukraine and immigrants and other of his enemies. I’m not shaming you, just trying to make you understand that the world is not a black and white place. Choices have consequences and we all live with compromise. Those who refuse to compromise are not helpful either magats or pure idealists like you. Both have a warped sense of the world. I’m not shaming you, just telling how it is. If that shames you then look more inside
Maybe dems will learn from their mistakes (they won’t)
So then why try to send the message?
Because they are lying about their motives and about being a minority. That or they’re fucking stupid
Because hurting the libs is fun. Y’all been fucking over the left for decades it’s time you fuck around and find out that you can’t win elections without us.
Go back to brunch.
LMAO dude it’s starting to feel like this brunch hangup is personal for you. Never get invited? Me personally, I don’t like brunch. It’s just an excuse for restaurants to raise prices.
Comrade, I’m a leftist frustratedly watching other people who call themselves leftists repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot with their purity nonsense. You’re the one sabotaging the left. We’re never going to get socialism, much less communism, with this stupidity.
Even here, on a website composed predominantly of leftists, you’re purity testing everyone and splintering the people. How the hell are you going to accomplish anything if you refuse to acknowledge or work with anyone except for the like 2 dozen people in the entire world who happen to have the exact same beliefs as you?
I want the end of capitalism: no more private property, no more oppressive hierarchies, real democracy, the works. I’m probably to the left of easily 99% of the country. If I’m a lib, comrade, who is this “us” you speak of? If no one to the right of me is pure enough, you’re not left with enough people to fill a school auditorium, much less lead a revolution. You’re not winning anything with those numbers, you’re a rounding error.
Or is it not a coincidence that your “hurt the libs” narrative is exactly the same goal of the far-right authoritarian party?
Yeah, anybody who decided to set aside the genocide and vote for Kamala anyway should already have a very clear understanding of how Trump voters can dislike him in many ways but still vote for him.
Significantly less comprehensible and more relevant to this conversation is the idea that Harris was bad on Gaza; therefore, Trump, who was even worse on Gaza, should be elected.
Also true
This is the most deranged thing I’ve ever read on this website.
“I am speaking”
No.
If you must vote and vote for the “correct” party then you don’t have a democracy. Either we exercised our democratic responsibilities this year or we lost our democracy a decade ago and we’re just now finding out about it.
Either way, lesser evil voting is not a democratic ideal.
lesser evil voting is not a democratic ideal.
Neither is staying home and not voting at all.
If you can’t abstain then you don’t have a democracy. (Yes Australia i’m looking at you) You have a system of coerced consent where the political parties wouldn’t even know how to change, but that’s okay because there’s no incentive to change in such a system either.
It’s literally the fastest way to get Party AB instead of Party A and Party B.
Great you started with the conclusion that not voting is fine and then tried to find a way to justify it. You failed.
I’m not going to write a 20 page paper for you. This is what it is. If people have to vote then the sitting parties have no reason to respond to voters.
What the hell are you talking about? Your solution to making democracy work seems to be telling people to stay home on election day. Fucking brilliant
No. The people can certainly go vote if they want. They can also stay home if they want.
You prefer the latter, or I wouldn’t see you defending that shit in every fucking thread.
Look up what “ideal” means, and note that it doesn’t mean “only option.”
You specifically chose the word. I am responding to that. And to that end: Not participating in an election is NOT an ideal way to have a democracy. In fact- it flies is the face of it.
Then people could abstain by writing in someone else. Not voting is a serious problem.
Write ins aren’t actually a free for all in most states. You have to qualify with signatures for the state to bother counting them. So no, not really.
If you must vote and vote for the “correct” party then you don’t have a democracy.
“Democracy is when I like the choices my fellow citizens make, and if I don’t like it, it’s not democracy”
Holy fucking shit. This is “Democracy is when GOOD, and non-democracy is when BAD” level reasoning.
You beat that strawman, go on. I heard it talk shit.
“If my practical choices are reduced by the preferences of my fellow citizens, it’s not real democracy”
Go on, tell me about how it’s only democracy if your preferred candidate is within striking distance of victory.
Nope that’s not what I said either.
Nope that’s not what I said either.
If you must vote and vote for the “correct” party then you don’t have a democracy.
Considering that the discussion was not in the context of Aussie-style forced voting, nor legally restricted election choices, but in that voting for anyone other than the Dems in this election was the action of a total cretin, there’s no other realistic interpretation of your words unless we’re presuming that you spoke without any connection to the matter at hand, and were just spewing out random thoughts with no relevance to any context in this post or comment thread.
The statement stands on it’s own. If you must vote for a party then you don’t have a democracy. Even if the ruling class is benevolent and lets you believe you have a choice, it’s still not a democracy.
The statement stands on it’s own. If you must vote for a party then you don’t have a democracy.
I’m sorry, were we rounding up people with our Dem paramilitaries and forcing them into the Voting Fields™?
“The statement stands on its own”; no, it’s dribble that you refuse to assign any meaning to, because that would mean having a position that could be addressed instead of vagueposting.
1 ) public ignorance is a widespread social force not a personal character fault that happens to individually affect the majority of the population.
2 ) This attitude of moral contempt is actively repellent to the people we need to reach out to, who do not subscribe to your premise. A lot of people don’t think they are fascists - they are wrong, but they’ll still look at you funny unless you can do a damn good job of making the argument. The Dems couldn’t, the media couldn’t, and nobody is watching it anyway. WE have to do it. Make better arguments and reach out to people instead of circlejerking and making our opponents arguments for them.
A over third of eligible voters did not vote.
The couch was a more viable competitor than either candidate.
There was more than could have been done to represent voters’ interests.
However fault is not binary. There’s plenty of people and even events that take some portion of the blame.
