So the TL:DW version seems to be that honey changes or adds an affiliate link to get a commission on the sale. Similar programs like Capital One Shopping probably do the same thing.
Honestly, I don’t give a shit. I hate affiliate links no matter who gets them. They are the real scam.
Sounds link the real solution is to use it to identify potential coupon codes. Then clear cookies, resign in, and enter the code yourself. But it’s not like that yields a cheaper price, so I’m not even sure I care.
not a tldw
I’m torn on affiliate links. I’ve worked with people in sales before and it’s usually scammy unless the contract is done right (flat rate commission, no bonuses for selling “certain” items). I’ve seen really hard working and informative workers that are actually impossible to replace because of the knowledge of products and handling the customers needs without flair or extra cost. Will inform them of cheaper methods like how easy it is to purchase and install a cable versus paying someone $100 just to plug something in and flip a switch basically.
In those instances, I think the affiliate/commission is warranted. Same with some awesome youtube channels I’ve ran across where they test the shit out of several products in a category (Torque Test Channel is a good one). If I need the product and I’m buying it off their recommendation I will gladly use their affiliate link if I think about it beforehand.
Now, there are some channels that I’ve just taken the affiliate link to be basically a form of sponsorship and promotion. Sadly a lot of construction/trade channels end up falling into this eventually. Matt Risinger is probably one of the worse ones, but even lower end guys like The Stud Pack just become a “new product showcase” channel instead of DIY or instructional videos.
Matt Risinger’s channel was pretty good when he first started but the last few I’ve watched seem like nothing but commercials. I haven’t watched his stuff in a while so I gave it a shot on a recent video and remembered why I stopped watching.
I’m starting to think they put something toxic in the Zip System, or at least it’s like a gateway for corporate sponsorship cocaine. Once they start jerking themselves off talking about how great Zip is, it usually goes downhill from there (not bashing zip, just is always funny). I just recently gave up on him so it was interesting to see the decline. There would be a really great informative video, then several just commercialized crap.
The sad part is if any of these products are scammy, we probably won’t find out about it publicly. The company product will just slowly fade from existence, maybe a report done by a safety or efficiency board that will call it out and be dropped from code. There’s been plenty of building products that don’t hold up to their specs when scrutinized.
I work in telecom. Currently I’m working with the group that pre-wires large apartment complexes. When we first started doing this everyone was all about the Zip systems. I’ve noticed in the last 18 months they’re all back to normal OSB and house wrap. And it’s like “Zip- meh”. It was so hyped 6 years aggo. Risinger was one of the firat I swe hyping Zip and like you said its only gotten worse.
Reductive take that doesn’t really summarize
- Change affiliate tokens to their own
- Use clickbait and dark patterns to hide changing the tokens
- Have deals with vendors so they can set the max discount percentage
- Steal unknown discount codes from people entering them (Allegedly. I read it will be revealed in part 2 of that video)
Thank you for saying this. I totally agree with your process, and I’d do the very same every time, but something is wrong in an intangible way that makes me feel bad about doing it.
Is that it? Is the fact that the choice is between two entities I’ll never know or even recognize again, that offends my morals but satisfies my ethics? And, since Honey is doing something for me in giving me this code, should that not make me want to help them in return?
I’m not saying I’ve figured this out so much as saying thanks for enabling me.
I do recommend watching the video, it’s a lot more egregious than you might think.
Say that you’re watching an LTT video, and they say that they have a sponsored affiliate link in the description for a product you want to buy.
By clicking that link, you’re basically saying “Thanks, LTT! I hope you get commission off this sale for me, for bringing it to my attention”. Otherwise, you could just go to the site directly, and bring up the product without any affiliate link backs.
So you’ve click on the link, your browser opens up and takes you to the store page with an LTT affiliate link cookie set.
ANY interaction with the Honey pop-up (even clicking ‘Got It!’ when it says that there are no coupons available) will overwrite the cookie to PayPal (Honey’s parent company).
Additionally, Honey works in conjunction with stores to only show certain permitted coupons, even if end users submit better ones. e.g. it might only show HONEY5 for a 5% discount, while there might be a valid BLACKFRIDAY20 coupon code available that aggregation sites show.
There’s also meant to be a Part 2 to this coming out soon, I believe? So there’s probably even more to this story than we know so far.
From the preview, I’m guessing honey is shaking down retailers. If someone hasn’t partnered with them then they’ll do what’s on the tin, apply the best coupon available. They tell the retailers they’ll stop if they agree to a partnership.
That’s just one issue, there’s also the fact that they partner with stores to give worse coupons than are actually available, by letting them get affiliate money when doing so. And then advertising that they ALWAYS give you the best codes, while getting paid by stores not to do so…
Theres also another video coming up with stores that have been screwed over by Honey getting hold of codes that are supposed to be hidden/limited. (though that’s honestly on the store, make your limited coupons actually limited to avoid this…) But he only teased this, there might be something wkse/more.
Slightly scummy on the first front, but then again, if I knew the better codes, I’d just use them rather than use a browser extension.
On the second front, that’s more the fault of companies not validating exclusive codes.
Sure but when you advertise we well find you the best price available and you don’t cause the company paid you to give this lower coupon it is fraud.
He mentions in the video that they stopped advertising that when the BBB brought it up with them.
I think for this story, the timeline is paramount. What Honey used to be compared to what it became are worlds apart. Claims they made when they were just a coupon aggregator should be considered in a different light than claims once they started partnering with vendors
In the entire time I used Honey, I never once got a valid coupon code for literally anything. Pretty sure they scraped a ton of my browsing data though.
Are you aware that there are other chrome extensions that offer more coupons for a ton of online stores? Dontpayfull Automatic Coupons or Retailmenot always have plenty of coupons available. I don’t understand why everyone is stuck on Honey, which has been of very low quality in recent years.
I need to check this out, sounds pretty interesting to me. I never tried Honey because it seemed way too shady!
For how long, I wonder:
Saw reCAPTCHA on a discount code box the other day - one click per each code tried
Same here. Newer found a single coupon for me. I uninstalled it a few months ago, not because I thought it was sketchy, but because I figured it must be better at finding discounts for things that I don’t shop for online, like shoes and pizzas or something.
I don’t shop for online, like shoes and pizzas
How do you shop for pizza not-online? Bro still going with pizzas brochures? Respect bro. If you top that off ny ordering by landline, it’d be perfect.
But yeah I had similar thoughts on Honey, never installed and now I think I definitely won’t. Thx 4 i Lemmy
Why would you need to order pizza online? Not everyone wants to pay fees for the “convenience” of paying more for the food and having to type in my credit card info myself. You call them up, you get a better price, and you pay when you get there.
Why would you need to ordering pizza, period?
Food ordering apps aren’t convenient as fuck and I dare you to argued against that.
If you live in a bigger city and have trusty restaurant’s with trusty service, yeah, call em. I do for two of my trusty places, but theyre rather far and expensive from where I now live. And the places around here change like everyone year or two. So yeah.
Most people use apps.
Food ordering apps aren’t convenient as fuck
I agree. Nothing convenient about overpaying to entrust your food to underpaid, unvetted delivery workers
God I hate this new phone the screen is just the tiniest bit too small and I keep hitting the left most suggestion instead of the middle one, turning ares into aren’ts and woulds into wouldn’ts.
I’m sure you know what I meant.
Pretending they aren’t massively popular exactly because they make the whole thing easier and more comfortable (browsing menus you know are up to date, being able to specify allergies as much as you want, etc) would be incredibly naive.
Is capitalism using it aa a possibility to exploit even more? Yes. Does that suck balls? Yes. But does is the tech itself shit? No.
Capitalism enshittifies everything. Automation isn’t cursed at because the current economic system mean that the working classes will get less, and that is a bad thing. The technology isn’t. So the tech isn’t the issue. Capitalism is.
I use them only when it’s free (ie someone else is paying for it). I hate them so much. They are not more convenient, they increase the price by 100% and they actively hurt people and small businesses.
browsing menus you know are up to date
A quick web search shows plenty of anecdotes to the contrary.
being able to specify allergies as much as you want
And you trust that?? If I had a serious food allergy I would absolutely NOT trust that a food delivery service would communicate those effectively given how much they push restaurants around, up to and including adding restaurants without their knowledge or consent.
I suppose in the strictest sense, sure, these apps are convenient, but you sure are paying a lot for it, and some restaurants charge extra for it on top of the fees, and the delivery folks aren’t getting a fair cut of the fees. Most of the fees go to big tech.
That’s absurd
Technically isn’t telling anybody anything “stealing”? You’re transmitting a copy of the information and whoever created it gets nothing.
I’m waiting for the installment to tell me about what personal Data they’re scrapping, and then judge whether or not it negatively affects me. So far the first video in the series details how Honey is screwing creators out of affiliate commissions, which is interesting, but not something I give all that much of a shit about. The coupon stuff is more interesting, but it’s not like I’m wading through the popup nightmare of coupon sites to scour the absolute best coupon for any given thing on any given day. Sometime if it’s a high dig item i’ll look around. The Honey plugin shows me the price history of any given item (on sites it works on) over a 6 month period of time, which informs me as to whether or not there are large downward dips on something I might end up waiting for a sale, which by looking at history, could be reoccuring regularly. Lot’s of work went into this vid series, and I’m looking foward to the next one, but so far, nothing to get me to unistall Honey.
I, too, love to support companies that I know fuck people over after they sign contracts. If I find out they’re harvesting my data, I’ll just love them even more. That’s The Art Of The Deal, baby!!
The video shows how Honey doesn’t actually get you the best deals, with ‘approved’ discounts. I don’t care about affiliate links either, but I certainly don’t want to be making Paypal so much money for no reason.
Aside from a selfish take, you clearly didn’t pay attention to the video if you think honey is giving you the best deal. It literally has a segment on this.
You mean a free extension that claims to give me discounts seemingly out of the goodness of their hearts that also has access to every website I go to in the browser where it is installed is not exactly on the level? I’m shocked…well…not that shocked.
I tried it in a Firefox container once, while shopping for Xmas gifts. Not only did it want access to absolutely everything, none of the things I was looking to buy got any meaningful discount from it. Surely that would make one question how and why this thing is even still running, unless you don’t ask many questions.
People add extensions and then forget about them immediately, those are the true whales for these companies
Yeah the one that somehow has the money to get the biggest influencers to advertise them.
I can’t believe that something too good to be true was too good to be true!
If you dont know how a business makes money, chances are its some shady stuff
Providing coupons on stuff for free, with zero ads? Thats pretty weird. Being Bought by PayPal for 4 BILLION dollars?!?!? There has to be some real sketchy shit.
While I agree with you, I think we should be careful about allowing the ignorant to be punished. It’s unreasonable for a non-tech-savvy person to be aware of all the ways a company can screw you. If they’re skeptical of everything, they can’t use anything
I wonder what websites think of this toolbar stealing affiliate links from people doing all the work of promoting their prices. I wonder if Honey goes even further and turns vanilla purchases into affiliate purchases, actively stealing actual money from the site. If I were NewEgg or whoever else Honey has created affiliate links with, I think I’d be banning their affiliate account right now, or throwing in some captchas so their link theft doesn’t work any more.
Was it not obvious that the extension was doing that and scraping your browser data?
Scraping data yes Scraping affiliate links? No
It’s kind of ridiculous how long it has taken for people to realise that this is happening… where did people think that their referrals had gone after they cratered?
Thats where I’m at, I thought it was fairly obvious it was doing this and theres a hundred extensions like this. Are real people surprised this is how it works?
People realised years ago but didn’t really care much. End users generally don’t care since it doesn’t directly impact them, and “influencers” will often take a sponsorship deal without thoroughly researching the product or service being advertised, and probably just figured that people were buying less stuff due to the economy or whatever.
The tech-savvy people that realised what’s happening tend to either avoid afilliate links, or use a cash back service (TopCashback, Rakuten, etc) that requires you to use their affiliate link.
It’s not just Honey doing this. Practically all the major coupon sites do it too.
Do people not immediately google “How does X make money” or is that just me?
I didn’t Google it. I just figured, if it found me a 10% discount, the vendor would also send Honey some % of what I paid for the product.
No need to do even that. If a simple piece of software becomes a company, it’s 99% a scam.
I’m that cynical i just avoid anything being shilled by a YouTuber. I assume if they’re pushing it this hard it must be nefarious in some way and I spend no more time thinking about it.
I will drop my subs for channels that shill this stuff though once it becomes evident it’s shady.
The problem is that a lot of these startups don’t make money. The enshittification comes later, first stage is just burning through VC cash to establish market share.
It is about Honey hijacking the referrals, which wasn’t known until a youtuber made a video about it (or at least not widely known)
Yes, they’ve been doing this since even before PayPal bought them. This is how they’ve always made money.
This is why I don’t trust Brave Browser. They did this in the past. Well, I don’t know if they replaced referrals but they added them when they weren’t there.
I have, for some businesses I’ve wondered about. For example, I use the virtual cycling platform Zwift, which charges a monthly or annual fee to use. The biggest competitor, Rouvy, also charges a fee. Makes sense, it takes money to develop these things, buy and maintain servers, etc. The income and expenses are obvious. (Zwift does offer bike frames and wheels from real world brands; I assume the brands paid something to be included.)
Enter MyWhoosh. Free to use, so the income side is unclear. From some searching, they claim they’ll generate revenue via ads - but I doubt that would generate enough to support the platform.
The company is based out of Abu Dhabi, so I assume it’s really sportswashing - they’re just dumping a bunch of money into it and not really caring that it isn’t making money (at least for now).
I’m sticking with Zwift (in part because I have it working under Linux and Wine).
I feel like I’ve searched it up for honey, but the search results said the same thing as the YouTubers shilling it. Didn’t download it anyway because of how many people were advertising it. Anyone who uses that much money to advertise can’t be getting their money in a reasonable manner.
They do, but then a trusted “insider” youtuber or podcaster who they have a years long parasocial relationship with “signs off” on the product and the person says to themselves, “X person has integrity and they are very smart, they wouldn’t put their name on Y unless they did a lot of homework, so I don’t have to.”
And life is difficult, complicated and overwhelming, so you can’t really blame “normal” folks for putting the same faith they’d put into their tech saavy nephew into these personalities. The influencers should pause though and accept that if they can’t enthusiastically describe the reason a thing is actually legitimate, they should refrain from endorsing it or accept part of the blame for misleading people.
Fuck PayPal and its related entities and all executives past, present and future. And I guess fuck you too now, Will Ferrell - you cosigned Mel Gibson in whatever the fuck that daddy movie series was and now you’re the face of these people? The “PayPal mafia” (cringe) literally just bought the US election. I know you need to bankroll a lot of family trips to Sweden, but you h ave too much obviously dirty money now, Will. Hard to chuckle at your comedies now, and that’s a bummer.
You don’t seem like you’re ok.
Cybertruck breakdown?
Brian Dunning (Skeptoid podcast) went to prison for wire fraud for doing a similar stunt with EBay. Not sure what makes this any different.
What makes it different is that it was perpetrated by Paypal, so nobody will see any consequences whatsoever.
You act like PayPal and eBay aren’t in a codependent relationship. Has that changed? I mean I see PayPal as an option everywhere but I don’t use it because giving money to Paypal is like giving money to ticketmaster.
If anything, I imagine eBay is more dependent on PayPal, than vice versa
I knew that shit was up to no good. I never install anything like that. I assumed it would be sniping on me, I’m sure it does that too.
Rent-seeking middlemen. This is the pinnacle of capitalism. Taking revenue while providing nothing is maximum efficiency. You can tell because it raises prices invisibly for everyone.
This is just a baby version of how credit card companies have placed a 1%-5% sales tax on the global economy. You might say “at least the CC companies provide a service”, but that tax get’s added no matter if your using a CC or not.
How does the tax get added if you don’t use a credit card?
Credit card fees get baked into the general price and are averaged between all the accepted cards. Hence cash transactions and lower-fee cards (debit, credit with less benefits) end up paying more of the share of the higher-fee cards.
It’s well explained in the following video: https://youtu.be/OceYCEexDqQ
When you get a credit card machine you sign an agreement saying something like transactions under X amount we, the credit card network company, will charge you 50c or any transactions over X amount we will charge your 1.5%.
Now as a business owner you raise prices 1.5% to cover this fee. If someone pays in cash, the extra 1.5% goes to you, if the customer pays with a card, the 1.5% goes to the card network .
Because enough people use credit cards that businesses have felt compelled to raise prices across the board to compensate.
In Italy it’s illegal to raise the price if you are using a credit card. The price needs to be the same no matter the payment method
The same price must be charged for products purchased with credit card or cash. Otherwise the card provider will withdraw their service from the retailer. So the credit card margin is added to every price.
card provider will withdraw
Dubious, as I regularly see gas stations with separate cash vs card prices. I’ve seen small businesses offer discounts for cash, too. And it’s not like visa is going to stop processing cards because walmart started offering cash prices. It’s just scare tactics. And for big companies, people who pay in cash offer bigger profit margins, so it’s not like they are incentivized to help the situation.
Actually true, but outdated. There was a massive decade long $30b legal fight that eliminated credit card network’s “anti-steering” provisions. Those were contractual terms that retailers signed that prohibited them from offering different prices for cash and card. Some retailers have responded by offering different prices, or otherwise adding a processing fee to card transactions as a result of that settlement.
And the vast majority did nothing.
Obviously it varies from business to business. Some may not want the hassle, some may see consumer sentiment against fees and not feel it’s worth the impact. Some are content to merely leave prices 3% (or more) higher.
Ultimately, very few businesses price things based on their costs…instead they price based on what they think people are willing to pay, or what the market will bear.
It’s also worth considering, at the scales of many of these businesses, accepting and handling cash is very much not a free option. If I’m a supermarket chain, I pay a card company a few percent and maintain my payment terminals and I magically get my income deposited daily directly in my preferred bank account. I’ve got some risk with stolen cards and chargebacks, but the big Chip Card and Mobile Wallet rollouts have dramatically limited my exposure to that liability.
With cash I have a substantial cost to handle, collect, count, and deposit at each location. I have concerns about counting accuracy, interval and external theft, counterfeit currency, purchasing change from my local bank (which typically has a fee assessed for businesses), etc.
Cause they can’t charge more for CC purchases so they raise the prices for everyone.
Why am I entirely not surprised that LMG knew what the fuck was going on, and didnt say a fuckin thing about it.
Made more public comments over legitimate criticism about his “just trust me, bro” warranty, than about honey being a out and out scam.
Never watched the channel, but I would guess that being tech-themed makes it a worse look that they promoted it for so long before catching the issue, so they were worried it would cast doubt on all other endorsements and tank the value of advertising with them.
I think coming out and pointing out what honey did would probably be the least damaging thing they’ve done in the past few years.
because holy fuck have they had some whoppers.
