Someone was telling you this shit was going to happen and there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it. You decided compromise was for losers and are now reaping the rewards of your ill informed, short sighted decision. Why are you whining so much, you got exactly what you were told you would get.
So did you! You got exactly what we told you was going to happen, yet its our fault it happened. Look at this post! This whining is on your side my dude. I just can’t believe you fools didn’t stop with the brow beating after such a catastrophic loss. Couldn’t do one fraction of a second of self reflection. I was not telling people not to vote for the democrat, but I didn’t hide my real feelings either.
A movement to withhold votes against Democrats has been building for years. the uncommitted movement is ideologically closer to liberal democrats than so called tankies, but Dems threw them under the bus, called them Putin influenced for protesting against a genocide in the only way they knew how. I was fighting for Palestinian liberation in different ways, I don’t really get too involved in electoral politics though I’m active politically. Never was I whining. God what projection.
It really demonstrates the two tendencies of liberalism: good conscientious people who are cool and hate injustice, vs. bloodless defenders of private capital who make noises like they care about justice so they can take power and broker influence.
Get a grip, do some actual criticism of your movement, do better for christs sakes. There wouldn’t be nearly as many communists and anarchists becoming radicalized if democrats were even a little effective. They are the only force that has the power to oppose the fascists and criminals in charge of the republicans. and they blew it, time and time again. Stop blaming the people, the fucking lemmy posters for Christ sakes, and start looking at your party,and namely where they get their funding.
this may require you to read and process information instead of just repeating what some 68 year old millionaire said. Which may take some growth on your part, so maybe hydrate and stretch a little first.
No I’m saying that material reality affects peoples views more than your version where people are dumb babies; and acknowledging that, let alone standing next to us in struggle could have carried Democrats to victory, instead they abandoned even the semblance of ethics and morals other than “Cheeto bad.” Some people, and you may struggle with this because of an apparent lack of empathy or theory of mind, although maybe not, are not able to cash in their ethics and morals for a pat on the back and literally nothing else, from the same people who are resolved to continue the genocide. Maybe you can, but others have more character and compunction.
Hopefully someday you have experiences that stimulate growth as a person.
And like I’m not particularly partial to taking this view of you as some kind of vampire bereft of all reason and conscience. But when you do it to others, don’t get grumpy when someone calls you out on it. If you don’t like the way it feels, and if you think its possible that you might take a contrary position to me because of our roles on either side of this discourse, then think about how when you do it, it affects others.
Fuck me for thinking you should be better than that!
My question is answered by your question: did you and the democrats stand with the Palestinians or did you stand with Israel?
The organization you are defending with your bad faith questioning is one where it is impossible to stand with ones own principles against genocide. Democrats could not convincingly demonstrate that they would stand by Palestinians and end this genocide, even after the UN and an avalanche of international bodies, legally and scientifically proved that it was indeed a genocide that was occurring. Even then, there was just an uncomfortable shifting of feet as democrats who had been receiving campaign contributions on the order of millions of dollars over decades, were forced to either stand against that money or genocide.
They chose money, and the people who stood against the fascist oppression of the Palestinians, chose to stay home.
Because you know what didn’t work? Standing with Israel when the time came to support Palestine, and then expecting people to be guilt tripped into turning out to vote for Democrats. To be clear, i never once advocated for staying home on election day, but at least I was able to surmise it by looking at the situation.
You act like I’m putting on an air of intellectual superiority, but my standards for consciousness of the situation are actually quite low. I would ask that someone would learn about and think about the situation leading up to a particular event, which you seem to want to ignore; and I ask that you have a measure of empathy. Your inability to demonstrate either should not be read as my judgement of you, but your own guilty judgement of your own fucked up reasoning that you want to put on to me. Save it for your therapist.
No, what they are saying is the Dem’s consistent refusal to listen to their voters, and instead thinking that voters “owe” their votes to the dems, is what got Trump elected.
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
If you didn’t vote in protest; or voted third party to send a message to the democrats, then you get to take the blame for trump. That is how a logical conclusion is made.
If you chose not to eat chicken because you don’t like it, and your only other option is to eat pasta, and you don’t like that either-
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
Because I don’t blame individual voters, for the decisions of the candidate running?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
So, no fault goes to the candidates? At all?
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Isn’t it the fault of the person who only provided the food, and only giving the choice between shit sandwich and diarrhea soup?
If voters protest voting had an effect, doesn’t that mean the blame lies with the candidate who wholly ignored the voters? Because they ignored the voters during the election, its fair to say they would be ignored after the election.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
Yes, even a child should be able to make the distinction of genocide being evil, regardless of the purported justification.
And, here’s a spoiler: I voted for Harris! Yes, it was a very selfish decision on my part, because I have direct interactions daily with, well, most of all the groups that were being impacted under Biden, and now under Trump. At best, I was hoping for 4 more years of radicalizing people.
But guess what? I still am working to radicalize people.
No one said the candidate or the party takes no blame. That’s foolish to even think to assume.
But 90 million people didn’t vote. It’s safe to say that several million of those were single issue protesters. And then the over 3 million third party voters?
I’m not defending the party, the movement, the history, the people or their choices. I’m pointing out that no one wanted to hold their nose to vote and now we’re all swimming in shit.
Downvote me all you want. No amount of political theory will make the math go away. Every single person who decided to not vote, or to vote for catharsis, was a helping hand pushing Trump’s ass into the oval office.
Yes, the Democrats pissed you off, yes you should have still voted for them.
Its a hell of a situation we are in, but abstracting this one political act away from the movement, the people, their choices, the history behind it all, is the only reason you are able to look at the situation in such a limited way.
I believe you, that you want to get your intentions or beliefs untangled from whatever schemes political and economic elites are cooking. It is a great tragedy that people didn’t vote to keep Trump out. But if you want your individual beliefs to stand on their own and hold water on their own, then you have to extend the same courtesy to conscientious uncommitted voters.
For months people told me I was a bot for daring to suggest Biden was too old to run. Then that view was vindicated too late, and when progressives wanted to get in line behind Kamala, it was made pretty clear that other than uncomfortable noises and “concerns” about the genocide, money and weapons were still going to flow. Do you understand that this lesser evil messaging was doomed to fail? millions of voices on the left who are in no way hoping for another trump term were warning exactly this, and were silenced, not to mention beaten, arrested, kicked out of school or worse for daring to put their bodies on the line for Palestinians?
Maybe ask yourself why the most progressive stripe of voters withheld their vote, while millions of others just didn’t think, maybe wrongly, that it would affect them either way. Was there a conspiracy by Russia and other countries? I mean its been established, I think, that a great deal of this goes on. So let me ask you: in this situation, where democracy is being attacked from without and within, night and day by well funded and well organized forces, do you think that a mere vote every 4 years or so is enough to actually prevent the degeneration of a democracy? Or might it take quite a bit more effort? Second question: have the democrats proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth that vote, so that the critical mass of rational and conscientious people in this country would not have grounds to doubt their commitment to restoring democracy and overcoming fascism?
My answer to both questions is no. This does not make me naive or idiotic, but I’m afraid that is how I am made to feel, made to seem, by the mainstream of the Democratic party. And so were hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of other Americans whose conscience would not allow a vote for genocide.
The oppression of the Palestinian people didn’t begin on oct7, let’s not pretend that Democrats werent culpable before and after. Therefore there is good reason to doubt the dems would have influenced any meaningful change in the conflict
The only political act that was being asked of the millions who didn’t vote was to vote. That’s the only political act that matters in this contact. It’s the lowest possible bar in a democracy. Show up, check a box. I get that it sucks, but this, what we have now, is going to be so much worse.
Just to sum up my point: The system is rigged hard against any kind of progressivism. The left might be able to influence a Democrat, it absolutely will not influence a Republican, and a third party has absolutely zero chance of getting elected.
If third parties want clout, they have to build it from the ground up, and that means money in a capitalist system. Where’s all the third party money that’s going to help defeat the established parties? It doesn’t exist.
Again, I’m not celebrating his reality, I’m only pointing out that it’s always been that way and opting out of having a voice isn’t going to do shit to change it.
Not voting is hurting the people we care about, all for the sake of feeling better about yourself.
A system that restrict democracy to checking a box every 4 years while silencing peaceful opposition calling for peace, is not a democracy it is tyranny. You won’t be able to sell tyranny to me as democracy. And every cycle that the deep political corruption at the heart of the Democrats exposes itself for what it is, more and more people see it for what it is.
They didn’t create these contradictions, neither did you and neither did I. But many people are responsible and benefit directly from the carnage. And your plan to oppose them is to stay dumb and stand in line every 4 years.
I said it elsewhere, but it just shows the divide in the Democrats between the progressives and the establishment. The fact that you’ve resigned to a single unconscionable viewpoint doesn’t mean that other people are stupid for going the opposite way. The Palestinian people have been the victims of liberal pragmatism for 75 years. I know you want to collapse all morality and ethics into a single moment when a ballot is cast, but seriously don’t you think that view is somewhat convenient for the establishment? Is this the society you want to take part in and participate in?
No its not, you dread to do it but once every 2-4 years as a matter of duty. But people who don’t subscribe to your sense of moral duty, no different than the enemy right? Cant you see how self defeating it all is?
Refusing to participate grants you zero benefit, and makes it easier for the system to continue.
This has nothing to do with political viewpoints, this is math. There’s no way in hell you’re going to tear it down from the outside so what’s the plan? Sit there and feel smug that you did nothing while everyone suffers?
Checking the box is the bare minimum, and you couldn’t even do that, because it made you feel icky.
Your protest vote, or non vote (same thing), holds negative value for the people of Palestine.
As I said elsewhere, I did vote I have voted and I will continue to vote. So nice strawman. I never discouraged people from voting, but I understand why people didnt. I’m against the browbeating of people for voting their conscience.
Some people don’t know what it means to stand up for what they believe in, since their beliefs appear to be whatever will opportunistically win. Then they condescendingly chide others for risking their own bodies, for having strong beliefs. Those people will betray in the first opportunity, because they only perceive others as a means to get what they themselves want. So frankly, you can shove your pragmatism. Your pragmatism didn’t defeat Trump either, but at least I don’t stand with child murderers and rapists and worse.
I reject your shallow, faulty reasoning.
Please leave me alone.
Someone was telling you this shit was going to happen and there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it. You decided compromise was for losers and are now reaping the rewards of your ill informed, short sighted decision. Why are you whining so much, you got exactly what you were told you would get.
State level electoral reform so people can vote outside the two party system without a spoiler effect
Preventing what? A genocide?
Harris was all on board with it.
Well never know, she’s not the president.
Trump, the guy you enabled, however, Is. And he’s a fucking nightmare.
He wants to displace every Palestinian by force and hand their land to Israel.
Is that what you non-voted for? Take a plane to the Gaza Strip and preach that on a corner, see how well that works out for you.
I voted for Harris, even though I didn’t want to.
End result, for Palestinians are the same, regardless, though. She supported a genocide of them.
Sure buddy, of course you did.
So did you! You got exactly what we told you was going to happen, yet its our fault it happened. Look at this post! This whining is on your side my dude. I just can’t believe you fools didn’t stop with the brow beating after such a catastrophic loss. Couldn’t do one fraction of a second of self reflection. I was not telling people not to vote for the democrat, but I didn’t hide my real feelings either.
A movement to withhold votes against Democrats has been building for years. the uncommitted movement is ideologically closer to liberal democrats than so called tankies, but Dems threw them under the bus, called them Putin influenced for protesting against a genocide in the only way they knew how. I was fighting for Palestinian liberation in different ways, I don’t really get too involved in electoral politics though I’m active politically. Never was I whining. God what projection.
It really demonstrates the two tendencies of liberalism: good conscientious people who are cool and hate injustice, vs. bloodless defenders of private capital who make noises like they care about justice so they can take power and broker influence.
Get a grip, do some actual criticism of your movement, do better for christs sakes. There wouldn’t be nearly as many communists and anarchists becoming radicalized if democrats were even a little effective. They are the only force that has the power to oppose the fascists and criminals in charge of the republicans. and they blew it, time and time again. Stop blaming the people, the fucking lemmy posters for Christ sakes, and start looking at your party,and namely where they get their funding.
this may require you to read and process information instead of just repeating what some 68 year old millionaire said. Which may take some growth on your part, so maybe hydrate and stretch a little first.
So… you’re actually saying that your protest successfully got trump elected- in defense of someone accusing you of helping to get trump elected….
No I’m saying that material reality affects peoples views more than your version where people are dumb babies; and acknowledging that, let alone standing next to us in struggle could have carried Democrats to victory, instead they abandoned even the semblance of ethics and morals other than “Cheeto bad.” Some people, and you may struggle with this because of an apparent lack of empathy or theory of mind, although maybe not, are not able to cash in their ethics and morals for a pat on the back and literally nothing else, from the same people who are resolved to continue the genocide. Maybe you can, but others have more character and compunction.
Hopefully someday you have experiences that stimulate growth as a person.
And like I’m not particularly partial to taking this view of you as some kind of vampire bereft of all reason and conscience. But when you do it to others, don’t get grumpy when someone calls you out on it. If you don’t like the way it feels, and if you think its possible that you might take a contrary position to me because of our roles on either side of this discourse, then think about how when you do it, it affects others.
Fuck me for thinking you should be better than that!
So… I’m having difficulty understanding because of your obvious intellectual superiority, but…
I’m going to need a simple answer here:
Did your protest work, or not?
Because if it did, then it would seem to me- in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
But if it didn’t, then it would seem to be, also in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
Be sure to use small words so that my brain can understand.
My question is answered by your question: did you and the democrats stand with the Palestinians or did you stand with Israel?
The organization you are defending with your bad faith questioning is one where it is impossible to stand with ones own principles against genocide. Democrats could not convincingly demonstrate that they would stand by Palestinians and end this genocide, even after the UN and an avalanche of international bodies, legally and scientifically proved that it was indeed a genocide that was occurring. Even then, there was just an uncomfortable shifting of feet as democrats who had been receiving campaign contributions on the order of millions of dollars over decades, were forced to either stand against that money or genocide.
They chose money, and the people who stood against the fascist oppression of the Palestinians, chose to stay home.
Because you know what didn’t work? Standing with Israel when the time came to support Palestine, and then expecting people to be guilt tripped into turning out to vote for Democrats. To be clear, i never once advocated for staying home on election day, but at least I was able to surmise it by looking at the situation.
You act like I’m putting on an air of intellectual superiority, but my standards for consciousness of the situation are actually quite low. I would ask that someone would learn about and think about the situation leading up to a particular event, which you seem to want to ignore; and I ask that you have a measure of empathy. Your inability to demonstrate either should not be read as my judgement of you, but your own guilty judgement of your own fucked up reasoning that you want to put on to me. Save it for your therapist.
As expected, walls of text without answering a simple yes or no question.
Did you answer any of my questions? No, as expected. What incredible hypocrisy
I’ve argued with hundreds of versions of you. I know this game. I’m not answering shit to until you answer what was asked of you first.
Did non-voting in protest/third party protest votes affect the election, yes- or no?
No, what they are saying is the Dem’s consistent refusal to listen to their voters, and instead thinking that voters “owe” their votes to the dems, is what got Trump elected.
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
If you didn’t vote in protest; or voted third party to send a message to the democrats, then you get to take the blame for trump. That is how a logical conclusion is made.
If you chose not to eat chicken because you don’t like it, and your only other option is to eat pasta, and you don’t like that either-
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
You get stubborn ignorance.
Because I don’t blame individual voters, for the decisions of the candidate running?
So, no fault goes to the candidates? At all?
Isn’t it the fault of the person who only provided the food, and only giving the choice between shit sandwich and diarrhea soup?
If voters protest voting had an effect, doesn’t that mean the blame lies with the candidate who wholly ignored the voters? Because they ignored the voters during the election, its fair to say they would be ignored after the election.
Yes, even a child should be able to make the distinction of genocide being evil, regardless of the purported justification.
And, here’s a spoiler: I voted for Harris! Yes, it was a very selfish decision on my part, because I have direct interactions daily with, well, most of all the groups that were being impacted under Biden, and now under Trump. At best, I was hoping for 4 more years of radicalizing people.
But guess what? I still am working to radicalize people.
No one said the candidate or the party takes no blame. That’s foolish to even think to assume.
But 90 million people didn’t vote. It’s safe to say that several million of those were single issue protesters. And then the over 3 million third party voters?
Yeah…
It’s your fault you’re hungry.
I’m not defending the party, the movement, the history, the people or their choices. I’m pointing out that no one wanted to hold their nose to vote and now we’re all swimming in shit.
Downvote me all you want. No amount of political theory will make the math go away. Every single person who decided to not vote, or to vote for catharsis, was a helping hand pushing Trump’s ass into the oval office.
Yes, the Democrats pissed you off, yes you should have still voted for them.
Its a hell of a situation we are in, but abstracting this one political act away from the movement, the people, their choices, the history behind it all, is the only reason you are able to look at the situation in such a limited way.
I believe you, that you want to get your intentions or beliefs untangled from whatever schemes political and economic elites are cooking. It is a great tragedy that people didn’t vote to keep Trump out. But if you want your individual beliefs to stand on their own and hold water on their own, then you have to extend the same courtesy to conscientious uncommitted voters.
For months people told me I was a bot for daring to suggest Biden was too old to run. Then that view was vindicated too late, and when progressives wanted to get in line behind Kamala, it was made pretty clear that other than uncomfortable noises and “concerns” about the genocide, money and weapons were still going to flow. Do you understand that this lesser evil messaging was doomed to fail? millions of voices on the left who are in no way hoping for another trump term were warning exactly this, and were silenced, not to mention beaten, arrested, kicked out of school or worse for daring to put their bodies on the line for Palestinians?
Maybe ask yourself why the most progressive stripe of voters withheld their vote, while millions of others just didn’t think, maybe wrongly, that it would affect them either way. Was there a conspiracy by Russia and other countries? I mean its been established, I think, that a great deal of this goes on. So let me ask you: in this situation, where democracy is being attacked from without and within, night and day by well funded and well organized forces, do you think that a mere vote every 4 years or so is enough to actually prevent the degeneration of a democracy? Or might it take quite a bit more effort? Second question: have the democrats proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth that vote, so that the critical mass of rational and conscientious people in this country would not have grounds to doubt their commitment to restoring democracy and overcoming fascism?
My answer to both questions is no. This does not make me naive or idiotic, but I’m afraid that is how I am made to feel, made to seem, by the mainstream of the Democratic party. And so were hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of other Americans whose conscience would not allow a vote for genocide.
The oppression of the Palestinian people didn’t begin on oct7, let’s not pretend that Democrats werent culpable before and after. Therefore there is good reason to doubt the dems would have influenced any meaningful change in the conflict
The only political act that was being asked of the millions who didn’t vote was to vote. That’s the only political act that matters in this contact. It’s the lowest possible bar in a democracy. Show up, check a box. I get that it sucks, but this, what we have now, is going to be so much worse.
Just to sum up my point: The system is rigged hard against any kind of progressivism. The left might be able to influence a Democrat, it absolutely will not influence a Republican, and a third party has absolutely zero chance of getting elected.
If third parties want clout, they have to build it from the ground up, and that means money in a capitalist system. Where’s all the third party money that’s going to help defeat the established parties? It doesn’t exist.
Again, I’m not celebrating his reality, I’m only pointing out that it’s always been that way and opting out of having a voice isn’t going to do shit to change it.
Not voting is hurting the people we care about, all for the sake of feeling better about yourself.
A system that restrict democracy to checking a box every 4 years while silencing peaceful opposition calling for peace, is not a democracy it is tyranny. You won’t be able to sell tyranny to me as democracy. And every cycle that the deep political corruption at the heart of the Democrats exposes itself for what it is, more and more people see it for what it is.
They didn’t create these contradictions, neither did you and neither did I. But many people are responsible and benefit directly from the carnage. And your plan to oppose them is to stay dumb and stand in line every 4 years.
I said it elsewhere, but it just shows the divide in the Democrats between the progressives and the establishment. The fact that you’ve resigned to a single unconscionable viewpoint doesn’t mean that other people are stupid for going the opposite way. The Palestinian people have been the victims of liberal pragmatism for 75 years. I know you want to collapse all morality and ethics into a single moment when a ballot is cast, but seriously don’t you think that view is somewhat convenient for the establishment? Is this the society you want to take part in and participate in?
No its not, you dread to do it but once every 2-4 years as a matter of duty. But people who don’t subscribe to your sense of moral duty, no different than the enemy right? Cant you see how self defeating it all is?
Refusing to participate grants you zero benefit, and makes it easier for the system to continue.
This has nothing to do with political viewpoints, this is math. There’s no way in hell you’re going to tear it down from the outside so what’s the plan? Sit there and feel smug that you did nothing while everyone suffers?
Checking the box is the bare minimum, and you couldn’t even do that, because it made you feel icky.
Your protest vote, or non vote (same thing), holds negative value for the people of Palestine.
As I said elsewhere, I did vote I have voted and I will continue to vote. So nice strawman. I never discouraged people from voting, but I understand why people didnt. I’m against the browbeating of people for voting their conscience.
Some people don’t know what it means to stand up for what they believe in, since their beliefs appear to be whatever will opportunistically win. Then they condescendingly chide others for risking their own bodies, for having strong beliefs. Those people will betray in the first opportunity, because they only perceive others as a means to get what they themselves want. So frankly, you can shove your pragmatism. Your pragmatism didn’t defeat Trump either, but at least I don’t stand with child murderers and rapists and worse.
I reject your shallow, faulty reasoning.
Please leave me alone.
sure you did.