In other places on around the web, (chiefly /r/RedditAlternatives) whenever Lemmy is brought up, invariably I see the exact same complaints from brand new accounts.
Lemmy is too complicated, it wont gain traction, can’t figure out how to use it, can’t log in, etc.
Now, I’m definitely more tech savvy than the average redditor, but I just don’t see the complaints. You can go to any Lemmy site, instantly start doomscrolling with a familiar UI, and sign up on all the instances I’ve tried has been frankly more simple than making a new reddit account. The only real complaint I have is the generally smaller volume of users and posts.
My only thought here is the words like federation and instances getting people hung up. Maybe join-lemmy.org being a highly ranked site is doing more harm than good by creating an additional barrier to the instances and content.
Ideally, the first link someone sees when googling Lemmy would be a global feed on a fairly generic instance, with a basic tagline akin to ‘front page of the internet.’ End users don’t need to care about the technical details, at least not until they’re interested in the platform.
So is this “Lemmy is too confusing” sentiment even real? And if not, what motive would there be to astroturf this?
If it is a real issue affecting would-be users, how can we address it?
I don’t think Lemmy is too confusing to use but I do think it’s poorly explained. Most people new to a server are only looking at two things:
- Overall content on the front page and how effective its filtering is.
- A topic specific community they are interested in.
But when they begin see the content can be vastly different from server to server and the topics they care about can be split into many communities on different servers they aren’t sure how to access what they want and lose interest.
Reddit at this point a psyop for multiple different countries, political parties, celebrities, influenzars and such. US, Israel, China, Russia, India, Pakistan, and others have Internet task force to push propaganda and limit negative PR.
Votes aren’t public in reddit and is a great cover for hiding any coordinated influence. Keep creating new accounts, make it seem natural by posting on random subs, use old accounts for posts/comments and new accounts for votes. To an unsuspecting user, nothing seems out of ordinary.
On ActivityPub all votes are public and manipulation can be detected or analyzed now or in future. Instance admins could check this and see a pattern. And there are many many many instances, so any one might run into something.
Also mod logs are public in lemmy, unlike reddit. Censorship from mods and admins are already a constant cause for drama but makes it a lot more transparent for the community.
So it’s less influential. So, they try to dissuade people from making Lemmy and Mastodon less interesting.
I’m not saying it’s not possible here, but it’s too early and needs a lot more work than reddit. People already do not interact with users from instances they dislike. You already see some patterns in how users of instance behave and avoid them.
Although since Lemmy votes are public, it does take some restraint to not message people that downvote your comments/posts and ask them why.
You can see who voted your comments? How? I don’t think I can.
There is one server implementation that shows it to its users. I forgot its name though.
I didn’t realise it’s only visible to server admins. I run my own server, and it seems like server admins can view the votes on any comment, not just for comments or posts on their server. Interesting design choice.
What I haven’t checked is if non-admins can load the vote data, and it’s just the button in the UI that’s hidden.
I think mbin makes all votes up or down public. So maybe he’s on an mbin server instead of lemmy
They’re visible to all the server admins. The difference is that anyone can make their own instance and connect to the network as an admin
I don’t think it’s probably being bottled. I think there are just a combination of people who would rather be unhappy where they are than face a bit of resistance getting themselves out of their rut and people who are fanatically devoted to legacy social media due to sunk cost and have a hard time abandoning their decade old accounts. So whenever the topic comes up they are happy to trash Lemmy rather than improve their situation. They are on Reddit alternatives sub for a reason but they won’t get off their ass because nothing is perfect enough for them
Good assessment
The fediverse is too complicated which I said in detail on my post on c/fediverse currently its a mess each domain has hundreds of different sites that aren’t interconnected and where you need to create a new account on each. If Lemmy had a front page like reddit and allowed for all its smaller communities to be coded and personalized to be completely different while allowing the top 25 posts every 24 hours to pop up and allowing a place to search for a specific community. We could still allow an approval process for specific communities but reddit would fall in months with how mods at reddit currently behave
Tip for you since it sounds you are genuinely trying it out but are running into issues: you can post and comment on outside Lemmy communities without creating a different account for the most part. Just navigate to lemmy.world/c/[community name]@[other site domain]. Example: https://lemmy.world/c/science_memes@mander.xyz means you can interact with the community on mander.xyz while staying on your lemmy.world account.
A Lemmy server agnostic link can be made in the form of ![community name]@[other site domain]. Example: !science_memes@mander.xyz, or !fediverse@lemmy.world to help people from anywhere on lemmy to link to c/fediverse.
There’s still a lot of gaps like official methods to redirect post and comment links to your instance (I heard it was coming soon) It is indeed behind Reddit in a lot of technical and social aspects, but I think it’s not completely a bad thing.
!newtolemmy@lemmy.ca has a pinned post that can help too
Most of the negative answers on /r/RedditAlternatives are either botted or bad faith.
!fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com to see a few examples
Just a reminder that Reddit was once difficult for people to understand.
To be honest though, I’m a bit disappointed by the other users here. The quality of comments is really poor, both idiotic and adversarial. I’m talking fox news comment section level.
That’s weird because people here are super fun and clever according to my experience. Of course the debates are seldom in-depth but it’s still interesting and eye-opening for the most part.
I would love to create a group chat to analyze right-wing rhetoric, underline its hollowness passed the racism and ethnocentrism and generally talk about books that are interesting. Social emulation to go further in political science as a passion ! I need to make that group someday
I’ve been seeing waaaay too much unwarranted vitriol and anger in comments lately, for things that really aren’t that big a deal (like Linux vs windows) and I find it disappointing. As a community we should want Lemmy to grow, and yes that does mean we will get more “normie” posts, but imo that’s good and if someone doesn’t like it they can use more niche community spaces, which there will be more of with a larger userbase.
Push back when you see it. Remind them that we have a chance to reset, and they don’t have to act the same way here that they did on reddit.
for things that really aren’t that big a deal (like Linux vs windows)
LOL, Linux vs. Windows flame wars are literally as old as the World Wide Web, and UNIX vs. DOS flame wars are even older than that. Welcome to traditional Internet culture, undiluted by normies.
(Also, I would argue that copyleft Free Software vs. proprietary software riddled with spying, ads, and other user-hostile dark patterns is a way bigger deal than you’re giving it credit for, but that’s a topic for a different thread.)
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Just a reminder that Reddit was once difficult for people to understand.
I honestly don’t believe this at all.
Snapshat was popularized by a generation that grew up only using apps, and it was designed to be obtuse, mysterious and difficult to learn in comparison to other apps as a feature. It grew regardless.
To be honest though, I’m a bit disappointed by the other users here. The quality of comments is really poor, both idiotic and adversarial. I’m talking fox news comment section level.
Yeah so is reddit. The best moderation and engagement in fediverse typically exists in the highly moderated communities that people constantly complain about not respecting their freeze peach and antisocial tendencies.
I used to think I want as tech savvy as the average reddittor, then I saw this shit and made an account. It wasn’t super streamlined, but most definitely manageable if you’ve done anything more advanced than click a link in a verification email.
I came to Lemmy after being permabanned on Reddit, and I didn’t have any problem signing up, logging in, or using it.
I also miss the smaller crowds, but I don’t miss the pages of puns, shitposts, trolls, 4Chan refugees, contrarians, novelty accounts, bots, Russian Propaganda Farmers, etc. I do miss the active forums for some of my favorite subjects, like guitars. The few forums that exist are very quiet, with posts every few days, weeks or even months, instead of constantly, like Reddit.
I find it much better for politics, if for no other reason that we can talk openly without getting suspended or banned.
For sure, people who play guitar (and my other big hobbyi trail riding) typically won’t be this privacy focussed, so I need to go back to Reddit if I want discussion on that outside of real life. There’s other website forums for those at least.
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When I first signed up here, or tried to sign up here, join-lemmy just didn’t want to load anything. So I ended up going to bed and trying again the next morning. The next morning, it finally loaded the list of instances and going by the experience I had just had with the website battling to even load anything, I chose an instance advertised as “join here to reduce load on larger instances”. And this instance just didn’t want to load anything properly. Half of the images in posts just weren’t showing up. And when I searched LGBTQ+ and feminist communities, only dead communities showed up and I’m pretty sure nothing from Blåhaj.
Then I went to world and still found it to be a ghost town. Eventually I realised that it was because ‘English’ wasn’t selected in my language settings. Because I didn’t realise that you have to ctrl click to select both ‘undefined’ and ‘English’. I’ve used software where you have to ctrl click but I’m not sure I’ve ever come across another website where this is the case. And on this note, the whole fact that ‘undefined’ even exists as an option comes across as bush league and makes it look like a beta version.
Then there’s another issue here. The god damn internal politics. So someone signs up on the insurance that says “focused on programming and development”, then have everyone calling them a tankie or be cut off from multiple instances that have de-federated. It’s clear to me now that ‘ml’ stands for “Marxist Leninist” but when you’re new here and just looking at descriptions in join-lemmy, it just looks like a unique url like all the others.
Personally I think there’s a lot of reasons that people would give up trying to get started here. That’s before even trying to break them ice with a silly question in AskLemmy and getting snarky snark and smart asses in the replies. And I use that as an example because in my first week here, I saw someone post an innocent question in AskLemmy, get hostility as a response, then leave.
There are language settings? I signed up through the voyager app and I didn’t see any language settings, is that why I can’t see anything other laguages?
The English + Undefined issue is indeed a nasty issue that makes half of the content disappear for a reason that’s not easy to figure out. It really should be a separate checkbox of whether to show or hide posts where the language is not labelled. I do think that Undefined is selected by default now, but might still get unselected if the language setting is clicked and changed.
For those people saying “Ctrl+Click, should be obvious”, that won’t work at all on mobile web UI.
I’ve used software where you have to ctrl click but I’m not sure I’ve ever come across another website where this is the case
This is the standard behaviour on the web for lists where you can select multiple options. See the example here for instance: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/Elements/select#advanced_select_with_multiple_features
Most sites have a custom version though, since the built-in HTML element has such a poor user experience. I really wish browsers would just switch it to be a list with checkboxes.
The behaviour was based on Windows desktop apps in the 90s (where this behaviour was way more common), but after a while, most things switched to checkbox lists instead.
The behaviour was based on Windows desktop apps in the 90s
Ah, so that’s why it was chosen as the default here.
Yeah I don’t think the multi-select listboxes have really changed much since the days of Internet Explorer 3 and Netscape Navigator. Out of all the standard form components you can use in HTML, it’s probably the one most in need of improvements.
My only thought here is the words like federation and instances getting people hung up. Maybe join-lemmy.org being a highly ranked site is doing more harm than good by creating an additional barrier to the instances and content.
The thing is, that’s a fundamental feature of Lemmy. It’s designed such that no one person or company controls the whole thing. Admins that have differing opinions can each have their own servers with whatever rules they want.
That makes it somewhat incompatible with a a basic signup page like what you’re proposing, just like you can’t have a generic “sign up for email” page without picking a specific provider. Having a huge number of users on a single server somewhat defeats the purpose of decentralization - you’re back to a small number of people / a company having control over a major part of the ecosystem.
Perhaps it could redirect people to a randomly selected instance from a hand-picked list, but maybe that’d be even more confusing? I’m not sure.
Realistically the solution would be instances moving away from the Lemmy ‘brand’. You could more easily direct users to a specific one and fast track newbies past all the fediverse details.
If we go with the email analogy, people rarely ever search for ‘email’, they just go to the specific ones they know. Then searching for lemmy gets you to places like join-lemmy.org that cares about the ecosystem, while terms analogous to gmail directs you more to a specific instance.
And I think this sort of branding model actually more compatible with the idea of decentralization. As a culture, I think we would better serve federation by directly linking and promoting our preferred instances, rather than harping on about federation and the lemmyverse.
If we go with the email analogy, people rarely ever search for ‘email’, they just go to the specific ones they know.
I get it, but everyone going to gmail is not a good thing and never has been. The paradigm shift is more meaningful than simply growing lemmy as a community. Without that, the only difference from a mainstream social network today would be a handful of big players rather than just one.
Realistically the solution would be instances moving away from the Lemmy ‘brand’
This is a great idea, and I think some instances do this. I seem to remember Beehaw taking this approach. Similar to forums - each forum has a different name even if they use the same software.
The tricky part for regular users to understand is that if they sign up on one server, they can still access content on others. Old-school internet users that used to use Usenet would understand it (Usenet functioned the same way) but the majority of users are used to centralized services these days, which makes it hard.
Maybe, but I believe in Occam’s razer. The simplest solution is probably correct.
The average user is incredibly lazy. Insanely lazy. Reddit has taught them that they should be just spoonfed content constantly with no assistance. People aren’t used to going out to find communities anymore. To them even these basic concepts are then “frustrating” and “complex”. It’s unfortunate, but that’s really how lazy they are.
They can’t go to the search bar, type in television, and hit subscribe, it’s literally too much for them.
People are ready for alternatives to Reddit, Twitter, Facebook… Can a community on reddit shutdown, and seamlessly transfer to lemmy within a few days while archiving the subreddits history? Will the new Lemmy be hands off moderation at the site level so that conversation can be had? If you can give people a yes to both people will join.
Sure, but the complaints I see are never “I don’t see content there that I like”, it’s always “its too complicated and I can’t sign up/see content at all”
but if you make it to any Lemmy site, you’re right there on the home feed instantly, same as reddit.
So is it really a problem of users not even making it to an instance? Are they really all getting brick-walled by join-lemmy.org, or is something else going on here?
I think a good chunk of them are just confused by going to join-lemmy and not be given a sign up in their face. Sure, we know that about 5 seconds of reading comprehension skill would get them where they want to go, but the vast majority of users don’t have that. Look how many people will walk up to a cash register/till with a sign on it that says “credit card only” and then be confused that they don’t take cash. Most people don’t read anymore.
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Also, Lemmy has ways of discovering communities. Just browse the all-local or all-federated feeds and you’ll see what communities are popular.
The “can’t sign up” complaints might have something to do with how most instances make you answer questions like “why do you want to sign up” and “what communities will you browse” as a simple way of stopping automated sign-ups, and if they didn’t put anything in the box or just said things like “IDK I’m from Reddit” they might have been rejected due to the admins thinking they’re a bot or spammer or something.
Gonna throw in my personal conspiracy theory (that I don’t have any evidence for): I haven’t been on Reddit Alternatives since I found Lemmy, but based on what i remember, there seem to be quite a few people who have spun up their own projects and are promoting them pretty hard on that subreddit. Who’s to say if one or more of them decided to buy bot comments to smear their competitors?
Yeah, that’s the type of motive I was struggling to find. I could absolutely see that happening.
I think you described short form video like reels, tiktok, shorts users as well perfectly.
Source?
What are you, a cop?
I just want to see what the OP is talking about without having to browse reddit myself.
How dare someone ask for something like… facts and evidence.
My anti-lemmy sentiment comes from raw experience like dumbfuck comments and witnessing the extent of ACAB brainrot.
Okay, well you know where the exit is.
join-lemmy.org could show the posts from all, with a big join button at the top. The introduction page can be shown if somebody presses the join button.
yeah, the ui sucks ass if you dont use an app