The same thing happened in the 80s with Japan. The Japanese were no longer making crappy cars but small and very reliable, affordable cars. Detroit was still making rust buckets, obsessing over powerful engines with bodies that rotted out and defects galore. Detroit got beaten up badly (Chrysler had to get a gov bailout) until they cleaned up their act and improved their products. Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/how-detroits-automakers-went-from-kings-of-the-road-to-roadkill/
We still don’t let in the small pickups the rest of the world enjoys.
defects galore
A friend of mine from high school attended the GM Institute and became an engineer for them. One of his first projects was on a team that bought a Lexus and an Infiniti when they first came on the market and took them apart to see how many production defects they had. He said a typical American car at the time (and this was in the '90s after quality had rebounded somewhat from its disastrous nadir) had 300-400 defects. The Infiniti they took apart had 2. The Lexus had 0.
I would kill for a small electric truck… Telo is calling my name, but they don’t have a functioning product yet.
Right there with you on small trucks, the kid and I have been drooling over the Slate even if it is Bezos. I drive a '98 Ranger, and we’ve been kicking around the idea of a Ranger electric conversion.
Did Japan back then pay their assembly line workers the equivalent of $5k USD/year (in today’s dollars) and have nearly no worker protections? Not a rhetorical question; I just don’t know. Seems like Japan had a better standard of living back then compared to Chinese workers now, so I would guess their workers were compensated and treated better.
Not defending US auto corps (or any corp for that matter). The regulatory capture in the US is insane, and workers aren’t treated as well as most of the rest of the first world.
Japan back then had (and still has) an interesting socioeconomic system, a bit similar to samurai clans went cartels, where workers are supposed to work all their life in one place (or close to that), don’t squeal about worker rights and such, but be covered by lots of company-provided social nets and guarantees.
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Back then American industries were just complacent due to insufficient competition, and Japan’s industrial development was a bit of a miracle (that “living in year 2000 since 1980s” joke).
5K/year isn’t exactly poverty when rent is <200, phone data is 20, and you can get pic for 1.50 USD. I too would like them to be treated better, but I dont know if their overall situation is worse than the average american worker making 50K, but spending 24K on rent, 12K on car payments, and 16USD if they eat out.
Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
And it did. Japanese companies maintained a solid portion of the market in the US, a notable lead in quality, and many consumers no longer willing to waste money on crappy overpriced low quality cars from American companies. American cars were forced to get better and they’re better off for it, but they resisted the entire time, just like today.
Lmao, Chinese shills are actual news now? Fucking low as it gets.
Because it’s available to anyone. Not just Chinese owned companies and every other auto maker has similar taxes.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.
Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can’t compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren’t made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Growing up in the 90s in Wisconsin, all the conservatives around me always talked shit about foreign cars.
I can’t comprehend how they justified it. But I also knew nothing about cars.
It was only back in ~2016 that I realized how much building a car is similar to building a computer. Supply chains, common parts, designs made to fit common “cases”. Etc etc.
Hmmm. I think US cars can absolutely compete. Here is the problem. Foreign manufacturers make cars that people want to buy. American manufacturers make cars that they want to sell. These two things are not the same.
I want Ford Escorts, Geo Metros, VW Rabbits. I want a small, uncomplicated, economy shitbox. A small cheap car that my broke ass can fix when it breaks. And no car company that makes cars in this country makes that anymore.
Right? The only thing on the market for EVs in the US right now is “luxury” crossovers and trucks. What people really want is an electric civic hatchback.
Mourning the loss of the Saturn in the world.
Makes me think of Dell.
I don’t give two cents for the american auto brands but spare me the drama: try and make a proper car.
Looking at Ford: try importing a few models from the european line and offer it in the states. Small, economic, somewhat reliable, fuel efficient cars.
Stellantis has a slew of models that could be brought into the american market. They make good cars.
And I’m willing to bet GM as a few models they build and market overseas that would be guaranteed sucesses.
Uh, to be clear, I don’t think Michael Dunne is advocating against China in this context. He worked in the Chinese auto sector for decades. He isn’t an alarmist, he’s their salesman.
Not enough Americans will buy small euro cars. Do you seriously think they wouldn’t just do that if they could justify the cost of switching off a f150 assembly line to make a small car they would. Ford and Chevy both had a ton of small cars throughout the years but the sales aren’t there anymore.
Ford stopped making cars because they can’t compete with the current crop of cars coming from Japan/Korea and Europe regardless of how much money they throw at the problem. They have their niche with trucks and SUVs and are happy to stay there. China builds cars using massive government subsidies, slave labor, and local resources that aren’t available to anyone else in the world which is why I think it’s right to fight against them because it’s impossible to compete against them just like a small local grocery store can’t compete against Walmart.
You’d have an argument if legacy manufacturers were trying. We could talk about support if they were willing. They don’t want it. They’ve already given up
By “legacy manufacturers” you mean every major auto manufacturer in the world that isn’t based in China?Nobody else is selling new cars for as little as $4k because other countries aren’t using slave labor in mines and factory floors. It’s impossible to compete against that unless you engage in it yourself.
Yet Chinese cars that meet US standards are quite a bit more than that. Where such vehicles are sold in developed markets, they are more like €30-40k
By “legacy manufacturers” I mean those who are stuck on internal combustion engines, and focusing on large trucks and luxury trims.
Average new car price in the US has greatly outpaced inflation and is currently almost $50k, closing in on a full year gross average income. Most people can’t afford that. For that rice you get old technology engine, old technology transmission, same features we’ve had for years.
Yet a replacement for my Subaru is much cheaper, only a little over what I paid nine years ago. It has safety features, electronics, and transmission more innovative than us made cars costing twice as much. Many more people can afford this vehicle, and it’s similar in price to what Chinese cars are selling for in Europe.
We don’t need to compete with $4k cars. We need to compete with cars affordable on average salaries, with new features and unique capabilities.
While the transition to electric vehicles has been politicized, it’s coming and it’s inexorable. “Legacy manufacturers” are those avoiding that change
China builds cars using massive government subsidies, slave labor, and local resources that aren’t available to anyone else in the world
Why are Japanese and Korean cars also better/cheaper than American cars then?
Slave labor
Citation needed
Massive government subsidies
The US doesn’t massively subsidise auto-makers?
But yeah china bad
Why are Japanese and Korean cars also better/cheaper than American cars then?
They’re not cheaper than American cars. Go price some out.
Citation needed
The US doesn’t massively subsidise auto-makers?
China subsidizes Chinese companies. The US gives subsidies to manufacturers from all over the world via tax credits to buyers.
China builds cars using massive government subsidies
The federal government ended the the EV subsidy a few years ago.
slave labor
lmao. We know what slavery looks like, you can see it in the cotton fields outside Angola Prison, rows of enslaved people, and overseer on a horse, all behind barbed wire. In Xinjiang I saw farmers driving combine harvesters in roadside fields.
local resources that arent available
You’re getting closer. Through 1 and 5 year plans, the CPC uses SoEs (and sometimes just asks private companies “nicely”) to ensure the foundational inputs, steel, rubber, chips, college graduates, etc are all available to industry at the specific price point and volume that competing private firms need to produce say, 100m EVs or a million more apartments.
Any country can do a little central planning to make sure private industry has what it needs, but this only works if you’re able to take action against companies that exploit the system.
The federal government ended the the EV subsidy a few years ago.
Buyers of any EV not just American EVs.
lmao. We know what slavery looks like, you can see it in the cotton fields outside Angola Prison, rows of enslaved people, and overseer on a horse, all behind barbed wire.
I’m glad you find slavery so comical.
Were these inmates enslaved for their religious beliefs being different than the official party line? We they imprisoned for not wanting to be controlled by a dictatorship? No. No they weren’t.
Through 1 and 5 year plans, the CPC uses SoEs (and sometimes just asks private companies “nicely”) to ensure the foundational inputs, steel, rubber, chips, college graduates, etc are all available to industry at the specific price point and volume that competing private firms need to produce say, 100m EV or a million more apartments.
Gee, it sure sounds like you’re listing even more slavery than I mentioned. Imagine Trump declaring that every college grad needs to make themselves available to build a border wall.
Any country can do a little central planning to make sure private industry has what it needs, but this only works if you’re able to take action against companies that exploit the system.
The only exploitation mentioned here is the government exploiting the people. It seems your argument is based on your warped belief that if the US is committing atrocities than it’s okay for everyone else to do so, yet your examples are in stark contrast to what’s happening here. Your views are frankly quite disgusting and proof of how absurd the Chinese government’s propaganda arm is.
Buyers of any EV not just American EVs.
I was talking about china, their federal govt ended ev subsidies in 2022. I suspect some city and provincial level govts still do various types of subsidies.
We they imprisoned for not wanting to be controlled by a dictatorship?
Bro are you trying to justify slavery in the US? You dont have to do that to criticize China. But you have to have to learn about its actual problems, not just accept any silly stories western media comes up with. Try visiting some time, its incredibley cheap, you can rent out decent sized apartments for 15/night in most cities, theres also sleeper trains, combine transport and 1 nights lodging, and food is often <2usd/meal.
Imagine Trump declaring that every college grad needs to make themselves available to build a border wall.
That’s not how that works at all, they simply invest more into educating people into a particular field to ensure there will be enough people with the required skills in a particular area.
How did you even misinterpret my post like that?
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You are wrong. American manufacturers are captured by the oil conglomerates to sell fuel. That’s why you have giant behemoths barrelling down the highways. F150s have almost doubled in size over the last two decades.
Ok👍
We will put that on their headstone.
I’m not convinced it’s lack of sales. Trucks are the most profitable to manufacture but sales vary by region and some parts of the country are much more interested in smaller cars, but they ceded that market to Japanese manufacturers
It’s not they they can’t make them or that the sales aren’t there but that trucks are the easy route. They’re more profitable per unit and easier sell in some areas.
Part of this is also sleazy dealerships. Trucks have by far the biggest incentives so sleazy dealerships can get people excited about the “deal” they get over list price
The average new truck costs 50% more. Every small car they sell is a lost truck sale.
Must be a pricing issue.
What Ford European line? They discontinued the Mondeo and their minivans. Now it’s hatch or crappy SUV. Or Mustang. Oh wait. Focus is end of life too now. It’s mustang or crappy crossover SUVs only.
Good, let’s do it. I’m tired of our tax money keeping shitty car companies floating.
First the enshittified the food
Then the health care
Then every consumer product
Finally they enshittified the nation itself
Before that they enshitified the labor movement and unions via red scare tactics so there was less resistance to the enshitification process
Bring Your Drink.
I mean, didn’t Japanese and Korean automakers already do that?
Yes. They did. That’s called competition. It forces companies to improve by destroying them, except they don’t want that. And politicians don’t want that, cause it makes corruption unstable.
Killed Detroit too, though. But, eh, helped other parts. It’s life.
Thus already in the 90s with the TRON OS a different approach was chosen by US regulators - threaten Japan with sanctions if it’s allowed to compete with Windows inside Japan .
They can’t threaten China, but they can prevent Chinese competitive goods from entering US market and improving its economy again.
Bad economy - poor and stressed people, poor and stressed people - worse political decisions, worse political decisions - good for middlemen which in our age shouldn’t exist frankly. We have the technologies for direct democracy, it’s not 1920s.
We have the technologies for direct democracy
One from the list, yes.
Wish I could upvote twice. As far as I’m aware there’s about 5 American politicians who actually care about more than just lining their pockets.
American manufacturing seems very incapable of change. If things worked this way for decades, why change it? Meanwhile the world moved on and they ask themselves why doesn’t anyone wanna buy american…?
You think Americans can’t change, just look at German Automakers. They are stuck in Perpetual denial. VW only moved electric because of the massive diesel scandal, otherwise they also would have been like every other car manufacturer.
Yes, but nobody ever expected Germany to be quick and adapt. Germany does not do that in general. It takes something that exists, perfects it, and then sells the perfection of the existing thing, ideally until really not a single person on the world needs it anymore. US on the other hand, has the reputation where innovation begins and does wonders. I am asking myself, where is the innovation in their autoindustry? Last thing was actually Tesla itself, when they started producing first electric cars.
It is the same situation, but the expectation is completely opposite.
Even if they changed how would they win?
They’re just too expensive to manufacture as compared to chinese ones.
If they are too expensive due to cost of labor, they can do, look at other comments, increased automation.
With automation China’s advantages over US are mostly in the bureaucratic efficiency area. Both in the government’s parts interacting with big companies and in the companies themselves.
US big companies are just too used to preferential treatment and solving market problems with lobbying, which worked when they were the spearhead of progress or something.
Expensive is not a problem it it’s followed by the appropriate quality. Also, US should be far more able to use tech to automate and make efficient, same as China can use cheap labour. In the end, a robot is a one-time fee, doesn’t get sick, and can work 24/7, easy and fast to learn new processes. Long term a robot will always outpeform a human.
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No, it relies on massive automation. Similary their solar industry etc
For example
It brings up a valid point. Assembly line manufacturing will soon require massive automation lines to remain profitable, and without massive government assistance in not just money, but education and training, these kinds of automation factories will likely never be fully realized here.
They don’t need any government assistance, they just need to take the millions they pay out to stakeholders, and invest them into automation. The money is there, just being handed out to a few people. Why should the government pay for something that sits on tons of cash but won’t use it?
Tesla somehow manages to do well(at least prior to the nazi events). Still at a good price in Norway.
But all other manufacturers have dragged their feet with EVs, and that price cost of starting is large enough that they are in trouble. I’m not a huge fan of China, but they did the investment and are ahead exactly because of that (and crazy subsidies). Being left behind is their own fault imo, and I think that applies a lot to EU as well. Eg. WV.
They could try going for quality or features.
But instead they are only going for size, what 94% of the world does not care or want. (this includes the 5% of Americans)
American car companies are focusing on their highest profit center, massive trucks. Milking that market for the short term.
…… regardless of their long term survival. It seems extremely short sighted.
American companies exist to maximize shareholder value. Remember that. There is no company, doing anything, for the better of the world or humanity. At least not as the primary motivation.
Dunno, seems like a global problem. European car companies are scared too. And they don’t make those big cars.
The only issue I see is that china is very hostile with how it deals with other countries, otherwise this is just the trend of how things work out. In the 80s, it was the japanese car industry.
They’ve got to keep their profit margins, or the CEO’s and shareholders might need to take a paycut.
Oh no! Anyway…
Maybe GM could, I don’t know, innovate?
Targeted tariffs and protectionism can help a situation like this, combined with subsidies like the ones Trump cancelled, to give legacy manufacturers a temporary respite to retool and innovate. However backtracking on your transition, reverting to the tried and true short term profits is just hiding your head in the sand. GM will find itself increasingly marginalized and more years behind. You can’t hide behind trumps skirt forever
They have some wonderful new finamcial products released just this quarter!
As an European living in Asia and can’t help but cringe at American cars. They’re so far behind. And it’s the car country. Japan has better cars and better rail. Embarassing.
Agreed. I’m American and think American manufacturers make the ugliest and worst cars. Outside of the Corvette, which remains the best spots car in it’s price range.
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
That would require companies roll profits back into development and their employees instead of pocketing it all, schemes like stock buybacks and wall st traders.
I hate that the US is like this. People would EASILY pay more for American if the quality was there. But ffs they don’t even try anymore. They just make slop and expect us to pay more for it.
Which sucks because I did use to think that “Made in the USA” meant better quality.
Were you born in 1960 or something? That hasn’t been true for 50+ years
Also labor price is unmatched. Nobody would work for the wage they give to children in China, so you can’t really go that much cheaper while not sacrificing safety.
Not saying Chinese cars are that well made.
That’s true, but we could subsidize the cost of labor too. People make a living wage, but the company pays less than that because government covers the difference.
Like we don’t have child labor here in the good ol’ USA.
They’re being pretty ruthless about grabbing all the world’s resources to make them as well.
No the rest of the world has been sleeping when China silently bought all the mines and harbors in the past decades.
China is performing a new colonialism. Exploiting poor countries for their cheap resources.
While the rest of the world is trying to steer away from it because it is so horrible. So please, don’t praise China for it.
You don’t understand colonialism much. They aren’t taking anything by force like the rest of the west did for centuries.
They are doing business, there is a difference.
If our CEOs and business leaders are supposedly the world’s best, why didn’t they spent their capital shutting China down instead of their lavish lifestyles and payouts for their wealthy stockholders? I guess they aren’t as good at running businesses as they claim to be.
When the only goal by law is maximize profits, the motivation tends to favor minimizing cost. Change the rules, and enforce a new set of values. Only then will the situation improve.
That and the fact that these people aren’t patriots. They’re looters. They don’t believe in America per se. They believe in the economic system that advantages them and disadvantages others. It’s just that simple. America is no longer a land of opportunity. Perpetual poverty is their goal. Keeping people down is the point.
I have to concede that i believe you might be right about that, sadly.
China has compulsory education for children just like America. There’s no child labor in China.
They pay adult workers less in China, but these yuan has 7x buying power than the dollar in China
That’s what Chinese propagandists want you to think, there are way more people living in (borderline) poverty (per capita) than in the US.
Social media is being fed with a slice of mainland China, but anything beyond that is people struggling to keep ends meet.
Very few children work in china right now, Chinese workers even have 5 days of vacation a year by law.
That’s 5 more than the US…
There were probably more children working on farms in the US than in china, and I remember something about Florida wanting to reinstate child labour again?
Yes, there may not be child labor. But in places we cannot see, there are still black industry chains. A brick factory was exposed some time ago. They let some people with low IQ or disabilities work. They were not given masks, and the air was full of dust. They may work more than ten hours a day or even more. What is the difference between this and slavery? I just want to give this example to illustrate that there are still many black-hearted factories in society, and there is also the possibility of employing child labor. In China, young people who have not studied will choose to work in factories, but they must be at least 16 years old. If they are younger, they will not be hired. Back to the issue of BYD, although we are proud that it can be recognized by the world as a Chinese brand, and many people in China also buy it. But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc. Someone exposed the chat records within the company. We are all ordinary people. We just want to fight for our rights. Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
Yes but they are trying to better themselves, it’s a slow process, but there is progress. And they came a long way since the 70’s.
Countries like America are going backwards. At this rate the USA is a worse country for the working class than China in 20 years, if not already.
I agree with this. No country has ever been like China, which has grown from the founding of the People’s Republic of China in 1949 to the world’s second largest economy. This is all the joint efforts of the people and the government. But we are not like our parents’ generation, who were satisfied even with low salaries, and always had a smile on their faces, often saying that they were working to build a new China. We are in our twenties now, but our bodies are already in our thirties or forties. We stay up late every day and have to work overtime, and we don’t like working. We refuse to work overtime for any reason, work in bad weather, and give ourselves very low salaries. This is not for the motherland but for the capitalists who seek personal gain.
We still have a question, why do we work so hard when we have achieved what we have now? We envy people in Europe, who have easy work. Every time we take a holiday, we have to make up for it with more working days. You often say that Chinese people are hardworking, but the younger generation does not want to suffer unnecessary hardships. We realize that we come to this world to enjoy life, not to spend the best decades of our lives working.
I think it’s about being content with what you have. Not always wanting more and bigger and better. I have a comfortable salary, nothing too much, loads of people earn way more, but i can pay my mortgage and all other costs, don’t have to worry about losing my job. And still have enough money left to spend on nice things.
I don’t have to save up loads of money for medical bills or other unfortunate events. I can just easily live my life.
That having said I’m still fed up with the daily grind, so I’m selling the house now to retire early somewhere in Spain or Italy, hopefully going off grid somewhere in the mountains enjoying peace and quiet and nature, embracing my inner hermit.
I also want to save money to buy a house in our village. Most of us came to the city from the countryside, but I don’t have enough money. I don’t think I am not ungrateful, but the salary of the company is indeed lower than the industry average. That’s why I think so. Your life seems wonderful — I truly wish you all the best.
But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc.
Lol, managers are Tesla are contracted for 80hr work weeks…
Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
Agreed! Fuck em all!
This is the slavery they are refrencing i think.
BYD did get caught using slave labor.
https://apnews.com/article/brazil-slave-labor-china-car-factory-byd-991c5670eefdd564fd465648b77b3869
That’s fine.
Capitalism is all about competition unless it’s not.
BYD?
