• TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I was on the side of Houthis after being oppressed by American-backed, Saudi-led military forces. But now it became clear they are lackeys of Iran who attack innocent sailors, who have no dog in the geopolitical dick measuring contest.

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      3 months ago

      Yeah. I was never on the side of the Houthis, but I considered our support for Saudi-backed murderers instead of Iranian-backed murderers to be utterly pointless, except negatively insofar as it involved us backing a bunch of vile fuckers in a conflict we had no business being in.

      Still wouldn’t support the Saudis if it were up to me. But now I certainly support retaliating against the Houthis until they stop attacking international civilian shipping.

  • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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    3 months ago

    what’s your position on western sanctions on russia? innocent russians have definitely died as a result of the sanctions

    do you agree with the notion of a blockade but not with the specific group doing it? can an action be bad solely because of the party that’s enacting it?

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      3 months ago

      what’s your position on western sanctions on russia?

      My position is that intentionally attacking civilians with military force is indefensible. I don’t know why that’s suddenly popular on some corners of the online left.

      do you agree with the notion of a blockade but not with the specific group doing it?

      • I dispute that the Houthis are genuinely attempting to blockade Israel

      • I dispute that, even if they were, that their actions constitute in any way a viable way to blockade Israel

      • I dispute that, even if their blockade was successful, that it would meaningfully impact Israel’s ongoing genocide, considering that most trade that passes through the area isn’t going to Israel, and that the amount of trade that does pass through to Israel through Eilat is not nearly significant enough to damage their ongoing efforts, which are not exactly stymied by a lack of cars from China or a lack of diamonds from India.

      • I dispute that attacking civilians, a war crime, is morally acceptable. There are laws in the modern day, it’s not the fucking Bronze Age.

      • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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        3 months ago

        I dispute that, even if they were, that their actions constitute in any way a viable way to blockade Israel

        so their actions are bad because you don’t think they’ll be effective? honestly, pressuring global trade has historically been a pretty good way of achieving goals in capitalism

        I dispute that attacking civilians, a war crime, is morally acceptable.

        again, sanctions on russia have definitely killed people

        so you’re fine with people dying, just so long as they do it from freezing to death in their homes rather than by direct military action?

        • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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          3 months ago

          so their actions are bad because you don’t think they’ll be effective? honestly, pressuring global trade has historically been a pretty good way of achieving goals in capitalism

          Thanks for giving up the game and admitting that you support this not because it blockades under 10% of Israel’s trade, but because it disrupts non-Israeli trade.

          again, sanctions on russia have definitely killed people

          I’m sorry that the words ‘attack’ and ‘war crime’ mean nothing to you.

          • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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            3 months ago

            because it disrupts non-Israeli trade

            so, just to set a baseline here, are we agreed that

            • what israel is doing is bad
            • stopping israel from doing what they’re doing is good
            • stopping israeli trade might stop what they’re doing
            • therefore stopping israel from trading is good

            given that trade is definitionally between two separate parties, one of the countries in the equation has to not be israel

            how can you stop israel from trading without impacting other countries?

            tldr: the sanctions on russia also have an impact on global trade, so if this is your redline, you should be anti-sanctions

            I’m sorry that the words ‘attack’ and ‘war crime’ mean nothing to you.

            are you saying the blockade is different to sanctions because russia attacked ukraine and is committing war crimes?

            i’m not sure if you’ve paid attention to things in israel recently

            • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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              3 months ago

              how can you stop israel from trading without impacting other countries?

              tldr: the sanctions on russia also have an impact on global trade, so if this is your redline, you should be anti-sanctions

              A desperate backtrack after giving up the game. Sorry that “Let’s hurt trade between everyone we can, not just those trading with Israel” isn’t what most people would regard as just.

              are you saying the blockade is different to sanctions because russia attacked ukraine and is committing war crimes?

              Brush up on your English.

              • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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                3 months ago

                fucking christ can you stop wanking yourself off with rhetoric for 5 minutes and actually address something i’m saying? ta

    • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      Enforcing a punitive economic strategy isn’t the same as engaging in glorified pirate terrorism because Iran told you to but you totally insist it’s for palestinian liberation toats mcgoats my dudes!

      Speaking as a Palestinian, fuck the houthis and their opportunistic bullshit with a hot iron.

    • MrMakabar@slrpnk.net
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      3 months ago

      Sanctions are not a blockade. Sanctions would be the Houthis stopping all of their own trade with Israel for example. The Houthis blockading Israel mesns they try to stop everybody from trading with Israel by force. Hence a blockade is an act of war.

      And no I do not believe somebody being vegan is an act of war.

      • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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        3 months ago

        Hence a blockade is an act of war.

        but we’re not talking about something being an act of war

        we’re talking about whether it’s morally justifiable

        are you saying any offensive war is automatically unjustifiable?

        • MrMakabar@slrpnk.net
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          3 months ago

          Right now the Houthis in practise blockade the Bab-el-Mandeb for everybody. The first ship they sunk Rubymar, was Belize flagged and Lebanese operated and ultimatly owned. It also caused a massive enviromental disaster in the region, due to carrying fertilizer.

          What I am saying, is that an act of war against Lebanon, is not a moral response to actions of the state of Israel.

          However you clearly disagree with that and consider any and all action justified as long as somebody labels them anti Israel.

          • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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            3 months ago

            presumably if somebody’s shipping weapons to israel, you’d be fine with the houthis sinking that ship? so you don’t disagree with the blockade in principle, you just think it’s being implemented too strictly?

  • RageAgainstTheRich@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I know the comments are immediately filled by these assholes but I’m glad they are being down voted and OP is being up voted.

    Its so akward to engage with people like that… it’s like people supporting russia because ukraine is supported by america. 2 can be shit at once. Its not that hard.

    If isis starts attacking israel, that does not mean you need to support isis…

    • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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      3 months ago

      if in some bizzare, hypothetical fantasy world, isis somehow invaded israel and stopped the ongoing genocide there and delivered a perfect two state solution overnight, would you be morally against specifically that action because it was isis who did it?

      to be clear, i’m not asking whether you’d be against isis as a whole: just whether you’d be against isis ending the current israel-palestine situation peacefully

      • almar_quigley@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        This is you “so what if hypothetically Putin solves world hunger, homelessness, and redistributed all wealth so everyone was on equal playing field. Oh, oh. And he disarmed all their nukes and led the disarmament of all nuclear armed nations? Oh AND He helped solved climate change? Then would think he’s a good guy?” Like those hypotheticals are bonkers and useless.

        • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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          3 months ago

          it’s called a thought experiment

          do i think anybody is realistically going to kidnap me and plumb my kidneys into a world famous violinist? no. but i can still use that hypothetical to make a point. do i think anybody is likely to run into a barn at 0.9c while holding a long ladder? no, but i can still use that to learn something.

          based on your response, i presume you agree that a group can do bad things, or even be on the whole bad by a very wide margin, but still do something good worthy of praise?

          • almar_quigley@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Yeah but being bad and doing a good thing from time to time doesn’t make you good. Your thought experiment doesn’t provide any value because no one is saying everything the bad groups do is always and forever bad. It’s more like the severity of badness outweighs any good they are doing when it comes to the perception of them.

            I’m sure Hitler gave his friends very nice and thoughtful presents. At the same time he was ordering a genocide. Are those presents then bad? Not on the surface. Is he redeemable because of that? No.

            • AlexanderTheDead@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Idek the historical context or anything that’s going on in this situation right now, but your inability to see nuance and your insistent strawman is telling and exhausting.

            • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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              3 months ago

              Yeah but being bad and doing a good thing from time to time doesn’t make you good.

              sure, and i’m not saying that the hypothetical would make isis good

              i’m saying that it would make fantasy isis worthy of praise for this specific hypothetical achievement

      • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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        3 months ago

        If they did that I’d be grateful to them. And if I had wheels I’d be a wagon.

        • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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          3 months ago

          so you agree that a group can do bad things, or even be on the whole bad by a very wide margin, but still do something good worthy of praise?

            • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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              3 months ago

              If isis starts attacking israel, that does not mean you need to support isis…

              it was a response to this, which in the context of the original post, has a sentiment that directly contradicts what you just agreed with

              • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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                3 months ago

                Acknowledging that a terrible organization has done something good doesn’t mean I support them.

                • switchboard_pete@fedia.io
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                  3 months ago

                  the meme never mentions supporting houthis, it says praising them

                  acknowledging somebody has done something good is praising them

                  hence “If isis starts attacking israel, that does not mean you need to support isis…” is a bad response

  • culprit@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    I am very disturbed by mean words on a flag and a naval blockade in protest to an ongoing genocide.

    Hmmm

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      3 months ago

      “Naval blockade” here meaning “attacking random civilian ships in international waters because they MIGHT be Jews”

      Yes, I am sure this is how a naval blockade against a particular country works, you just pick a handful of civilian ships at random to shoot at and claim they were secretly part of your enemies. War crimes are okay when it’s Your Side (and apparently, your side is the Islamofascists, very curious)

      EDIT: Of course, they’re a Tiananmen Square denier too. How predictable.

        • Furball@sh.itjust.works
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          3 months ago

          Being against Israel is not the one and only measure for whether a group is good or not

          • culprit@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            Stop doing a genocide.

            Stop blockading the genociders!

            You first.

            • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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              3 months ago

              Stop blockading the genociders!

              Yes, the genociders like [checks notes] Greece, China, and India.

              Maybe if you attack enough civilians, you’ll accidentally hit some Israelis. Keep going!

              • culprit@lemmy.ml
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                3 months ago

                So how many innocent blockade runners have died vs innocent civilians been genocided?

                • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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                  3 months ago

                  So how many innocent blockade runners have died vs innocent civilians been genocided?

                  I guess “Intentionally targeting civilians and committing war crimes is bad” sounds like radical shitlib stuff to you, as long as the people you claim to oppose (but are targeting and killing people entirely unrelated to them) are committing more war crimes.

        • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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          3 months ago

          Doing more to stop a genocide than the western powers sending weapons.

          “By killing Fillipino civilian sailors heading to Saudi Arabia, this will finally stop the genocide of Palestinians by Israel!”

          Have fun with your war crimes.

          How many war crimes on balance?

          ‘on balance’?

          What, is this some kind of fucking game to you? “They committed war crimes, so we can commit so war crimes too”? Jesus fucking Christ. How utterly morally bankrupt.

            • barsquid@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              “Whoever commits fewer war crimes is moral and whatever war crimes they did were good and justified.” Quite logical.

            • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              Murdering civilians intentionally is inexcusable regardless of how many.

              By your logic literally every genocide the US supported and engaged in would have been completely excused had they just struck the right KD ratio by throwing their death row inmates at the enemy first.

            • Furball@sh.itjust.works
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              Somebody killing people doesn’t give you a right to kill random unrelated people, just because you are killing fewer people

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      3 months ago

      It’s insane how people lecturing others about how “the lesser evil is still evil, and evil is unacceptable” are going all in to lick the boots of a bigoted fascist theocracy that rules over its stretch of Yemen by naked force for attacking civilians unrelated to the cause they’re supposedly supporting.

  • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    Fucking psychopaths would see the Palestinian laborer crushed under the boot of theocracy purely because “they shoot at jews sometimes tho.”

  • zante@lemmy.wtf
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    3 months ago

    Comments removed for trolling…… on a meme sub.

    That’s novel.

  • sweetpotato@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    One can do a good action and a bad action at the same time. They can support a national liberation struggle and oppress their citizens at the same time. I don’t know why you’d have to make a final verdict, countries are not people you should hang out with. They are bureaucratic entities with interests that are a lot of the times opposite to those of the people. How about all counties are bad?

    Also I don’t understand why you would hold the poorest country in the world that was facing a genocide and the worst humanitarian crisis in earth 5-10 years ago by the Saudis and the US to the same social standards as the West. These people are hungry, poor, destroyed in every way and up until recently had to fight to gain their independence. Who do you expect to rule except for these Houthi fighters? If the west and the Saudis had let them live, then we could talk. I see this stupid take so often like with Afghanistan, it’s frustrating.

      • sweetpotato@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        Once you realize that the reason they are not treating women equal is because they’ve been uneducated and starved to death by imperial powers to reach the point to have this government, and not because they are stupid or something, then we can talk. Oh and once you learn to read how I never said it’s acceptable, but rather that we can applaud them for one thing and condemn them for another.

        If you let them live for a couple of decades they will sort it out is the main idea.

        • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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          3 months ago

          Once you realize that the reason they are not treating women equal is because they’ve been uneducated and starved to death by imperial powers to reach the point to have this government

          It’s incredibly racist how you assume no agency on the part of anyone who isn’t white. But that seems to be par for the course for a certain section of the online left.

          • sweetpotato@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            You are literally twisting my words to the point it is disgusting. I said the exact opposite, this is so toxic or your reading comprehension is very bad.

        • blackris@discuss.tchncs.de
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          Hey, just maybe they are uneducated and starved nearly to death by imperial powers and also absolute motherfuckers. Sounds like that.

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      Who do you expect to rule except for these Houthi fighters?

      Holy fucking shit, please look into the history of the Yemeni Civil War. The idea of the Houthis as fighting for the independence of the Yemeni people is beyond absurd.

      That’s some “Who do you expect to rule except the Taliban” level take-

      I see this stupid take so often like with Afghanistan, it’s frustrating.

      … of course.

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      3 months ago

      “Israel is genociding Palestine! Obviously, this means that we MUST kill Filipino civilian sailors on a Greek boat going to Saudi Arabia to stop Israel!”

      Brilliant. Have fun with that.

      • zante@lemmy.wtf
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        3 months ago

        I will.

        It small beer next to ghoulish memeing while Israel is 50000 murders into genocide and is doubling down and escalating while you fuck about in photoshop for upvotes .

        • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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          3 months ago

          Ghoulish memeing

          Have you ever been to hexbear or .ml?

          That’s literally the only thing they have.

        • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          It ain’t ghoulish to point out that theocrats aren’t part of liberation you fucking twat.

          “Critical support to the spanish inquisition in their struggle against wester imperialism!”

          That’s you, that’s what you’re trying to do whenever you try to act like the houthis deserve anything but to get shit on for what they’ve done to their own people, nevermind the civilians they’re murdering for happening to be in the region.

        • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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          It small beer next to ghoulish memeing while Israel is 50000 murders into genocide and is doubling down and escalating while you fuck about in photoshop for upvotes .

          I’m sorry, I’ll limp my crippled ass to Yemen and volunteer to murder civilians for the Houthis instead of posting a meme.

    • socsa@piefed.social
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      3 months ago

      The mind is boggled. Has the word genocide lost all meaning ?

      If it has then it’s largely your fault.

      • zante@lemmy.wtf
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        3 months ago

        Wel thanks very much but modesty prevents me from taking all the credit.

  • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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    3 months ago

    I just want to oppose Israeli genocide without saying that the “A Curse Upon The Jews” folks targeting random countries’ civilian shipping are kosher (ha) because they said they’re doing it for A Really Good Cause, Promise™, despite the utter lack of apparent effect on that cause, and dubious mechanisms for even its theoretical effect on that cause.

  • MataVatnik@lemmy.world
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    Ideology aside, as geopolitical players they do kinda fuck compared to their peers. Constantly underestimated.