Many years ago, I attended a Windows XP launch event. The Microsoft presenter had the perfect line to describe how MS views this:
“Why should you upgrade to Windows XP? Because we’re going to stop supporting Windows 98!”This was said completely unironically and with the expectation that people would just do what MS wanted them to do. That attitude hasn’t changed in the years since. Win 10 is going to be left behind. You will either upgrade or be vulnerable. Also, MS doesn’t care about the home users, they care about the businesses and the money to be had. And businesses will upgrade. They will invariably wait to the last minute and then scramble to get it done. But, whether because they actually give a shit about security or they have to comply with security frameworks (SOX, HIPAA, etc.), they will upgrade. Sure, they will insist on GPOs to disable 90% of the Ads and tracking shit, but they will upgrade.
Because we’re going to stop supporting Windows 98!
At least there was a technical reason there, that Microsoft was merging the two separate codebases for consumer Windows and enterprise Windows, and building on the better NT codebase than the 95->98->ME codebase.
And XP was actually way better for the main thing that we were going to be using computers for going forward: networked with the actual internet.
Windows 11? Can’t see any paradigm shift in how the operating system itself is supposed to work, at least not on anything that actually makes a difference in a favorable way.
Ya, in fairness to MS, Windows XP was a good release (post SP1, like most “good” MS releases). But, the fact is that MS is going to push the latest version, regardless of how ready it is for use. MS was hot for folks to switch to Windows ME. And holy fuck was that a terrible OS. MS also did everything short of bribery to get folks to switch to Vista (anyone remember Windows Mojave?). The “upgrade, or else” mantra has always been their way. Not that I blame them too much, it does need to happen. It just sucks when the reason for the new OS is more intrusive ads and user tracking.
I think you’re wrong. Microsoft won’t end support on a system over or around half the world’s pc’s run on.
They’re just pulling a scare tactic right now. Before the security end date of win 10 is up, they’ll announce continued support for another 2 years. They’re just trying to push 11 and right now they’re bluffing.
Imagine a company with the power to break half the worlds computers with a business decision.
If it does actually happen next year, I look forward to the probably 10% gain or better to Linux. Mint will probably get the lions share.
Businesses (at least the larger ones) replace their hardware every few years anyway. They don’t care whether their new Optiplexes run Windows 10 or 11 and most hardware bought since 2022 probably has Windows 11 installed already, probably all since 2020 supports it. So there’s hardly a problem here. (Btw I’m taking the management view here, I know that it’s a pain to actually deploy, but that doesn’t matter to management).
Yes your right. Users only care if their software can run. Most could care less what OS is running under the hood.
They should be required to release drivers such that massive e-waste wasn’t generated suddenly. I mean, why does the government allow a software company to own an monopolize the hardware? Hello Google! Good luck 🤞 with the monopoly assholes!
I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but which drivers do you have in mind? You can install Linux on almost any machine, and if there are driver issues the culprits are usually nvidia, realtek, etc. for which Microsoft is hardly responsible.
Oh my gosh 🤯 you are definitely not old enough. Microsoft has hardware by the balls because they own the eyeball markets at work. They can make a company that makes Ethernet cards for example change their API. It’s pretty simple to just end Linux by denying it hardware. So that’s why we must defend against that sort of monopoly which kept modems unobtainable to Linux for example. That was the great awakening, the modem wars.
I think that any operating system that mostly runs 3rd party software should be legally required to open-source at least the components necessary to run said 3rd party software. Also, OSes should just straight up not be allowed to show ads, full-stop. Making people buy hardware and then bloating the OS with ads in updates is a bait and switch and if our government had any balls, would be illegal.
Not to mention that we pay for the bandwidth they use to show us ads. Like WTF! Since when did NBC as people to chip in for them to show us McDonald’s commercials?
Not just the bandwidth, but RAM usage, energy consumption, and cache storage space. Ads cost us money.
Hits buzzer
The big windows 10 problem is that it updates to windows 11.
The big Windows 10 problem is that it is Windows.
Probably a lower adoption rate than Vista
That problem is that there isn’t a better version (not that it was peak in the first place anyway…)
Yeah it’s convincing people that Windows 11 is actually good
Well fuck Win 11, its a fucking downgrade. At Win 10 EOL I’m going back to linux.
You and the rest of Lemmy.
deleted by creator
It means I’m willing to put up with broken gpu drivers and wonky multidisplay setup rather than be on win11
There are dozens of us!
Practically speaking, 10 vs 11 barely makes a difference.
The ads, AI garbage and spyware do though.
It’s funny, people said the exact same thing about Windows 10. It had ads and spyware. It also had Cortana, the AI garbage of its time. Consumers will never learn. Can’t wait for Windows 12 to also be seen as the one where Microsoft has ruined Windows for real this time.
I hate 10. I’d rather have 7 again. It really sucks being forced to change OS when it’s a bad switch, sucks even worse when it’s because there’s no choice.
I remember the day I built my PC and realized the only Windows OS most new games would run on was 10. So much bloat and useless crap, so many intuitive features gone or moved to obtuse places.
Microsoft is really good at enshittifying things and has been for the last decade or so. If only it wasn’t about the money.
At the risk of being unpopular, I think a lot of what people perceive as unintuitive or worse in terms of settings and OS features is just change. I’m on Enterprise Windows 11 at work and I wouldn’t willingly go back to Windows 10.
I think because it’s Enterprise I’m dodging a lot of the worst of it - ads, telemetry, surprise updates, etc - but the unified settings are better once you learn them, tabbed File Explorer is better, dark mode switching is way better - there’s plenty to like.
I want to see the rise of the Linux desktop as much as anyone, but implying Windows 11 is all bad isn’t that fair an assessment.
Change is a big part of it certainly but the fact that Windows is coming dangerously close to only functioning online to serve you as many ads as possible and to extract more and more of your personal data to sell all the while owning a once not for profit AI company gives such megacorp vibes.
I’m really not going to be happy about being forced to switch because a high end pc built years ago is suddenly “outdated”.
By no means is it Ultra 4K HD compatible but it can still run anything AAA just fine. There’s no excuse for what Microsoft is doing in my eyes.
Agree with all of those points, I just don’t love the reductive notion that every change is a bad change and nothing’s been for the better. In several ways it’s a better OS - but as you say, they are also getting more contemptuous of the end user with things like privacy, anticompetitivity, and ads.
I take issue with the settings menu still relying on the old menus while having shuffled things around so I’m forced to look for settings. I don’t really bother with tabbed file explorer because it doesn’t bother saving my last open folders. I can’t speak to dark mode.
I can say that the start menu is horrendously slow, it can take up to 5 seconds for it to load. Sometimes keystrokes disappear in the start menu only to magically appear some time later. They made the right click menu worse and only changeable in regedit. They made RDP credentials only saveable using CMD. They removed vertical taskbars. There are a lot of issues in going to windows 11 for me.
I’m sure there are some improvements but at work we have a wiki page on how to unfuck up windows 11 so it works how you expect it to.
Good list! We differ on some of them…
I take issue with the settings menu still relying on the old menus while having shuffled things around so I’m forced to look for settings
This is still an issue, but I feel it’s diminishing as they (annoyingly slowly) do move all of the functionality to the new app. It was much worse in Windows 10, I think.
I can say that the start menu is horrendously slow, it can take up to 5 seconds for it to load.
“Works on my machine” is a profoundly unhelpful answer for me to give, but I’m fortunate enough not to have experienced this. If you’re looking for a workaround and don’t mind a further Microsoft app, the launcher in Powertoys is pretty solid.
Sometimes keystrokes disappear in the start menu only to magically appear some time later.
God, I hate the search from the start menu - but I would say that it’s been profoundly broken since Windows 8 and is marginally better in Windows 11.
They made the right click menu worse and only changeable in regedit.
100% agreed. I do think Windows 10 and earlier had a growing issue with the context menus getting unwieldy (Visual Studio is a great demo of how this can get really out of hand) but the solution Windows 11 have brought is annoying more than useful. I suspect at one point I made the registry change and forgot about it, because I’m back to a big Win10-style list.
They made RDP credentials only saveable using CMD.
Agreed again. That said, you’re a masochist if you’re not using an RDP manager like mRemoteNG! I wish Microsoft had a decent RDP app that wasn’t tied into Azure.
They removed vertical taskbars.
I found vertical taskbars incompatible with hotdesking on desks with different monitor configurations, but I do agree this one sucks.
how to unfuck up windows 11 so it works how you expect it to.
I think “how you expect it to” goes to the core of my point - needing to adapt to change isn’t inherently bad. But I’m not pretending Windows 11 is a wholesale improvement, and I do concede many of your arguments.
Microsoft did ruin Windows with Windows 8, then they made it even worse with Windows 10 and now they’re making it even fucking worse with 11. Windows 7 was the golden age of Windows.
I mean, they could solve it by not making the mandatory successor an ad-laden, AI-infested, personal data harvesting, privacy-nightmare shit show. That would be a start. And also relax whatever the artificial requirement is that makes a lot of Win10 machines incompatible with 11.
Windows 10 is already an ad-laden, AI-infested, personal data harvesting, privacy-nightmare shit show. The problem with 11 is the ridiculous hardware requirements.
Windows 10 is trash and has always been. Windows 7 was the last good Windows, and I would still use it if it had security updates and DX12 support (I obviously mainly use Linux, but my gaming PC is on Windows, and no, some games I play and software I use 100% do not work on Linux).
Probably is. I use Linux for everything and only use Win10 at work on a VM with enterprise/LTSB version, so I’ve been shielded from most of its enshittification.
Having used both, doesn’t 11 have the same level of ads as 10 did? It seems like it’s really only OneDrive ads if you don’t use it if anything?
Maybe? I just said in another comment that I am pretty much exclusively Linux. I only occasionally use a W10 VM at work, and it’s enterprise/LTSB so I don’t get a lot of that junk.
100 point top thread based on the second and third hand opinions of a Windows non-user really sums up the quality of this discussion lol
Most Windows-hating threads on Lemmy in a nutshell tbh.
Every thread on lemmy is a windows hating thread by default :D
I’ve lost count of the amount of posts and comment threads on here about “all the horrible ads and spyware” where the solution was to flip literally a single switch in Settings, Personalization.
Nope, they wont. Micro$oft only cares money rather than basic OS for everyday and professional tasks
They’ve been adding spyware and ads into W10 so it’s not the money. They could easily add all W11 ads/spyware into 10 with an update. Older CPUs have several hardware vulnerabilities unrelated to the TPU required by W11.
IMO, they should add a startup message listing the hardware vulnerabilities of the installed CPU and leave it up to the customer.
Windows 11 has more spyware and its more ens***tificated
Yes but that could be added in a W10 update just like they’ve already done with previous W10 updates.
You can bypass the requirements since yeah, they were always artificial. I believe Rufus has an option when creating Win11 install USBs to remove the TPM and other requirements.
But then again, it’s nice, because all I need to make sure Microsoft doesn’t secretly update my Win10 machine in the night to Win11 is to turn off the TPM in the BIOS.
You can bypass the requirements since yeah, they were always artificial.
I think bypassing these checks would eventually render your PC vulnerable? for example, bitlocker support being void for computers that relies on TPM 2.0
There is no home-user need to run bitlocker. There’s dozens of alternatives, that do not rely on TPM, that are just as effective, and that you really should be using anyways since they aren’t controlled by M$.
I see, thanks
If you need encryption, veracrypt probably still works.
But then you won’t receive any updates if you use unsupported hardware to run Win 11
Well, not gonna get updates on 10 either, so is same-same
Rufus has that option, I’ve used it myself to update to Win11 because I didn’t have a motherboard with TPM at the time.
Also wanna mention, the reason I updated was mostly because I thought Win10 was kinda ugly and I think Win11 was a huge update in that regard and also because of security reasons, since Win10 won’t receive any more updates in the near future. At the end of the day, I can count on one hand how often I boot Windows in a year (I almost exclusively use Linux), so I don’t really care about all the Win11 bullshit anyway.You can bypass the requirements
Not all of them. Windows 11 stopped booting with Update 24H2 on CPUs that don’t support the Instruction POPCNT. But that’s only an issue for really old CPUs like Intel Core 2 Duo and AMD Athlon 64 X2
For a bit more context than “really old”: I had an Intel Core 2 Duo in 2009.
Another angle: Those were some of the first dual-core x86 processors, released 2006 and 2005 respectively. (Intel had the Pentium D as its first in 2005).
I don’t remember which I had for sure. I’m leaning more towards Core 2 Duo. It was my first PC, I was 12 and built it with my father.
I also got my first computer around then. I saved up for ages and bought the first gen Intel MacBook with an Intel Core Duo (2 cores, no hyperthreading). I still have that laptop somewhere… It blew my mind it could run Windows, and Windows laptops couldn’t compare at the time.
Windows 11 = O.S. Ima Ad-Laden. Coincidence? I think not…
Lots of people moving to Linux over Win11 anyway.
A lot do myself included. But not enough to matter. Most ordinary Windows users don’t even know what Linux is or understand why they should care.
Exactly - not enough to matter so not a lot.
Enthusiasts willing to get out of their comfort zone in whatever topic we choose are rare like kryptonite. The fact that you know 10 people, or a 1000 is by no means a lot considering the number of PC users.
Yeah, right. 🙄
Three years ago, I bought my wife a laptop with Windows 10 to replace her 10yo windows 7 machine.
It had hardware issues out of the box, and went in on two repairs. It works fine now, AFAIK.
But, she still doesn’t trust it, and she doesn’t think that she can move her Adobe CS6 license over to it…
I even bought her the affinity suite.
I’m starting to think she’ll never move on from Windows 7.
I think the major browsers stopped supporting it sometime during the last year, so my best hope is that some included certificates will eventually make her favourite websites stop working. That has to force her over to something more recent… right?
I use arch, btw.
up vote for arch.
I also use arch btw.
Me too
https://github.com/win32ss/supermium
Here is a relatively up to date Chromium fork that supports Windows XP and newer (I am not affiliated with the project btw)
I’ll keep that secret from her 😅
If Linux didn’t exist, we would actually end up with a lot of e-waste, and I mean a fuck ton of it. And it’s all thanks to you, Microsoft.
Hell, Linux does exist, and people just don’t wanna use it because they’re so used to Windows that anything else is basically as steep of a learning curve as a literal cliff. And to those people I say: “just add some mint on it and life will be easy. Maybe even drizzle some cinnamon on it as well”
Linux is in a weird spot, there is a valley you must not be in with it.
If you are a non-technical person who needs only a browser and solitaire, it’s perfect.
If you are a highly technical person, it’s great.
If you’re just in between, you are fucked.
Trying to get games to run without being a Linux pro is much harder than I was led to believe. Some games just work out of the box, but a lot of them absolutely do NOT, even if protondb says they will.
The Steam Deck is trying to make Linux gaming more hassle-free, but it’s not like we’ve reached that stage yet. Still, we’re taking steps.
I have high hopes for the future. It’s just not quite there yet.
I have also encountered games that needed tweaking (like changing settings in an .ini file that weren’t visible in the game’s menu) to run in an acceptable way on windows. Does this mean that Windows is ‘not quite there yet’, or is the game to blame?
Sure, but it’s not impossible to play any Blizzard games because the launcher login page is broken like it is on Linux. Blaming the game will only get you so far when so many games just don’t work and devs don’t care.
i do not agree with that sentiment. i’m an avid gamer, and in the last few weeks since switching to nobara i only found 1 obscure game that didn’t work, and 2 that needed an entry in the preferences of the game in steam. using heroic launcher for all amazon/epic/gog games and lutris for my piracy tryouts (would work in heroic too, but it’s cleaner that way)
but i must admit that the experience is smoother in windows; i miss my playnite launcher which integrated everything from steam to other stores, pirated games and all emulation needs.
I guess dual-booting is still a necessity for some of us, unless you have a single hard drive and your Windows installation decides to randomly break.
Maybe I’m just really unlucky when it comes to liking games that don’t work on Linux.
that might be. i am a pure single-player (with a bit of local coop mixed in) player, and i prefer roguelites, VNs with actual gaming elements and FPS / “Immersive Sim”-Style games, and currently the Vampire Survivor category with Yet another Zombie Survival and Halls of Torment. I try out a lot of games (If theres a Fitgirl or DODI release of it and even somewhere in my ballpark i’ll test it).
Most issues i have stem from modding games without Workshop support, using external Mod Managers like Vortex sucks on Linux.
Started using linux mint 22 since 2 months great experience. Difficult with some software with wine winetricks and bottles and stuff. I’m not in any tech field. Learnt from YouTube. Still more to learn… But it’s fun to figuring things out and chatgpt
I’m a recent Mint user as well. The transition felt pretty seamless so far.
I’ve installed Linux mint cinnamon on some PCs for other people. It’s okay. I still run into errors and difficulties but for your average non techie person it might work if someone else gets them started.
That alone is a great introduction to Linux.
I’d guess that major UI revisions are a big reason for average users. People don’t like having to relearn how to do something or find a setting. If M$ implemented a legacy UI setting that by and large mimicked the interface and controls in W10 they’d clear a major hurdle preventing less technologically inclined users from upgrading.
My guess is that the average user doesn’t care at all and just clicks away update notifications because they are annoyed by them
The only reason I’m on 10 with my main pc is because the 7th gen intel in there isn’t compatible with win11. I have another pc that is 7th gen, which I put windows 11 on and there is just something weird about it. When I do anything on that machine it doesn’t do it immediately, it sits for a few seconds before actions are done. Really aggravating. Clicking on a program on the taskbar takes a few seconds before it opens. File explorer, firefox browser, settings pane, … Once programs are running it’s fine to use said programs, but I wonder what they did to make it feel this way.
I have Linux on both machines as primary OS and they are super snappy, it’s not the hardware.
How much RAM do the systems have? 8gb? The delay may be in the system making room in ram for the program. Win11 is so ram hungry. It’s stupid.
They both have 16GB RAM.
The one with Windows 10 has a i5 7600k and GTX1060
The one with Windows 11 has a i7 7700k and GTX1080
Both with nvme ssd storage samsung evo (cant remember which exactly). The 7600k machine even has hdds and ssds via sata extra.
I had Windows 10 on an older (but not ancient) machine and it was literally unusable. 10-15 minute boot time and another 5 or so just to get a browser to open. The misery didn’t end once things were open; everything was still slower than when I had windows 7 on what would now be considered a truly ancient machine. I put Linux on it and experienced a roughly 5x speedup.
Microsoft has a Windows 11 problem. Staying on Windows 10 is a symptom.
7 to 10 all over again
I love how you’re totally ignoring 8 existed.
Skip every other version
They only care money. Not their users (expect buisness users who stuck M$'s walled garden and pour millions, if not billions to it).
I stopped following 11 news after they cancelled the native android framework, only thing that got me excited since a BlueStacks installation gets huge extremely fast, I’m not going.
