Captain America is a weird one to include. Not denying it’s propaganda, everything is, but throwing Cap in with copaganda is such a surface level take. He’s propaganda for American exceptionalism sure, but also embodies it in an old school New Deal way. The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
Imo Iron Man is the much more harmful propaganda. You can pretty much draw a direct line between the characters rise in popularity thanks to the MCU and the rise of Elon Musk.
Kind of what the whole thing in civil war was. Tony was looking to absolve his guilt over the people they failed to save while looking for more and more authoritarian methods of keeping the world “safe”.
Cap was much more for freedom and while the idea that the avengers should have absolutely no oversight is absurd, the question of who should be the oversight was important and much of what the avengers did could not wait on a committee to decide to act (also, the last time a committee did act they decided to nuke New York)
Any superhero movie is problematic. They all say that only a few special people can save the country and the world. The rest of the population just has to hold tight and let the important people do their thing. It’s just a small step by replacing powers with wealth to give the rich carte blanche to do as they please.
I wonder if that’s a limit of storytelling. Grand social change is hard to film. Even team effort cohesion requires a lot of actors and writing to pull off.
No matter how sound the morals and story, if it’s not entertaining, it might fail as mass media.
A little bit of that, a little bit of plain ol power fantasy.
One of the hallmarks of early Spielberg was the ability to have a group all talking at once and it sounding natural. Like the City Council Meeting in Jaws is a great example of fictional social change in a film setting that includes a lot of townsfolk in the story.
Not to mention that a lot of those special people are born better
Not those scenes in Spider-Man where New York throws random objects at the villain until they relent. Hell yeah solidarity.
Ghostbusters II the Ghostbusters would have failed if it wasn’t for New Yorkers spreading positive vibes.
Your love, keeps lifting me higher!
Thanks for putting this into words. I’ve had a vague discontent and disgruntlement with superhero crap for a long time. While this isn’t the only reason I dislike superhero movies, this is a big part of it.
I do still like The Punisher movie with Jain, Dredd, The Crow, and a few others. Antiheros in general. They’re also more human and not as one dimensional.
Oh I agree completely. There is a fascist aspect inherent to Superheroes. Cap is just one lf the less egregious ones.
I mean, I’ve definitely seen Cap used to represent the Ugly American in comics, especially during that period post-9/11.
He’s definitely not fully anti-fascist coded, because he represents the US, and the US while ostensibly being democratic, is in many ways deeply fascist and always has been. Hitler was inspired by our Jim Crow laws.
There’s some smart people who understand that America never actually stood for any of that stuff and they write Cap to be the same.
Is that Ultimate Cap or 616 Cap? Ultimate Cap was an asshole – even that universe’s Aunt May called him out on his BS after Peter died.
I’m not a big Marvel fan, I just know I’ve seen lots of examples. Makes sense that they would be alternate universe Caps, tho. That’s a great way to be able to write the character and show the dark side of US politics without necessarily marring the original character himself. However, to outsiders, there’s not really a difference between the two, because they’re not deep in nerd lore.
He’s still playing world police.
It’s deeper than that. It’s about defense of the Status Quo. No superhero looks around at the parts of society that we just accept without thinking about and says this needs to change.
And much of the crime fighting is blue collar crime. On general the superheroes don’t touch white collar criminals.
Are ther shows and movies about regular people banding together to do good? Fiction or non-fiction
Elon was literally in 2 at the Grand Prix
People kept calling Musk – Stark because they thought he was a scientist/genius. Like the MCU fake tech was gonna be birthed out of this immature edge lord that steals people’s idea with stolen money.
Yeah I kinda disagree with Cap as well. He also explicitly refutes the government to stand up what he believes is right in Civil War too.
Yep. If cops had the ethics / morals of cap we’d have zero issues with the police.
Fuck America and its Captain. All MCU shit is propaganda to brainwash yanks to believe in their inherent goodness and exceptionalism.
Bro went thermonuclear with this take
You don’t think a character named Captain America is meant to make Americans believe they are exceptional and good?
The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
What was he doing during the Cold War?
I think part of it’s that not all propaganda is bad.
There’s probably a term for it, but I’d draw a distinction between “opinion” propaganda and “aspirational” propaganda.
One tries to change your opinion of something, like “cops are good noble and always do the right thing”.
The other encourages the viewer to live up to some ideal. It’s entirely possible for that ideal to also not be great, but even then “I should be” is better than “they are”.A lot of PSAs and things from the ad council fall in the later category. Like the billboards that basically say “real men are present and emotionally available fathers to their children” or "good parents teach their kids healthy diet and exercise by example”.
They’re openly cases of the government trying to change public opinions or attitudes (which arguably makes them better examples of propaganda than a lot of commercial television), but they don’t feel as objectionable.“This honest and kind man who always tries to do good and help those around him to the point that it overshadows him being a physically perfect human is the embodiment of the emblematic American man” is more in that aspirational category.
“Propaganda” comes from “propagate”, so the word inherently isn’t bad. The suffix “anda” basically means “thing of”, so in a literal sense, “propaganda” is any “object of propagation”, although this reading of etymology isn’t widely circulated.
Propaganda is thus inherently a very all-encompassing term. Any poster, flyer or brochure is propaganda, whether it advertizes a product, service, lost cat, or wants you to join the army. Anything “mass media” is propaganda. Anything spreading “a message” that is meant for wider propagation, regardless of the message content is propaganda.
At least that’s according to my rudimentary knowledge of high school latin. There’s the more “mainstream”, “official” etymology on Wiktionary: the word was first used in the name of an old Catholic Church department from Latin times for “spreading the faith”, so that’s where the more loaded use and connotation comes from. However, I doubt that this department name is the first ever use of the ablative feminine gerund form of the verb propagate. That’s like saying the first use of the term “World health” is in the name World Health Orgsnization. If anything, someone had to discuss the name beforehand.
So, there’s this Overton window-esque aspect to the word.
Wikipedia has a good overview of propaganda, although it is itself loaded onto the “must be loaded (i.e. what you called ‘bad’ propaganda)” definition of propaganda. And they like usibn the word “loaded” a lot.
He’s propaganda for American exceptionalism sure, but also embodies it in an old school New Deal way. The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
Pretending that America isn’t only already fascist, but inspired the fascists they are supposedly against is American exceptionalism, and you’re eating it right up.
I have a Flag Smashers shirt… go figure, they speak to me.
I was putting it on a couple days ago and I paused and thought about it, and suddenly realized the immensity of the propaganda - the great Captain America destroying the evil socialists who think resources should be shared by everyone, and that nationalism is a barrier to truly having ‘one human family’.
Blew my mind it took me this long. Also made me wonder if they were dug up from long ago comics when America was openly and blatantly monitoring and persecuting socialists and communists (specifically picturing the scenarios and time illustrated in Oppenheimer). Haven’t had a chance to dig in to that part yet, but I will right now!
I didn’t know those were a comic thing. The Flag Smashers were so bad and stupid I buried them in my memory. I saw them less as a political group and more as delusional extremists mad their economic situation went in the toilet because people who were dead suddenly weren’t. Killed children over “borders bad”. Boy do I hate that part of the show.
Everything is propaganda if it changes your view of something
Pretty much spot on, though that is the exact point of these kinds of shows.
It was part of a wave of shows launched to counter the media perception of incompetence in law enforcement/prosecution. They pushed a bunch of dangerously misleading (or even outright fake) claims such as the reliability and accuracy of forensic evidence which has been later used in actual court cases to imprison innocent people.
As always, Citations needed has done a brilliant job on this kind of stuff that’s worth a listen.
If people are quoting tv as facts in the court room that’s a different level of anti science that I’m not prepared to accept.
How dumb can a society be that people with college degree and doing something for a living can’t sort out fact from fiction? And I’m not talking one lawyer, I’m talking both sides of the bench AND judge.
Doesn’t even need to change your mind.
I knew it, glasses are propaganda
That’s too much of a generalization. Propaganda is far more specific.
Copaganda
Crazy how much of this stuff is subsidized by or directly financed by the national security state. The most infamous, in my memory anyway, was the Transformers Franchise which got enormous access to US military staff and equipment during the shooting. The end result was a movie that felt more like one of those hookey 80s “Join the Marines” ads than a piece of action cinema.
I kinda get it though…it’s not like these armed forces are producing the movie themselves.
The studio wants to make a movie about/involving these entities. They want it to be as realistic as possible and the entity itself has the authority to give them access that it could also deny.
If you’re in charge of, say, the Marines PR department, you’re constantly trying to make the Corps look good and boost recruitment. If you can do this for next to nothing against your budget by granting access to a studio making a film that will give you essentially free PR, that’s a great move. The bigger the movies potential, the more the entity in question is motivated to support it.
On the other hand, if the film is going to make your organization look bad, no PR person with a functioning brain is going to help that project in any way.
Idunno, I feel like these organizations do enough actually bad things, that I don’t feel the urge to crucify them for cultivating image and working to generate positive PR.
Legally, access to government resources shouldn’t depend on how you portray the government
Legally it’s totally okay, actually.
I know this is all very unpopular opinion here on Lemmy, but it’s fact.
The studio wants to make a movie about/involving these entities.
Studios want cheap special effects budgets and the MIC wants cheap labor. So you get what amounts to a promotional video for branches of the service, paid for out of the operating budgets of these agencies.
Idunno, I feel like these organizations do enough actually bad things, that I don’t feel the urge to crucify them for cultivating image and working to generate positive PR.
I think a big part of the “doing bad things” process is facilitated by whitewashing our activities in Kandahar or Fallujah with “We’re just cool dudes fighting big monsters” action movie propaganda. Is Transformers as egregious as Rambo II or American Sniper? Not strictly. But its geared towards a younger audience, so it can’t do the same kind of blood-drenched jingoism in that way.
I would consider gulling 12-year-olds into aspiring to become conscript killers for the oil & gas industry overseas pretty fucking bad, though.
At least the newer Transformers films are better in that regard, with the latest film not having anything to do with it. Then again I heard they are doing a Transformers x GI Joe film.
Double Woof.
But yes, a lot of this just comes down to who will pay to finance the film. If Raytheon or the US Marines is willing to pick up a big chunk of the production costs, you’re going to keep seeing them in the producer credits and “Special Thanks To” sections.
“But they’re just TV shows” “it’s not that deep” etc. I would implore you to listen to this excellent episode of Citations Needed..
It covers how modern cop shows were invented directly to counter shows that portrayed defence lawyers as the protagonists, along with a general push to lionize the police state despite its inability to prevent crime or deliver real justice.
Removed by mod
Is grammar police also ACAB? Lol
I would say we peaked copaganda when Sonic 3 had the GUN general guy be a good guy. GUN was never Sonic’s friend. They didnt even play City Escape in that movie. 5/10.
Weird but not that out of the ordinary. Watched the previous two movies before seeing 3 and that general is one odd fellow.
True, but GUN in general is just shown as a really incompetent group. The weird general could have been the only one preventing them from going full antagonist against sonic.
That dude was incompetent himself as evidenced by the previous movies. Highly doubt.
They fucked up by not just dropping the beginning to SA2:B in there. But the government can’t be the bad guy right now or you face Oranginum’s Dementia Wrath.
The cop dramas are often like modern fantasy to me. There’s different classes and quests. It doesn’t reflect real life.
We’re more aware of it now. Cop shows have always been about cops willing to break the rules, and they are made the heroes. This gave a whole generation an excuse to look at dirty cops as heroes doing what they needed to do
‘00s pop culture fucking sucked
Calling it culture is an insult to the intelligence of the American people
They’re gonna do it more, now that you said that.
Well there is definitely no shortage of disrespect for the avg Americans’ intelligence.
blue bloods is the most offensive one
It’s a shame the show is such a good concept. I loved watching what was essentially an every day look into this police dynasty but boy did it get unbearably boot licky over time. The old man telling his stories of how he used to not give a fuck as an old cop from the 60s was always funny (and explains how the family has always been this “privileged” strata).
there’s a world where better writers make something better with it. as it stands it’s either overtly racist, or as tone deaf as saying “i don’t see color”
My ex really liked that show, mostly the main guy. Could you elaborate a bit, e.g. plot, characters etc, if it’s no trouble?
I really hated that episode of Skip Intro’s copaganda because it was just so well argued… it’s a really good episode but man does it get my blood boiling!
New kid on the block always flew off the handle and went with his gut feeling. He was constantly using excessive force and beating up suspects. Even when it seemed like he went to far they would ultimately find out that whoever he beat up was a “piece of shit criminal” and they deserved it. The sister who was a DA and tried to get them to follow the rules was played as a bleeding heart liberal, and would get herself or others in trouble from being too soft on crime. She was also portrayed as a “ball busting bitch” with a chip on her shoulder. Grandpa was a racist fuck that everyone justified as that’s just grandpa, he’s from a different time.
Was your impression that the DA sister was a liberal? She was always doing her part to put people in jail, just didn’t tolerate the police cutting corners. She always put her family first as well, corrupt as hell.
She was what conservatives think bleeding hearts are. Also liberals put people in jail all of the time, look at Kamala’s history.
I wouldn’t call Kamala a liberal either. The actual liberal in the show seemed to the DA’s daughter.
it’s a show that hits all the usual conservative copaganda talking points. cops are good. bad guys are bad. innocent people will be fine as long as they comply. then consider how often a “good” character is white and a “bad” character is black, and a disconcerting pattern starts to arise. the show is outright cop apologia
I vaguely remember being somewhat shocked at what Chicago PD has the “good guys” do and justifying it.
yeah Chicago PD is also notably gross, especially when you consider how much real life violence occurs in the city as a direct result of police antagonism.
Honestly I’m more offended people made a big deal about COPS! getting cancelled only to be replaced with Live PD, which doesn’t have a team filming them but rather just works off all the body camera footage. Worse than COPS ever was.
“Live” pd had a camera crew, they also use dash cam and body cam footage. That’s kind of the point of the “live” pd name, a crew following and filming them for the majority of it. They did use a delay and would clearly end or cutaway from stuff but its successor on patrol “live” has definitely shown police doing dumb shit and has caused some departments to pull out of being on the show.
There’s other shows and I forgot the name that would just do re-enactments of calls and responses and some that only use body cam / dash cam footage.
Thanks for the clearer details. I would never actually willingly watch such drivel, so I do appreciate being corrected on that.
I definitely understand anyone who won’t watch it and I won’t cry when it goes off the air. It’s a guilty pleasure of mine because one of the areas that’s commonly on it is near where I used to work as a firefighter. So it’s kinda neat seeing some of the ppl I used to interact with in a negative or positive light 🤷
That’s fair, I actually heard that they recently started doing my first college’s town regularly, and it made me wonder about some folks I used to know there.
You can enjoy TV shows and movies while knowing ACAB is the truth.
ACAB is false though? At least it’s a one-dimensional analysis of reality.
At least it’s a one-dimensional analysis of reality.
This is a non thought. Meaningless drivel.
Even if you know it, they still worm their way into your head as surely as Barry Manilow’s TV commercial jingles.
For me now I think of it like a marvel movie.
This cop not shooting anyone is just like a man with superpowers swinging through the city on sci fi ropes.
It’s nice to imagine.
Really depends. Cops shows are really off putting to me. Marvel is kinda OK; not a fan, but it’s so over the top that I can abstract from the propaganda.
thats where it gets ya if you are not keen eyed for their tricks
You forgot ncis
Needs NCIS
Stuff I like is different! It’s NoT HyPoCrISy!
SVU gets a pass for being AWESOME
