In an unexpected mask off “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇
Always try to provide:
-Server location (jurisdiction)
-Governance
-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency
-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)
-Pricing and links
If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.
#ProtonExodus
Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116
Edit:typo
Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.
The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he’s not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.
There’s nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:
- Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
- Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true, unfortunately - the working classes swung to Trump in the recent election while the Democrats are fast becoming a party of high-earning elites (which is why they lost)
- Saying that the antitrust actions began under Trump I is, well, true
Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It’s controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.
PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it’s not true that “Proton took the stance” of anything. It’s the personal opinion of the CEO that’s at issue. It’s a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
PPS: to be extra clear, my comments are about the post above, not stuff that people are reading elsewhere. But the substance stands. See discussion for detail.
Not American, but there is this regarding the third point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/comment/m7b1wib/
Any thoughts here?
To me this whole demonizing proton ceo thing seems a bit overblown. Sucking up is actually pathetic and funny
If you’ve got an argument, make it.
Well the reddit comment says completely opposite of what you said - that trump didn’t really increase / start with antitrust, but rather did the opposite.
Well it’s either true or it’s not. Did you bother looking it up to check?
Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true
No, no it isn’t arguably true. It’s just flat out incorrect. 100% of people could vote for him or others like him out of fear of disappearing in the night if they don’t. That doesn’t make him or the party “for the little guy”.
It doesn’t matter that 51% of the country votes for the Republicans. The party has consistently shit all over “the little guy” and made him eat it for over 40 years, telling him he’s eating shit and then said only the party can fix it.
All the while the party’s been giving tax money to their friends and saying “don’t worry, we’re here now. you can feed him as much shit as you want. we’ll find someone cleaning up shit and make the “little guy” think that person was making it instead. that way when you get caught doing it no one will believe it”
Nailed it, Americans get so offended and divided on these issues that they just throw reason and logic out the window
You are extremely ignorant. We have people marching through the streets with police protection chanting ‘Jews will not replace us".
That sounds like throwing reason and logic out the window, what’s the context?
“People are being openly hateful to groups of people for no reason.”
“Umm context???”
Imagine getting offended by someone asking for more details
I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.
deleted by creator
You have to look at their comments/replies or whatever. Someone above already posted the link.
Sorry, their comment hadn’t been posted when i loaded the thread. Much obliged.
No worries!
Significant if true. But still. Proton has a great product and a lot of stored-up goodwill. I think the reasonable thing to do here is to wait and see, and to judge them on actions before words.
I’m not jumping ship yet and am waiting to see what, if anything, happens from here. Maybe it comes out that the same person has access to that official Mastadon account and echoed their opinion there… and maybe it comes out that his comments/actions are disavowed by the rest of the organization.
I’ll wait and see. But it’s not a great start.
Fair enough. But this whole drama is still completely substance-free. The air of US-style thought-policing bothers me.
Link to Mastodon thread: https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Just puked a little after reading that.
Here’s what I don’t get: if the leadership at Proton believes this shit, why share it on social media at all? It clearly isn’t going to make anyone in the left happy. Are they trying to capture porn-loving MAGA?
Appeasement to the fascists so they don’t get banned like they did to tiktok (I assume)
Can you screenshot it? The link doesn’t load
Looks like they deleted it. @[email protected] posted these archive links above:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Archives in case they delete it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Text copy of their post:
Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.
Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.
At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.
By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side. The republicans suck and are only going after tech until tech bows down to them (like zuck has been doing) but the post isn’t really outrageous or worse than the first tweet
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side.
Are you trying to argue that R is less entrenched with rich oligarchs and corporate money than the Dems? Because I musk object if so.
No I’m saying Dems moved to the right and aren’t representing the people who historically have voted for them because they’re chasing the corporate donors and right wingers
Republicans have always been worst and still are.
No I’m saying Dems moved to the right and aren’t representing the people who historically have voted for them because they’re chasing the corporate donors and right wingers
Well on this specific detail we agree entirely!
Right? So much of this seems like people not able to tell if actions are good or bad independent of who takes the action. There’s no way their team could ever do anything bad, and anything done by the other team is automatically bad.
God forbid you try to reinforce a rare good behavior from someone who’s also done a lot of horrendous things.
Looks like backing up the post was a good call.
As a non-American I don’t normally care about US politics or what “literally half of America” think but I am concerned with far-right politics spilling over in to my country. So I would naturally want to resist organisations aligning themselves with those politics, whether they are scandalous to Americans or not.
Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
While true in some scenarios, in anti-trust Lina khan’s ftc has done significantly more than trump ever did. Biden keeping her over the protest of countless business execs and daily articles in the wall street journal on how she’s ruining America shows some commitment to prosecuting big tech.
Meanwhile, trump’s anti-trust moves were mostly based off petty issues he had with the ceos or the platforms having a “liberal bias”. Now that every big tech ceo has fallen in line and given him $1 million for his inauguration I doubt we’ll see much movement on that front.
Completely agree on all that.
YOU POSTED the comment they are rebutting. And your reply to the rebuttal of your own comment is “completely agree?”
From what I remember pre-election news was saying wealthy dems/dem donors wanted Biden (and Kamala in some report I saw) gone primarily because they didn’t like what Lina Khan was doing. There were also questions about whether Kamala would continue to support Lina Khan after receiving donations from wealthy donors. JD Vance praised her work and it sounds like the Trump nomination is going to continue similarly.
I don’t like Trump at all and I know how petty and sycophantic he can be, but this may end up being one case where I end up preferring the result on this one specific issue over what we may have had if the dems had won without Kamala or if she flipped and agreed to drop Khan. I won’t really know how I feel about this selection until I see the result.
(Quick search turned these examples up that I’ve only skimmed, but I need to log off: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/24/kamala-harris-lina-khan-00185345 https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/kamala-harris-rich-donors-lina-khan/)
There’s no fucking way they let her go on.
I’m ready to eat my words, but I expect her to disappear, or be limited to companies which did not fall in line to Musk/Trump.
The entire shtick of the next admin is deregulation, antitrust will not be welcome.
I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.
This isn’t a “CEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.
I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.
Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?
Both parties are the big business parties. Big business is “donating” (bribing) Trump now like all big businesses have done to both parties since citizens united passed.
Their bullet points are spin-doctoring.
Also the comment got a few dozen upvotes almost immediately. Suspicious.
I was thinking the same thing. In all the threads about it. It just seemed oddly suspicious and not typical of what the digital privacy community has typically believed… I mean, I’m also not going to homogenize a community like that though and Proton has been a mainstay.
This is all over the place.
My comment concerns the post above. OP cites a tweet and states a falsehood about it. No, “Proton” did not “take the stance” of anything in that tweet. Yes, Andy Yen is the CEO. Yes, that tweet is in his name and not in the name of Proton. I was not responding to other things that you’ve seen elsewhere.
Now, as for those other things elsewhere, I stick by the substance of my point. Sure, it’s more of a problem that dumb things are being said in the name of Proton rather than just it’s CEO. But look at the detail of those things. There is nothing scandalous. People are getting their underwear in a twist about extremely common opinions being expressed on Twitter. Personally I don’t care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton’s product or what makes it better than others. This is just another typically American culture-war drama. It’s boring.
This is all over the place.
If you click the link in this post it takes you to a mastodon comment from the official Proton account stating exactly the same beliefs as this board member. If that isn’t in the name of Proton what is?
People ARE looking at the details of this. If this company starts cozying up to an alt-right “dictator for a day” government then when/where does this stop? There’s nuance beyond just Proton and Andy said something scandalous here. It’s layers of political issues that spell a privacy focused company having an inability to actually keep the government out of my shit.
Culture war would be if they took a stance on DEI. This is political and has actual consequences.
Why are you trying to defend a fucking corporation? When has a company ever not become evil as they look to grow? It’s just the nature of the beast. The people here, and the OP specifically, have called out Proton is over for them. They’re not saying you should do the same. Just that they’re going to take a step back and others expressing they’ll join.
correct
Personally I don’t care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton’s product or what makes it better than others.
I won’t have a friend who supports Trump, because to do so is to support a regressive, bigoted, jackbooted view of the world and how things should be done. I don’t speak to my Trump supporting family members except when family situations force us to.
WHY ON EARTH would I trust my privacy to a company whose entire board supports that view, much less their CEO?
I tend to agree. Don’t blow this out of proportion. If you dig deep enough, you will not like the CEO of ANY company… so don’t let some comments from the CEO of Proton get you worked up.
The privacy community is always told to verify, not trust. The board of Proton have decided to publicly state something that leads a lot of people to be unable to trust them - namely supporting the choices of an extreme right wing leader who has repeatedly demonstrated the foolishness of trusting anything he says or does.
This CEO is totally free to have their own thoughts but its verging on the ridiculous to think that other people aren’t going to have a negative reaction to them and seek alternatives. Its next to impossible to trust a company that express approval of Trump decisions because its impossible to trust Trump. And Proton going out of their way to publicly state their approval when they are not even a US org and would’ve lost nothing by simply not saying anything suggests a board that was keen to publicly express support for Trump. It inevitably makes people who are already on the receiving end of Trumpian hate legislation, or who soon will be, wonder what else Proton might be willing to do for Trump in the future.
OP is responding to a public post and rationalizing why it’s a red line for them. How is that “disinformation”?
Did he defend the whole party? I thought he just said they picked someone who is going to so one good thing
Which is true.
OP is peddling misinformation because it’s not true that “Proton took the stance” of anything.
Except Proton’s official Mastodon account made another post afterwords doubling down on the CEO’s comments. They ended up taking down the post due to getting a ton of backlash
Their official reddit account also tripled down by saying “here is our official response” (and then quoting the Mastodon post). So they’ve explicitly made it the company’s view - not just the CEO’s view.
I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
Ding ding ding.
It seems the vast majority of people do NOT want to allow speech they don’t like, no matter the consequences. That requires too much forward thinking. Excuse me while I watch history repeat itself…
I don’t wanna give money to people who would hate me for who I am
Then you don’t really like free speech!
Ok bud. I’m not gonna weigh in with my actual opinion on the matter being discussed, I just wanted to point out that you’ve taken a few too many steps with that assumption lol
Not who you replied to, but how so?
I don’t know anything about you, but for the sake of argument, imagine you’re part of a marginalized group. Now, imagine that you use a product. The owner of said product has openly stated that they hate your very existence because you’re part of that marginalized group. You have decided that this is a good reason to stop giving them your money.
When does free speech come into this? How does one person’s money/profit affect another’s right to speak? It doesn’t. Choosing where you spend your money is you utilizing your freedom to express yourself via your wallet, just the same as they chose to express themself via words. Both the objector and the CEO are saying “I disagree with your views on the world and as such no longer desire your business”. Well, maybe the CEO still wants your business.
owner of said product has openly stated that they hate your very existence
Of all the things that didn’t happen, this didn’t happen the most.
Sure, they just said they strongly support someone who has openly said that. Totally not the same thing
Yes I tend to share your analysis.
Oh I want him to be allowed to speak his mind. I just don’t want to give a Trumpet any money, and especially not after their annoucement of a crypto wallet and ventures into AI crap.
Free speech doesn’t mean I should spend my money there.
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. Nobody here is silencing speech, we are just exercising our right to free association by not doing business with Nazi sympathizers.
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It isn’t misinformation.
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Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn’t covered by “opinion”. No normalizing nazis. It’s such a low bar. He couldn’t clear it.
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He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn’t being violated.
This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.
Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I’m not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.
Sorry but I won’t participate in this juvenile trivializing of the word “Nazi”. Yes, I know that’s become almost a meaningless slur at this point, but personally I just will not take seriously anybody who throws it around like this. Perhaps because I’m European. Perhaps because I studied history. It’s not serious.
It’s because you’re a centrist.
You say it like it’s an insult! Actually I usually vote green. And in Europe the greens are really greens, rather than just spoilers who help Bushes and Trumps into power.
I didn’t intend it to be directly insulting, but it seems like you’re well aware how lemmy leans already and you’re willing to double down on centrist stalling points anyway. With no realistic middle choices available, and none cropping up, Americans are a little more than a little tired of centrist talking points.
Or because the left-right axis makes no sense
Mate they’re mainstreaming fascist rhetoric. Over 60% of Republicans now believe in the Great Replacement theory aka White Genocide, which used to be a conspiracy theory on the fringes of white nationalist propaganda just about a decade ago.
I encourage you to not get hung up on symbolism and instead look to ideology and rhetoric.
Leaving aside the absurd and juvenile “Nazi” slur (“fascist” is less of a stretch), I disagree with your analysis. I think it’s exactly the opposite. I think it’s because mainstream politicians have refused to address the reasonable aspects of people’s concerns (about immigration, in particular), and because progressive activists have gone off the leash in their wild accusations of racism at the slightest contradiction of their opinions, that we’ve ended up in this situation of the far right getting into power all over the place.
Once again: I do not vote for these parties. Anyway, we are now completely offtopic so let’s leave it there.
So yes they’re fascist, but the progressives complained too much about racism, and therefore it’s fine to support the fascists?
IDK what to tell you but your political ideology is privileged garbage. You’re more scared of being called racist than of fascism. The kind of “yes ethnic cleansing but please no mean language” attitude. Please get a political education and your priorities straight.
With your insults and condescension, you’re just proving my point.
Yeah I never doubted you’d have a reason to dismiss being called out like that. Getting your feelings hurt invalidates everything else. I feel like I’m talking to myself from 10 years ago.
You don’t have to take it from me. If you’re a student of history, maybe start with Umberto Eco. He knew a thing or two about fascism, I’ve heard.
The biggest mistake we can make is to assume it can’t happen again.
ah, we‘re getting somewhere. You have doubts about something, therefore the opposite must be right. Makes sense that you said the Republican party is the party for the little guy now.
You have to self host if you use synching
They probably mean forwardable ports, i.e. have isp-related problems with hosting servers.
Syncthing doesn’t need you to host a server, it can hole-punch right through the worst cgnats.Might also be intermittent syncing only when ops machine is running.
Traitor to his species
??? Lol? Imagine having an opinion in 2025
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Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true
How is it true exactly? Republicans do not care about the little guys in any way lol
You could look at infomaniak, but I didn’t have the best experience trying out (or even getting started with) their services. Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be tough (or at least it was from me while I was looking to escape from Tuta). Good luck, tho.
Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be toug
Nobody should be using any provider as one stop shop… That’s how we got cooked by Google and Apple the first time folks.
Unbundle, mix and match…
Yeah it auck Proton did this but if you only got one proton service, it is eaiser to either do nothing or switch it.
I agree! I don’t use Proton’s VPN or their password manager for that reason. The equivalents I had in place already were fine and I didn’t feel the need to switch over everything, just some things.
I feel like I should pre-emptively switch to Keepass incase Bitwarden goes right wing.
I mean, Keepass is free open source software so the political views of the developers don’t matter as much.
+1 for keepass. Been using it for years and love it.
I mean, Keepass is free open source software so the political views of the developers don’t matter as much.
So is bitwarden, you don’t have to use their servers.
Escape from Tuta for what reason if you’re willing to share? I see it recommended a lot.
Oh boy, getting old here, let’s see if I can remember.
I think in part it was because they seemed unable to fix the Linux desktop client after months and months and months, and repeated support requests. Also, I had been a user of theirs for some time when they changed how their plans worked, and moved a feature I relied heavily upon (I think it was email templates—something you might never need!) to a much more expensive plan. Felt like I was being charged more for being a longtime user. I don’t know if they have cloud storage now, but at the time they didn’t, and Proton had that, along of course with mail and calendar—all of that for less than what Tuta was offering which was mail, calendar, and plenty of other features that were continuously promised but never released. So really just a bunch of little things that were important to me, but which other users might never miss.
Thanks for the writeup. It helps to know where to look to make an informed decision, when I finally have the time to sit down and de-google.
In all seriousness, I genuinely feel like the demographics of those making over 250K/year outside of Silicon Valley (proton is from Switzerland which is a center-right country), and outside of the arts industries, is probably bare minimum of lib-center, and probably most likely to be at least fiscally conservative, if not socially as well. Those kind of people are more concerned with maintaining their financial position than the issues plaguing the income classes that the individual has graduated out of.
I don’t think you’re going to find many CEOs that aren’t at least a little right of center or self serving in their business interests.
Getting to the top 1% income bracket is a lot easier than maintaining that financial position.
Truly unhinged that they decided to come out on this. Fellas, you are fucking Swiss why throw yourself under the bus for the US election
Because terrible people literally can’t help themselves. Wait for people to show you who they truly are, they will…
I’ve been doing research into this because I want to degoogle. Looking for hosted and secure Mail, Calendar, Drive… maybe docs if possible. I don’t mind paying as long as I’m a customer and not a product to be sold.
My short list was: Mailbox.org, Zoho, and Notion.
Then there are the services I don’t understand as much because I don’t really want to self host or step into server maintenance… NextCloud, OwnCloud, LibreCloud, OnlyOffice. Maybe someone could straighten me out with those if I’m off base.
“Proton? Why the fuck would he be mad at a WINE fork…?”
“… OH THE MAIL-”So literally one guy can change your entire network lifestyle?
I’ve been using Runbox for many years and it’s weird i don’t see recommendations.
disroot
depending on your politics, autistici
God damnit I literally just got Proton going like 4 days ago.
Can we stop stooping to their level and quit the ‘fascist’ rhetoric. How can ppl like OP not recognize they revel in anyone antagonizing with the absurd ‘fascist’. All the mud-slinging is exactly how all this got so messed up so quickly
Also who’s going to mailbox with me?
US Politics is cartoons level antagonizing
Abandoning the Proton subscription now. How stupid and irresponsible. In fact, are running away from all your principles.
Just looking for a free alternative…
I know Google just donated to Trump’s inauguration, and also does all the stupid surveillance capitalism crap that Google does, but I just compared prices, and Google Workspace is a few dollars per month cheaper per user than Proton is, for my needs (family, custom domain names, etc)
We’ve been on Proton for a few years, and it’s fine, but we do also have Pixel Android phones, and not using Google services constantly feels like swimming upstream, plus all family members also still end up having to use Google services for work, anyway
It’s just not practical for me to de-Google, which is a shame, so I think I’ll be switching in a few months, unless pricing changes significantly :S
I own and operate https://port87.com/, and in no way am I even close to right wing. I don’t call myself a liberal, and get offended when people do, because I’m a leftist.
It’s not ready for business email yet, but it’ll work for your personal email.
