- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/26226188
cross-posted from: https://lemy.lol/post/39626252
We have to agree where we ARE before we stand a chance to agree about what we do from here.
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Thank you. This is what is needed.
Edit: obviously many people are not worth the effort but not even trying is not going to help. Don’t associate with Nazis, period. Not everyone who causes harm is a Nazi, however.
Also not endorsing the language 100%, however I do think this is a good start.
This sounds reasonable, but the logical conclusion of that is that the only people that associate with Nazis are other Nazis, or future Nazis (who may not realise it yet). This normalises nazism in a growing group of people because they don’t have any moderate voices highlighting their more extreme thoughts and pulling them back towards normality.
Your argument also make the false assumption that Nazis are irredeemable. I’m sure some of them are. But I’m equally sure that at least some of them aren’t.
I am not responsible for spending time around violent, hateful people in order to bring them into the fold and change their minds and ultimately their actions. My comment is about talking to people in your life already, who are more likely to actually make changes, I.e. picking your battles, in order to give chances to the folks such as those who are alienated but unsure.
Your argument also make the false assumption that Nazis are irredeemable. I’m sure some of them are. But I’m equally sure that at least some of them aren’t.
Thats not an assumption that I make although I could see how you would think I was saying that. In my mind people are people and probably most of them could make changes, but the work required to do so becomes greater over time and it does not fall on marginalized folks, including me, to do that work. But yes I don’t associate with Nazis. If you do something different that isn’t enabling and validating them and their beliefs and actions I would love to know what it is.
A popular older phrase…
“Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.”
If step one is to admit that they’ve been lied to, then step two has to have them admit that they were wrong in how they voted. Otherwise we’ll go through this again, again, and again.
But that’ll be a hard sell, as nobody likes to admit that they’ve been conned/taken advantage of. Thats human nature.
Democrats can admit that Kamala is a shit candidate and maga can admit Trump is a shit president… it’s not that hard actually…
Democrats can admit that Kamala is a shit candidate and maga can admit Trump is a shit president… it’s not that hard actually…
Admitting that a candidate is not good is different than admitting that you voted for the wrong person that’s destroying the country (regardless of party).
Also, I’ve never heard a MAGA person say what you said they can say (italicized part).
Sure… but to put it into perspective democratic leadership was saying that Biden, who looked and sounded like he had dementia, was the greatest president since FDR…. They certainly need to bear responsibility for most of the fault of our current situation.
We’ve never said anything different. You’re just now realizing this.
There’s no small number of people on the left who’d rather say “I told you so” than “I look forward to working with you.”
We did tell them so. For years. With graphs and charts and video evidence and circles and arrows pointing to the relevant parts.
We were constantly insulted and ignored for it.
Sure let’s work together. We’ll pretend it never happened.
This is the correct way to do it. We’re all in the same boat no matter what choices we made that brought us here. If we keep up with the petty I told you so’s or doing things out of spite of others choices were going to stay falling down this nightmare path. A lot of people make bad choices but not everyone is doing it cause they are a terrible person.
Wait wait wait. So the people who support treating humans like they are disposable trash undeserving of rights if they dare stray from the very narrowly defined normative values are now okay because they changed sides? Fuck that. They still support violence against others and hate against the unknown. They are still undeserving of acceptance.
Supporting Nazis will make us all Nazis.
There’s always these brainlet comments under this repost. Um, would you rather they stay Nazis so you can pretend to feel morally superior while not doing anything about it?
Here’s the thing. Would I trust any of them to have my back? Nope. Not a single one. So, yeah, they want to change? Good for them, they are welcome to join the right side of history. I’m not ever going to trust them, though. I won’t ever believe that they’ll vote for the best interests of the species. They can live out their lives trying to be a better person and doing the right thing. That makes them an average human. If the suffering they cause comes out to a net zero by the end, then they get to have a grave I won’t piss on. However, if the only way they can be a good person is to blame someone else for lying to them, instead of assuming any personal responsibility, I don’t have much faith they are gonna break even.
For many, the answer is “yes”, because it’s perfectly easy and incredibly comfortable. Why sacrifice the immediate gratification of what they’re doing now with literally anything else.
Who the hell is going to be convinced by a patronizing image like this?
Blame anyone but yourself. That’s the American way!
how about this.
you were lied to, we told you as much. you refused to listen. listen now. stand down, and the only thing hurt will be your pride.
you stop at you where lied to, you do not need to do the I told you so, you do not need to shame them. If you want to bring people on board you do not antagonize them more than you have to
But you do need to shame them! because if you don’t they will continue to say the same nonsense. Trying to be nice failed. And do you really want these moron on your team Because i dont.
you need to persuade them, you do not need to shame them, there is a difrence, shaming them will only make them steadfast in their oposition to you.
I mean you can call me a centrist that would be wrong. What I am saying is that shaming the rank in file voter is not going to do anything but alianate them. but you do you, take the message of forgivness the post is trying to advocate. You seem to have a fundimental missunderstanding on what the goal is here, While I would agree that the message of this post would not work, I would say that your message is even worse somehow as you are offering no sollution except being even more insufferable.
Yes i misunderstood, because trying to find common ground with republican for the last 40years ended how ? With a litteral nazi in the white house! You give your hand and they take the whole arm. They are not interested in fact,logic and truth, they want to be right to dominate and to feel superior to someone, even if its hurting them in the long run. I want nothing to do with people that still call themselves Republicans after musk did A FUCKIN NAZI SALUTE AT THE INOGURATION. And even if they could see the light that trump should be jail for the rest of his life, what then do you think they will learn their lesson, that they will stop being racist, homophobic and sexist? That they will stop longing for the good old day of the confederacy, that they will stop electing conmen, that they will stop thinking of homeless people as good for nothing that deserve everything they got , that they will learn common decency and empathy? No, they will learn nothing, and wait for the next moral panic to pin the blame on the next random group of people that claim their ire. To reiterate there is no forgiveness for people who cheer at a litteral nazi salute in the white house.
Oh I am sorry and making smug remarks just so you can pull the “I told you so face” is going to help any thing? First facts and logic is such a meme at this point, because you know it.
Look if your goal is to do absolutly nothing but feel superior and tout that you where right and trump is bad go for it grind that god damn point into dust and hold your little pattle up at the state of the union adress, and tell me how that goes for you
We’re in for the fight of our lives trying to rescue America, and I am willing to accept almost anyone as an ally, but the barebones minimum is that people who voted for Trump FUCKING DO HAVE TO FUCKING ADMIT THEY WERE FUCKING WRONG.
Yaup.
Frankly, it’s most important they admit to themselves that they were lied to.
Yeah. People don’t just deserve forgiveness. Acknowledgement of bad behavior comes before forgiveness. That’s standard operating procedure. They aren’t doing that.
Even more important that someone they liked and someone they thought liked them lied to them.
Do you think they will?
They lied to themselves.
Or just grow up, admit you were wrong, and do something about it. “It’ll make them feel bad!” Good, they should feel bad. They voted for an openly hostile, dumb, Russian bootlicker of a president. I just don’t get this post that keeps being reposted and why coming together means forgetting how we got here.
Imagine an abusive wife trying to come back to her husband because she didn’t realize she signed a prenup and wants to say she was lied to about leaving now that life is hard. Like, no, not going to take any responsibility for my temper/violence, or even say I’m going to change, let’s just pretend I didn’t know that punching you in the face was gonna leave a black eye because I didn’t think it would hurt my hand.
Trump openly stated he would do what he’s doing now. His campaign published project 2025. It wasn’t a conspiracy. They did it out in the open while crowing about doing it. There’s really no excuse for not listening when he told you his plans.
You either made a mistake because you were purposely uninformed or you agreed with what he wanted to do until it started affecting you. Either way you were wrong and need to accept and admit that before serious work can be done. Otherwise it’ll just happen again when the next demagogue rears their ugly head.
“It was supposed to hurt others. Not ME!”
Working class is working class, red or blue.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
Don’t underestimate the effect that propeganda ran by our very own government has on its citizenry.
Working class is working class, red or blue.
True but not relevant to what I said. Everyone of us needs to learn from our mistakes, but in order to do that we have to admit we made them.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
False, I doubt the Dems would have dismantled the government at the behest of the world’s richest man (along with giving him access to all of our tax and social security records) and also not relevant to what I said.
Don’t underestimate the effect that propeganda[sic] ran by our very own government has on its citizenry.
Accurate, America is one of the most heavily propagandized populations in history, but not relevant because all they had to do was listen to the words of Trump’s actual campaign speeches or read his actual campaign literature to know what he was planning to do. He didn’t hide his intentions, people just thought he wasn’t serious about them.
Working class is working class, red or blue.
Yes. And one side votes in favor of the working class while the other does not.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
Then why do we see more tax breaks for the wealthy under Republican leadership than Democrat leadership? Why do we see more corporate regulations under Democrat leadership and less under Republican leadership? Your statement is false.
Gonna be real hard for me to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with a group of people who vote against democracy by elevating rapists and felons who illegally attempt to overturn elections and who have a ton of racists and sexists in their ranks.
Wouldn’t have said that 10+ years ago, but they’ve crossed all sorts of lines since then. They don’t really deserve to be forgiven.
I agree but we have to acknowledge that it’s not helpful. Like there is nothing MAGA can say or do to make me think they are good people, but if we can at minimum get them to understand the propaganda they swallowed whole we can actually do better, for all of us.
MAGA are evil people.
I don’t even consider them people at this point. They want to treat people like dogs and breeding mares then that’s exactly how I’ll treat them.
Follow the social contract or get fucked.
umm and how’s likes of biden and pelosi any less evil than these people. with palestine biden has more civilians blood on him than putin.
if you can hold your nose and vote for dnc then you can also work with ex-maga
You chose to listen to the ones who lied, and ignored the ones who warned
