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People who are like this today, tried to install red hat 5/6 using popular mechanics magazine as an instruction booklet and with floppy disks
Either that or they tried to install Open BSD once and survived: https://xkcd.com/349/
By all standards, a completely understandable outcome
Ok, I’ll bite. I tried Ubuntu a few months ago. Logging into Eduroam was a bit of a process, but eventually I figured it out and it worked. Then one day the internet didn’t work and I had no idea why. Something to do with the network drivers. Then I was trying to use OpenOffice (or LibreOffice? The one that came with the OS), and I use Zotero for references. The Zotero plugin had a bunch of glitches that made me not trust it. The Internet (back on Windows) assured me that it worked fine, but it was way glitchier than the Windows version.
The bottom line is that I just need this stuff to work because I don’t have time to debug. I love the idea though; maybe I was using the wrong distro.
I just tried using Linux as my main Gaming OS desktop probably about a month and half ago after using it for college for 5 years.
I love Linux but for NVIDIA drivers and gaming it still very much isn’t there.
It is in mixed states of ready. Each distro has something it’s ready for and something it isn’t. It’d be nice if all the ready parts were in a single distro, but that’s an XKCD 927 issue. I am hopeful that Valve puts thought and effort into making SteamOS a solid desktop on top of a solid gaming platform.
I run Linux daily, Linux isn’t ready, its really not much of a debate. If the average person can’t operate it efficiently then the average person will just stick to mac or windows.
I’ll admit it is closer than it has ever been thanks to compatibility layers like proton but the average user still can’t figure it out so it still has a way to go.
I tried this year.
It’s not ready.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s fine for most things, but end-user, normie fire-and-forget stuff? Nah.
But by that standard, Windows isn’t ready either…
It is by far more “ready” than Linux. But even if it wasn’t, that’s where 80% of people already are. Whatever quirks Windows has, they are already aware of them.
But seriously, no, that’s not a valid argument. Forget software. Hardware compatibility alone makes those two things entirely different from each other. Tell me again what types of GPU I should buy for my Linux gaming PC using an HDR VRR display and what DE I should choose. Is the answer “any”? No? So it’s not ready.
I think you’ll find there’s mainly one group of people that fall into the “Linux isn’t ready” category - ‘Windows Power Users who cite specific use cases’.
But wait, I thought the meme was about normies that tried Linux once a long time ago and never bothered with it again. Which is it?
“Specific use cases” here seems to be “has a Nvidia GPU”, which seems to be specifically 90% of the PC market. Should a normie gamer with no tech skills who is not a power user try to migrate their mid-range PC with a 3060 to Linux? 3D modellers? Video editors? Twitch streamers?
This conversation always goes like this. Turns out that when you start scratching off all the exceptions then yes, Linux is ready to work first time out of the box. If you’re trying to salvage a specifically supported ten year old laptop with no dedicated GPU to do mostly web stuff and coding.
“Specific use cases” here seems to be “has a Nvidia GPU”
My 1080 Ti was plug&play in Mint …
People keep saying this, it keeps not being true. I mean, yeah, a ten year old card may be as far behind in features as the current drivers, particularly if you’re not trying to use it in full, but even conceding that most people don’t have top tier parts, the most popular dedicated cards are the 3060 and 4060.
Drivers aren’t supposed to just show you a desktop, feature support and performance matter. “It works for my use case” it’s not the expected level of support for mainstream usage, the same way “it works on my computer” is not a valid reason to dismiss a bug.
Literally me lol. I built a brand new Nvidia machine last year, tried a few distros and just had nonstop issues with games. Which became me googling reddit forums for fix actions and advice, which would just be try a new a distro or run these commands that breaks something else so another thing works. I love foss and what it represents, but I’m not a software guy nor do I have time to waste hours googling why kingdom come is playing at 5 fps on my 4080.
Yep. And even recognizing that 4080 owners aren’t “mainstream”, either, the experience is pretty much the same on any affordable gaming laptop with a dual GPU setup or most mid-range desktop PCs.
I’d say that the rise of AMD APUs is interesting in terms of brute forcing Linux’s limitations by making Linux-friendly hardware more popular, but it’s a long way to go to GPU parity and it’s not like Linux is trivial to get running on those, either. Bazzite and SteamOS help for some applications, but I think people downplay how weird they can be to use as desktop daily drivers just by virtue of being immutable distros with some very specific gaming-focused quirks.
Man, there’s some lore behind Nvidia support in Linux. Short of it: Nvidia are assholes, they pretty much could give Linux users an on-par experience to Windows, but don’t want to. Things have been generally improving in the last 5 years or so I would say though. CUDA and PCI Passthrough also usually work, so getting a cheap Intel Arc to draw your DE and using your Nvidia for heavy lifting is a relatively cheap and ‘drop-in’ fix to your workflow.
Yeah, I know.
But the thing is, while I understand that for hobbyists this is all cool Linux gossip that feeds Youtube videos and is entertaining, it’s very, very far from what a normal user expects.
Which is, you know… no lore at all.
For the record, I ran an A770 on Linux for a bit on fairly recent drivers for a bit and there was definitely something wrong (frame pacing? straight up worse performance? I’m not sure). I should give that another shot one of these days.
Was using CUDA a problem?
Does someone want to convince me that the whole AI industry is training their models on windows machines?
If being ready means “runs Windows applications” to you, then obviously Windows will always be the best choice.
Like, what a metric lol
Next you’re gonna tell me MacOS isn’t ready either, because you can’t play many Windows games on it as well
Complaining about hardware compatibility on Linux while Windows 11 doesn’t even support first gen Ryzen CPUs is crazy.
I’ve put Fedora on my mum’s pc after it became clear that Win10 will EoL soon, and that Win11 would refuse to run on it. Have had significantly fewer support requests since then.
Her work is mostly done via Citrix, which has an official Fedora Client. Everything else happens in the Browser, or sometimes in OnlyOffice, which so far has worked as a drop-in replacement for MS Office.
As always, it really depends on the use case.
There’s always one “I gave it to my mum” post on these. I don’t know if it’s always you, but man, it’s starting to get very funny.
Yes, my parents are on an Android tablet now as their sole computing device. Want to start arguing for the year of Android desktop? Sure, “for most applications” everything happens on a browser.
That’s not what people have desktop PCs for, though, is it? You may be surprised to know I also don’t run Windows 11 on my phone. For the same reasons it’s less comfortable to run Linux on your desktop PC, incidentally.
For the record, I actively tried to use my Manjaro install to work whenever possible. I only switched back and forth between it and Windows when one broke or something didn’t work, as a bit of a test. Turns out I ended up in Windows like 80% of the time.
It’s fine, but not ready for mainstream.
Android absolutely is ready for the desktop - its cousin is called ChromeOS which is running on zillions of Chromebooks. And ChromeOS is a version of Linux
Yes, I am aware. Not what we’re discussing here, though.
If it’s good enough for mums, it’s good enough for a lot of people. Because mums are the mainstream.
For desktop computing? Absolutely not. For phones, tablets and maaaaybe thin and light laptops. Maybe.
I’m sure it’s a common enough occurrence in a community with lots of computer nerds.
I do recognise that there are a lot of usecases in which Linux isn’t currently the sensible choice for most users, but I also feel the ready/not ready thing is quite as clear cut. While I’m obviously rather biased, I do genuinely think that there is a subset of casual users that would do better with Linux than with Windows.
I could talk about how Windows has been a lot more problematic for me than Linux, but that has been mainly down to driver issues with a specific network adapter, and we both know that isn’t the reason I prefer Linux anyway.
Yeah, I don’t disagree with any of that. But as you say, it’s not why there is a whole rah-rah fanboy community for an operating system, of all things.
If you DO want to promote a less corporate-driven computing landscape, then there’s reason for some frustration, I think. I am not the naysayer in all these threads because I “support Windows” or whatever. I would love to have a Linux offshoot that neatly replaces Windows with a similar set of design sensibilities instead of hanging out with a group of delusional nerds pretending that the current way of developing Linux is bringing it to the masses anytime soon.
Tried it again a few months ago when HDR support first dropped in KDE. It didn’t work at all. Everything was desaturated and dim. Literally the opposite of what HDR is supposed to do.
I’m giving it another year before I try Linux again. Hopefully the bugs are sorted by then.
Before I bought a Steam Deck I had never used Linux but now I really like it, honestly I’m tempted to install SteamOS on my PC as it’s only ever used for gaming anyway
99% of people want a drop-in replacement for Windows that will install and run every possible Windows-compatible application, game and device without them having to make any extra effort or learn anything new. Basically Windows but free (in all senses).
Any even slightly subtle difference or incompatibility and they’ll balk. Linux can never be that, and Microsoft will keep the goalposts moving anyway to be sure of it.
Sure, a lot more works and is more user friendly than 15 years ago, but most people won’t make the time to sit down and deal with something new unless it’s forced on them… which is what Microsoft are doing with Win11.
This is my old man nerd point every time (and by the way, we all keep having the exact same conversation here, which is infuriating).
It is NOT, in fact, more user friendly than 15 years ago.
Not Linux’s fault, necessarily, but hardware got… weird since the days of the mid 00s when Linux WAS pretty much a drop-in replacement. What it couldn’t do then is run Windows software very well at all, and that was the blocker. If we had Proton and as many web-based apps as we do now in 2004 I’d have been on Linux full time.
These days it’s a much harder thing to achieve despite a lot more work having gone into it (to your point on moving goalposts).
it definitely is more user friendly, i remember trying ubuntu 10+ years ago and the default driver was awful, the nvidia driver install ran in the terminal and asked questions that i had no answer to, so half the time i fucked it up, and then it didn’t support my monitor so i had to edit the x server conf to get the correct resolution and refresh rate. and when the new drivers came out i had to re-do everything every time
for a few years now you just install with a usb stick and everything runs greatHaving recently spent the equivalent to five work days trying to get an Nvidia setup working on Linux I’m going to say the experience isn’t necessarily much better, depending on what you are trying to do and how.
Installing Windows machines 10+ years ago wasn’t much more fun either… (I’m not sure it’s any more fun these days, but I haven’t done it in ages, so I’ve no idea).
It is NOT, in fact, more user friendly than 15 years ago.
This is just patently false. Pick any common distro.
Audio and networking were a shitshow back then, nowadays almost everything just works on those two fronts. Also, having to edit your Xorg.conf is not what I’d call user friendly…
But there was this brief moment, though. Maybe that’s my problem, that I remember it as this momentous piece of Linux history to start getting these cool distros in nice, shiny professional-looking CDs with proper installers that would set up your DE first time every time and get everything mostly there… and it turns out that it was like three years and a couple of Ubuntu iterations.
FWIW, networking mostly works, but I had a heck of a time finding a distro that would properly do 5.1 out of my integrated ASUS audio device last time I went distro hopping. I think audio got better, worse and then better again since the good old days.
I had a heck of a time finding a distro that would properly do 5.1 out of my integrated ASUS audio device
That’s not even close to a common use case though. Using that as an indicator of how user friendly Linux is is unfair.
It’s not being used as an indicator of user friendliness (that’d be the atrocious time I had setting up my Nvidia GPU and HDR monitors). It’s specifically an anecdote replying to the previous guy’s (accurate) comment regarding how finicky old implementations of audio on Linux used to be.
But also, in case you’re wondering, that setup worked first time on Windows with no additional work beyond the drivers installed by Asus itself. Do I like, or even tolerate, ASUS’s weird driver manager? Nope, frickin’ hate it, would switch to Linux to avoid it all things being equal. But one thing worked first time, the other needed five different distros before one randomly got it right for no discernible reason.
Fair enough, sorry for the misunderstanding.
I’ve had the opposite experience with Windows audio though. It’s always been weird for me, randomly switching outputs for no reason, and I stopped even trying to connect wireless headphones because it would always seem to prioritize those, even when they’re turned off. Every 5 to 6 months I’d have to dig deep in the audio settings to fiddle with the gain on my mic so I’d stop blowing out my friends’ ears on discord.
I think we all need to start differentiating the usability quirks and general jank that all OS have in different areas from the blockers.
Yes, the way Windows handles sources and prioritization sucks, while different Linux DEs have dumb problems with UI scaling or their own audio quirks or MacOS has weird multimonitor support or whathaveyou. If that was it I’d be all for prioritizing the free alternative, no questions asked.
The issue is the blocking issues. Entire features not working, or working at noticeably sub-par performance. Hardware with straight-up nonexistent support you need to replace to make the jump, or that is so finicky to set up that it may as well not work for all the average user is concerned. Those are showstoppers.
The problem is you could have a LOT fewer of the quirks, but a single dealbreaker is enough to block somebody making the jump, or reporting that they tried and failed. I’m as annoyed with how inconsistently videoconferencing picks up the right audio output as anybody. I complain about it every time I have a work call. But I still wouldn’t suggest to any of my friends to try to set up their high end Nvidia GPU on Linux as a main gaming daily driver. Those two things are on completely different tiers.
I was thinking not only about the finicky drivers, but also the different audio backends, like ALSA and OSS, Pulse would have just come out at the time, so it was definitely getting better, but it was fresh off the presses back then, so it wasn’t good enough yet either. Nowadays, Pulse works pretty well, pipewire works pretty well, things more or less just work, Bluetooth can be a little weird, but usually you just need to change the settings on pulse/pipewire to your preference.
I’ve genuinely had problems with multi-speaker configs this year on multiple distros and very little guidance on how to troubleshoot it. But you’re not wrong.
Especially if you had a soft-modem.
And printing. Oh dear, I might have a headache if I think too much about it.
Oh, man, I had entirely blocked the concept of “soft-modems” from my memory. I’m having flashbacks.
You say it like it’s a bad thing but yes, I want my stuff to just work and my apps to just run after I download them… I don’t want to spend hours every other day or week during my limited free time troubleshooting why something doesn’t work. I already spend all day doing that in my work’s linux servers and my home server.
This is an issue with FOSS. If something doesn’t work then you are on your own. Yes, I can fix it, or work around it, or whatever but it will take hours that I could be spending in windows 11 just playing a game or actually learn something more relevant instead of troubleshooting random shit. On other apps as well, I’ve paid for a lot of software to be able to ask the owners to help and for them to not tell me to fuck off.
Here’s an analogy: You can do your own gardening, or you can hire one of the two landscaping services in town.
This sounds great, but these days, no matter who you hire, the people who show up 1) want to install a fountain and an advertisement billboard that will run off your water and electricity supply and 2) want the right to take what they like from your house by default, they’ll mysteriously “forget” and do it anyway even if you pay them not to.
Furthermore, with their latest package, one of the landscaping companies are basically saying that if you don’t have a yard large enough for their fountain, you have to move house, which is only marginally better than the other one who will only work on gardens for houses they sold in the first place.
(A previous version of this comment involved the word “lube”. I’m sure you can imagine the rest.)
That is a terrible analogy. In your weird alternate reality I just wouldn’t keep a garden. Also, I’d be pretty concerned with suing the patently illegal practices of this weirdly overbearing landscaping business, if I cared enough about gardening, which I don’t.
More to the point, that’s not how people present this to themselves and normies. At least not until they get some pushback. The pitch is always “it works now” or “it’s actually better and faster” or “everybody is going to switch any day now because of some random event or another, I’ve decided”.
It’s never “hey guys, maybe you can trade a whole bunch of convenience and a much higher minimum level of technical skill for the benefit of not being as impacted by enshittified services of the late online era”. Because in that scenario most people will take enshittified services. If not out of conviction, necessity or laziness, definitely out of not being able to clear that technical bar in the first place.
Bringing “no garden” back out of the analogy equates to no computer at all. The fountain is all the crapware and spyware shovelled into Windows these days. The billboard is the ads they want inject into everything.
The alternative is Apple. They don’t want to install a billboard just yet, and there’s no obvious fountain, but there’s a nightmare HOA who tell you how you have to live and if you don’t live their way you have to move.
No, that’s not the equivalent at all because I’m not a gardener but I do use a computer to work.
Look, analogies can be useful to explain things to people who don’t understand the paramenters in question, but we all know what an OS is. You don’t need to talk down to anybody here.
Turns out the question isn’t about gardening (or lube), it’s between a FOSS OS that remains finicky and not perfectly supported and a few commercial alternatives with different quirks and approaches to monetizing the crap out of you but that generally have decent usability for mainstream non-technical users with general applications.
You don’t need an analogy for that unless you’re talking to a time traveller from the 1800s.
They want ReactOS.
But they don’t want to pay it to develop it fully
They also want the developers to dedicate their entire lives, 20 hours a day, for no pay, just became they’re entitled to a FOSS Windows clone.
Most of the hobbyists I speak to that have failed linux desktop experiences mostly switch back to windows due to:
- Hardware compatibility issues.
- Microsoft office interoperability limitations of the web based office.
- Display scaling issues on multi-monitor setups and some linux applications.
Personally for me the list is:
- Bluetooth not being detected on my particular asus laptop. (The same bluetooth chip works in other laptops)
- Multi-monitor scaling and resolution issues when 3 external monitors are connected via thunderbolt doc.
- Lack of good alternatives to fancyzones
fanzyzones
Thanks!! This is just what I need. Pop_os has an equivalent in their DE and because work I have windows and I really miss it.
If you don’t have admin rights on your work pc, you can install fancyzone by installing powertoys from the microsoft store.
Add binary compatibility issues to that list: https://jangafx.com/insights/linux-binary-compatibility The moment you need software that is not packaged by your distro you either need to be lucky that whomever compiled it accounted for your setup, or compile it from scratch yourself (if open source and publicly available). Especially with closed source software (like most games) the latter isn’t even an option.
Personally I believe that unless you’re able to do a slackware or gentoo installation, you’re not ready for Linux.
/s but only kinda
Linux users need to have a higher level of technical literacy than windows users. It just can’t be avoided unless you’re okay with potentially reinstalling your os at some point. The bar has been lowered a lot, but because other companies refuse to play nice with Linux, it’ll always be there.
If you’re okay with that tradeoff, then yeah Linux is great. But a lot of people aren’t even aware of it and it causes a lot of pain
Honestly I think potentially a bigger factor is that there are very few manufacturers who sell machines with linux preinstalled. Very few people have ever installed an OS before or have any desire to do so.
Also there is plenty of software with no real linux alternative even today unfortunately.
This is a big point that not many people acknowledge. The reason SteamOS works as well as it does has less to do with SteamOS itself (it’s ultimately as finicky as any Linux distro) and more with it being laser focused on making a specific piece of hardware do a specific thing.
Problem is, it’s a bit of a loop. It’s not particularly profitable to launch Linux-only devices, let alone to put the work to ensure they will work reliably for their entire lifetime without user intervention. That makes it harder to grow the ecosystem, given that the default implementation is way jankier than most people will allow, which in turn keeps the business less profitable.
That is exactly why Chromebooks were (are?) so popular. You got a cheap laptop with an easy-to-use OS without having to do any install. And let’s be real here, most people don’t need anything more than a web browser.
And let’s be real here, most people don’t need anything more than a web browser.
You would think. Surprisingly, i only know of one non techy person in my life for whom this was the case, and even they ended up needing to use some statistics software for school after switching to linux. Luckily, they were able to get it through a school-provided VM.
People have all kinds of needs and those needs can change over time. For people who are deaf in one ear, there is no easy way to set the audio output to mono. That’s just one way that accessibility features are lacking. I know people who rely on apps like notability syncing their mac laptop to their ipad, which no app on linux can do. I know people who have specialized software for work such as VPN apps that simply do not exist on linux. I know people who do creative work for whom it would be a major learning curve at the very least to switch. It only takes one app or crucial feature to lock you out. Even I have to dual boot from time to time for firmware updates or to play games my friends want to play that aren’t on Linux.
But you better believe I’m tracking all of these issues so I can switch people over as soon as they’re implemented ;)
More user friendly doesn’t mean you won’t have to spend hours troubleshooting driver issues that you will never have on Windows, that’s a real problem…
(and when you find the solution you need to input commands in terminal that you can’t tell what they do, that’s a huge security concern as it teaches users to just trust anyone who tells them to do things they don’t understand)
Man, people really overstate the barrier to entry to the terminal. Windows troubleshooting is full of command line stuff as well.
It’s not the terminal, it’s the underlying issues. Having more GUI options to set certain things is nice, but the reality of it is that if an option isn’t customizable to the point of needing quick GUI access it should just never break, not be configurable or at least not need any manual configuration at any point. The reason nobody goes “oh, but Windows command line is so annoying” is that if you are digging in there something has gone very wrong or you’re trying to do something Windows doesn’t want you to do.
The big difference is that the OS not wanting you to do things you can do is a bug for people in this type of online community while for normies it’s a feature.
As a normie (at least in these circles), I think I agree with your last point. Windows being heavily restricted in its customizability is a feature. A bad feature, but a feature nonetheless.
The linux terminal is really easy to get into & the UNIX file-system is just nicely organized
You can reinstall a driver without ever touching the command line on windows.
Can you do that with Linux? Idk maybe on some distros but the default would just be to uninstall the package from terminal.
Pretending these are equivalent is not cool and it just drives new users away for not understanding things the community takes for granted. It takes effort to learn the terminal if even tech-savvy windows users may not even use the command line
Not what I’m saying. I’m saying that a) copy pasting into the terminal isn’t the horrifying breakdown of usability Linux advocates seem to believe it is, and b) there are more pressing issues about how often you need to troubleshoot something in the first place.
On both Linux and Windows it’s relatively rare to have to reinstall a driver in the first place because both are able to pick up your hardware, set themselves up and keep themselves updated with minimal user intervention.
The real problem isn’t whether fixing the exceptions to that involves typing. The real problem is how often there are exceptions to that. In Linux it’s way more likely that the natural process of setting something up or customizing something will require some fiddling, while Windows is more likely to make you install some bloatware or not give you much choice, but most likely will get things working for you the way it wants them to work.
That is very much a user-friendly approach, despite its annoyances. The problem isn’t that there is a command line interface, the problem is that it’s littered in the middle of doing relatively frequent, trivial things. On purpose, even.
You know whats worse than doing things in windows command line or powershell? The registry
“Nooooo! I cant $sudo nano /etc/some.conf!!!”
Regedit -> HKEY_USERS/microsoft/windows/system/some_setting --> value=FUCK type=DWORD
This is a common meme but essentially is never needed
The deliberate misrepresentation here is that the Windows registry supports importing keys from a text file, so most of the time you have to mess with it you just download a file and double click on it.
Is that super secure? Nope. But hey, anytime you need to do something on a Linux terminal you’re also copy/pasting random crap you found online, don’t pretend you’re not.
The ultimate point still stands. None of these matter to normies, it’s how often you need to tinker or troubleshoot to begin with. For most users the acceptable number is zero.
That’s because you are sending your Fucks to the wrong key. You are missing the /feedback folder under system
Well, my brother installed linux (mint) on more than 30 laptops that we were fixing to reuse. Im pretty sure none of them had any driver problems.
Tbh, unless you have a NVIDIA graphics card, or are using arch*, driver issues almost never happen.
*my personal thinkpads wifi board didn’t work in arch, but that may be because I had already borked that install completly.
“Unless you have a computer in the 90% of users” is a hell of a dismissal.
In fairness, thin-and-light media and web use laptops are a different story, but for desktop use? That’s a big stretch.
My man, you think 90% of pcs have a graphics card at all? I live in a poor country, so does the majority of the worlds population, and almost no one has a graphics card here.
No, I think 90% of the ones that do have a dedicated GPU have a Nvidia one. That’s not an opinion, it’s data that’s widely available.
It’s also, incidentally, just an example of one of the more egregious issues with the current state of Linux. It doesn’t mean it’s the only one.
In any case, that’s not typically the space being discussed here. The advice generally is “get an AMD GPU”, not “we are assuming you’re on integrated graphics”.
Even the Nvidia graphics card sentiment is becoming outdated. There have been sizeable improvements in their drivers over the past couple years.
In my group of friends (all Linux gaming), I’m the only one with an NVIDIA card. I don’t have more problems than the other folks, I just have different ones.
The biggest gripe I have, HDR and color management, are getting fixed in Wayland soon. In the meantime I use gamescope to get HDR and apply color correction filters with reshade.
Correct. I’ve been rocking their open source driver on Wayland for about a year now, pretty smooth experience.
Though sleep is still a neverending struggle.
You’ve been rocking it for what? Does it support the DLSS feature set now along with HDR and VRR? I mean, it sure did show me a desktop for the few days I spent trying to get a clean, working install of the proprietary driver, but I wasn’t under the impression that I’d have feature parity without doing that.
VRR works as long as you’re on a recent Wayland version.
HDR isn’t a driver issue.
With X11, it ain’t happening.
Wayland current supports HDR, however there isn’t a protocol for applications to communicate with Wayland to configure themselves correctly. Some applications, like MPV, you can use an environmental variable to get HDR output (but not dynamic HDR, like HDR+ or Dolby Vision) and you can configure the parameters in the config.
Gamescope, the compositor that Valve uses for the Steamdeck, supports HDR for gaming. It works well for some games and completely fails for others.
Luckily, there’s a Wayland color management/HDR protocol that is staging for an upcoming Wayland update so you won’t need to depend on Gamescope to use HDR.
DLSS works in the games I’ve seen.
All of that in fully open source drivers? You sure about that? Is it per card?
Ultimately this is pretty much my point, you wrote a whole paragraph about this and I’m still not sure how accurate it is, which cards have which features supported or whether we’re even talking about the same thing.
Considering the competition’s implementation is “install this one piece of software day one, never think about it again”, that is some ways away from a “pretty smooth experience”, even without accounting for the parts that are buggy.
For the record, I’m aware of the state of affairs for Nvidia support overall (unfortunately, wish I didn’t have to be). I’m gonna say you’re wrong about HDR being a driver issue, though, seeing how it was outright disabled for what, three months? due to a showstopping driver bug. It seems to be back to working now, though.
In any case none of this is normie-friendly and an absolute dealbreaker for anybody on modern Nvidia hardware.
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The proprietary driver? I went distro hopping, ended up trying four or five different ones. Some had the proprietary driver baked in, there were a couple of different processes for the installation for the others. The GPU wasn’t the only hardware compatibility issue I was juggling, so by the time I also had audio going and the right DE setup to support my display features I ended up manually installing them in Manjaro by just finding a guide and blindly following whatever they told me to do.
I’ve defaulted to enabling the X reset on mine, just because waking from sleep is such shite.
Yeah, I was having trouble with sleep, and kwin compositing (KDE), so I switched to proprietary drivers and X11, its working pretty well.
In the last twenty years, I’ve pretty much only had nVidia hardware for graphics with very few issues.
Of course that wasn’t in laptops. Having a GPU in a laptop is asking for trouble anyway in my opinion.
All AMD hardware, Bazzite was killing my GPU as soon as there was load on it and WiFi that worked intermittently, Mint had non working WiFi on a USB antenna that is supposed to be 100% Linux compatible.
So yeah, I would love it if Linux fanatics stopped pretending that Linux is just as plug n play as Windows, it isn’t and solutions rely on trusting random people on the Internet.
I don’t pretend anything, I commented my personal experiences. So I guess we both shouldn’t expect our experience to be the norm…
And tbh, statistically you have the upper hand, most people do use windows after all. (76% or something like that?)
On the other hand printers always work out of the box on Linux without even installing any drivers, whilst getting them go work on Windows can often be a nightmare
Shit, I can’t get Windows to print on my network printer. Have to uninstall it, reinstall it, manually set the IP, restart Windows, and then it’ll work for like one session and then not work again. Windows won’t even throw an error, it’ll just tell me it printed while my printer sits silent.
On linux it works every time. It’s gotten to the point where I don’t even try to print in Windows anymore, I just forward all documents to my laptop and print in linux.
Disable IPv6.
Windows and some printers just choke on IPv6 for some reason. I was having sporadic issues with network printers and windows until I disabled IPv6 for other reasons and noticed a noticeable decrease in printer error metrics.
It’ll also affect SMB shares
I wish I could do that, but CGNAT makes ipv6 the much preferred option for a lot of things.
But it’s good to know that this might be the cause…
Windows 11 doesn’t even support first gen Ryzen CPUs. The amount of hardware that runs Windows 11 without tinkering is a tiny fraction of the hardware that runs Fedora Workstation without tinkering.
Linux is much better with drivers and hardware support than Windows. Windows only works well if you use the very small subset of hardware it supports.
Running windows 11 on older hardware is as easy as a checkbox in Rufus. Also the small subset of hardware windows supports is by far the most used hardware (probably because it’s supported by windows).
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Kinda crazy, because W7 didn’t support first gen Ryzen either!
The difference is that if you’re using hardware that’s compatible it just works. My current experience on Linux is that you have 100% hardware that’s supported based on what people are saying, you install one distro and your GPU shits the bed the second there’s load on it and WiFi works when it feels like it. Install another distro and the GPU works but WiFi doesn’t. In the end you spend hours troubleshooting and you’re applying solutions by trusting that people aren’t doing anything malicious when they tell you to input such and such in terminal.
On Windows? Install the OS, everything works, so no, there’s no issues with the hardware itself.
And the “small subset” of hardware it supports is anything made after 2017 and it’s only Windows 11 that doesn’t support hardware made before that.
Try to make Linux work without any outside intervention with all the hardware that Windows 11 is just compatible with out of the box, I dare you.
Edit: let’s add getting Dolby Atmos to work on Linux, never managed to make it work with VLC, had do download another program instead and create a file in a superuser only folder with text commands because there’s no UI options to make it work like it should.
Huh, odd. I never had these issues, even though I use an Nvidia card with a VRR monitor. All my peripherals (webcam, printer, bluetooth earbuds) work out of the box, too. But maybe I’m just lucky.
That “small subset” is hundreds of millions of devices made in the last 5 years alone.
The problem with Linux (not their fault), is that most of the problems appear in hardware made in the last 3 years.
Sure AMD’s drivers have not been a crapshot in windows forever, DDU dance is not a thing.
Sometimes to solve a windows problem you also get terminal commands, or get told to change settings in the registry. But usually users download some random binary tool that claims it will fix their problem. They will accept any UAC prompt as trained to do since Vista.
Frankly you are comically biased.
Yeah, I run Linux as my main OS and am able to say that it’s not ready to go mainstream, biased as fuck
It’s telling you are not even going to defend your points.
Windows being mainstream is not due to being easier to use or setup/configure (which the mainstream does not do) nor due to it being more robust or easier to fix (which it isn’t, plenty of guys make their living fixing windows issues, usually by wiping and reinstalling because documentation for most things in windows is very shallow).
It’s because the mainstream buys PCs and they are sold with windows
The difference is that the average user won’t face those problems in the first place on Windows while they’ll have them from the first boot on Linux because driver development for Linux isn’t a priority for manufacturers.
Then the user has to figure out the solution that applies to their version of Linux (when the average person can’t tell what OS they’re using in the first place) and the solution doesn’t come from the manufacturer but from a random GitHub project or people on a Linux forum that they just need to trust even though basic computer security starts with “don’t just trust random people”.
The “What about the registry? And people have to use the terminal on Windows as well!” argument falls apart when you realize that it’s not something that will be required for the average user while it is for the average user if they use Linux. Unless you’re trying to make Windows do power user stuff you don’t even need to know that it has a terminal.
There, happy?
You can’t bullshit me man. I ‘ve been using solving peoples’ issues with Windows before I ever downloaded a Linux distro.
Most of the problems average users won’t see with windows is because they buy it preinstalled while they have to install linux themselves. So they 'll be spared being unable to install AMD gpu drivers on a fresh Win 10 install if they made the mistake of not installing them before connecting the machine to the internet and Win Update fucking things up.
However windows update will get them later. Windows start menu refused to work after an update on a friends’ pc. Or it will be fail to apply an update and failing with no troubleshootable information only to fail again on next reboot and again and again. Or explorer crashing hundreds times a second causing users to have a black screen after login.
You are technically right in that the average user will not use the terminal (or registry, or booting to safe mode), they will pay someone else to do that or cope with it.
Sounds like the problem is between the keyboard and the chair because I’ve never had issues installing AMD drivers on Windows 10, never had Windows update issues and so on.
Maybe you would be better off getting a iPad.
Bad experiences from the past are valid reasons to be apprehensive.
I’m at the point where printers, bad WiFi, local file sharing/casting, crash recovery, GPU compute, even some driver issues, stuff like that just works in Linux (CachyOS specifically), but doesn’t in Windows.
Windows is getting progressively worse.
I still dual boot a very-stripped Windows for games, HDR stuff, and anything that requires a weird driver (like phone tethering), but man, Microsoft just keeps removing or hiding things I use to make Windows sorta functional.
The windows user brain cannot comprehend actually enjoying to use a computer.
But muh games!
yeah this was the thing.
it’s not even about whether linux is ready. windows got sloppy drunk and rode its motorcycle into a brick wall. it’s linux or nothing now.
As a Windows & Linux user, I can, in the same way that I get that car people love working on cars.
I still really don’t ever want to work on cars but I understand.
I largely use technology of any kind for the applications of its use, not because of an intrinsic desire to knee deep in technical work.
It is funny to watch old Windows admins bring all sorts of bad habits to Linux
Like what? Genuinely asking as a Windows user with a few Linux machines.
I have a good inverse example. I started a new job as a government contractor. The machine I get is Windows. I need docker-desktop. I have a basic user account. They install docker-desktop. But it doesn’t work for me because I don’t have permissions. I tell them, hey docker says I don’t have the right permissions. They say, oh you have to apply for an elevated Developer account. Which I wont get because I’m a contractor. This is what you are asking about. The Windows way is just to increase the user’s permissions over the entire system. Which is utter bullshit coming from Linux. Anyways, I know the person helping me is just ignorant. And all they did was, next next next accept. But if you look at docker install instructions, for Linux and Windows, they create a docker user group and you just add your account to it. Super easy, and it’s one line in the terminal if you are on Windows or Linux. Windows admins just assume power user for everybody. No concept of localized security. Anyways, round and round with the back and forth, he finally adds me to the docker user group. And it worked, and I didn’t need to have elevated security or apply for a Developer account, wait two weeks doing nothing on the tax payer dime to only get denied.
File extensions, wanting a GUI for everything, running some random threat detection software, assuming that Linux is lightweight so therefore it will make old machines have modern performance… The list goes on
I find this list weird. I guess I’m the kind of person you’re complaining about!
I like having GUI available for standard stuff (eg.
dconf editoris great for various desktop settings). And I like file extensions in many cases - eg. I like to be able to tell the difference between a.pngand.jpegjust by reading the file name. … And Linux often really does give better performance on older machines compared to Windows.… So I suppose in your eyes I’m basically an old Windows admin brining bad habits to Linux. I’m just not seeing the downside of these ‘bad habits’.
Well, at least for me…
Yeah, I do like me some file extensions.
I want a GUI for some things, but I’m perfectly comfortable with SSH into a machine as well. My general purpose server has a DE on it. My second server has a specific use and has no DE, nor do my IOT devices. All of them are headless.
I have an older laptop with Arch (btw) on it. It runs well for what I use it for. I understand I’m not watching YouTube in 4K though. The CPU and GPU have their limits.
Perhaps they should have tried again sooner
It’s funny how little has changed since 15 years ago
2 days ago, and about 4 different distros to get one that would even load on my laptop with discreet video cards…
Have you tried bazzite? I use it on my laptop with dGPU and it works fine out of the box.
That is the one I finally got to work.
Hell yeah… I’ve been using it for maybe 6 months now and I really like it. OStree took a little getting used to, but I’ve grown to really like the “immutable” concept. Very stable.
And as someone who loves gaming, Bazzite has so much shit pre-installed and pre-configured (or very easily installed/configured) to make that experience better.
Cannot recommend it enough.
