- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
The right has conspiracy hypotheses.
The left has conspiracy theories.
And the right doesn’t know the difference.
iT’s JuSt A tHeOrY bRo. WhErE’s ThE FaCtS?
It’s amazing how they make up whatever meanings they like for words, but can’t handle that the word “theory” has evolved two different meanings based on whether it’s used in a scientific context or not.
There was no uprising in Hungary in 1953. There was one in 1956, but it does not seem that this “Hungarian Freedom Fighters Federation, Inc.” participated in it (I mean, an “Inc.” in socialist Hungary?). And the letter that this text mentions is all the way from 1963.
Can’t you people read the actual text and check whether this all makes any sense? Can’t you just Google one or two key words?
There was no uprising in Hungary in 1953. There was one in 1956
My mistake, I was going off memory and got the year mixed up with the year of Operation Ajax, the Iranian coup.
but it does not seem that this “Hungarian Freedom Fighters Federation, Inc.” participated in it (I mean, an “Inc.” in socialist Hungary?).
Yes, I supposed the fact that the CIA was sponsoring a group called “Hungarian Freedom Fighters” does not definitively prove that it was it was in any way connected to partisan activity in Hungary, the way that CIA funded groups were doing all over the globe at this time. Maybe it was pure coincidence!
What was this group? Do you have any info on when and where it was actually active and what were its intents? Do you know anything about this incorporated (???) organisation aside from its name and that it was supported by CIA in 1963?
the way that CIA funded groups were doing all over the globe at this time
This is not how any historical event can be meaningfully approached. You’re not an oracle, intuitions and insinuations are not proof, please use actual data, show actual connections and explanations of the claims regarding the 1956 revolution.
This is not how any historical event can be meaningfully approached.
Isn’t it? If an organization exists that has the ability to cover up it’s involvement in things like this reliably and very rarely leaves behind hard evidence, and I’m a rando trying to piece together what happened 70 years later, then it seems like circumstantial evidence is the best I could reasonably expect to find. This isn’t a court of law where the standard is either, “100%, beyond any reasonable doubt, or they didn’t do it.”
This shows evidence of a connection - would it be enough to convict in a court of law? No. But, does it shape up to being more likely than not? Seems like it to me. Past precedent shows they could do it and get away with it, and we’ve got their fingerprints near it, so you can keep imagining that this Hungarian Freedom Fighters org connected to the CIA was, I don’t know, selling dinner plates or something, but I’m gonna connect point A to point B myself.
antonim raised a good point, actually. While I wouldn’t put it past the CIA to do something like this, the fact is that this vague document is hardly evidence of the CIA funding the Hungarian revolution. Besides, a historian would be far more qualified to look at archival material since they’re actually trained to do that.
If an organization exists that has the ability to cover up it’s involvement in things like this reliably and very rarely leaves behind hard evidence, and I’m a rando trying to piece together what happened 70 years later, then it seems like circumstantial evidence is the best I could reasonably expect to find.
This is word for word the logic of right wing conspiracy theorists who ascribe every thing they don’t like to Jews.
Have you actually tried to piece it together, though? Have you at the very least googled who these people are, what sort of plausible chronology could be reconstructed, anything? Have you noticed that Kiraly, who was involved in the 1956 revolution and subsequently left the country, lived in US at the time of the letter (1963)? Is it not worthy of considering that the HFFF Inc. was based in the US and was founded by Kiraly and similar Hungarians in exile?
There are people with the exact same resources as you, i.e. the internet, already discussing this seriously and digging for more info and trying to figure out what can be reasonably concluded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHungarian_Revolution_of_1956#JFK_files
This isn’t a court of law where the standard is either, “100%, beyond any reasonable doubt, or they didn’t do it.”
In court of law, an admission is pretty solid proof. Your meme says the involvement was admitted. I guess it wouldn’t look as convincing or funny if the meme said they admitted they funded some organisation outside of Hungary 7 years after the actual event.
you can keep imagining that this Hungarian Freedom Fighters org connected to the CIA was, I don’t know, selling dinner plates or something
Your arguments are growing thin. Your narrative is actually made up of vague connections with a 7-year gap. I don’t even intend to suggest to know what HFFF actually did or whether CIA was involved in 1956 Hungary, my point is only that this is neither admission nor meaningful proof of anything other than that they did fund some dissidents outside Hungary in 1963. (They obviously funded dissidents all over the place throughout the decades, I mean, they’d be crazy not to, and 1956 Hungary wouldn’t surprise me either, I suppose.)
See, while trawling through these JFK files right wingers have already found a connection with Jews, as tenuous as it is, and tout it as solid proof it was them who had JFK killed, because after all we already know Jews are nefarious and evil, and clearly any weak connection to JFK’s death is good enough - of course (((they’ve))) scrubbed the proof, etc. so internet randos can go creative. Or maybe some higher standards for proof would be in order…
This is word for word the logic of right wing conspiracy theorists who ascribe every thing they don’t like to Jews.
Really? Can you name 5 world leaders who were overthrown by a secret Jewish cabal the way I can for the CIA, just off the top of my head? I think, maybe, there might be a little bit of a difference there.
This comparison is so fucking stupid that it ends up being antisemitic, because by equating the two you’re implying that this secret Jewish cabal both exists and has similar power and influence as the most powerful and well funded spy agency on the planet that has a very long and well documented history orchestrating coups and color revolutions and successfully covering up their involvement for decades, that also, you know, actually exists. Get a grip!
In court of law, an admission is pretty solid proof. Your meme says the involvement was admitted. I guess it wouldn’t look as convincing or funny if the meme said they admitted they funded some organisation outside of Hungary 7 years after the actual event
Yes, my meme made use of an existing meme and the phrasing of the original wasn’t 100% accurate. I apologize because my username and avatar seems to have caused some confusion, but this is actually an online meme community and not a court of law.
See, while trawling through these JFK files right wingers have already found a connection with Jews, as tenuous as it is, and tout it as solid proof it was them who had JFK killed, because after all we already know Jews are nefarious and evil, and clearly any weak connection to JFK’s death is good enough - of course (((they’ve))) scrubbed the proof, etc. so internet randos can go creative. Or maybe some higher standards for proof would be in order…
Again, the difference is I can point to countless times where that actually happened with the CIA and they can’t do that with Jews! I stg, it’s like, if I hear about a black person who was found strung up from a tree in the 20’s, I’m gonna go, “Huh, seems like it was probably white supremacists like the KKK” but apparently you’ll then chime in with “wElL hOw Do YoU nNoW iT wAsN’t AsIaN sUpReMaCiStS, hUh?” Because one of them is a real thing that actually existed at that time and place with significant power and a track record of doing that sort of thing repeatedly and getting away with it, and the other is a made up delusion.
Pizzas are flat, and there is a giant bread crust along the outter rim!
Don’t forget pizza and child-eating. It’s a weird thing.
Hillary Clinton has child blood infusions in between the pizza pedophile parties
If they admit to it, is it a theory or a fact?
That’s why it’s in quotes. Things are treated as conspiracy theories and you often sound like a crazy person bringing them up, even if what you’re saying is 100% factual.
Operation Sea Spray
COINTELPRO
MK Ultra
deleted by creator
So cia killed jfk right?
Most of the documents we have were already partially declassified but with redacted parts. We now know more about JFK’s rift with the CIA and how the CIA was wiretapping the area Oswald was working and actively recruiting double agents from there.
Skeptics will continue to treat it as equally insane as saying the moon is made of cheese unless they see an official, released document saying, “Please kill the president for me, sincerely, Alan Dulles,” but there’s about as much evidence as a reasonable person would expect to find in a universe where it happened.
But can we really trust something released by Trump? Sounds like something we would want to hear.
Well, that raises the question of whether we can we trust any documents released by the US in general. If the government killed JFK, would they really tell us, even this many years later?
If you want an actually serious answer as to the who, how and why of the assassination and have three hours to spare, I would recommend Sean Munnger (A leftist university professor of modern political history) far to exhaustive series on the topic. For just the CIA, that starts at the 30min mark of Part 2, but builds a bit on previous debunkings.
Three letters:
LBJ
Nope and the neat part is you can read it all now.
Yup. Manson was also MK Ultra. They allowed him to move between counties in CA while on parole (not a thing at the time) and his “parole officer” wasn’t a parole officer, but a UC system researcher whose field was the use of drugs in meth gangs to turn people violent. The whole Manson family was an orchestrated op to undermine the left.
The whole Manson family was an orchestrated op to undermine the left.
What’s the connection between Mansons and the left?
Hippie vibes
This has apparently been publicly available since at least 2010, because I found it in that year’s edition of A. J. Weberman’s Coup d’etat In America: The CIA and the Assassination of JFK
https://archive.org/stream/CoupDetatInAmerica/NODULE 18 OSWALD IN NEW ORLEANS_djvu.txt
OS INDICES RESULTS:
Laureano Batista, a 32 year old Cuban exile, was from a wealthy Cuban family and in Cuba he was a banker. He was granted a POA in December 1959 and an OA in February 1960 for use as a PP agent in Havana, Cuba.
A copy of a letter in Subject’s file dated November 22, 1963 signed by Subject as Secretary for Military Affairs, Executive Committee, Movimiento Democrata Cristiana (Christian Democratic Movement) is addressed to Major General Bela K. Kiraly, President, Hungarian Freedom Fighters Federation, Inc., and offered the services of the MDC in arranging meetings and discussions with other anti-CASTRO organizations and the Hungarian Freedom Fighters. The Hungarian Freedom Fighters were (deleted) was interested in information on the MDC before granting approval for contact between the two organizations.
So on the one hand, the CIA did some wicked awful shit all over the world, together with the rest of the US government apparatus. MK Ultra, the crack epidemic, all that shit.
That said, while I can imagine the CIA had some eyes on what was happening in Hungary, because both them and the Soviets had eyes everywhere, I don’t see the point that is trying to be made here. That the CIA was funding the revolution? With what? It lasted like two weeks and the fighting was done with captured Soviet and older Hungarian and I guess some German equipment.
The revolution was not against communism, it was specifically against the fucked up economic policy of Rákosi, and not because he was a communist, but because he wanted to transition a country that was basically one contiguous agrarian farmland into heavy industry and steel manufacturing, which led to poverty as it was braindead. We didn’t have the resources, the know-how or the demand. We did have it for agriculture. The revolution was aimed at installing Imre Nagy, the previous communist leader into power, who was originally a farmer, and had a strong agrarian policy.
The guy in question, Dr. Béla Király was indeed a high-ranking Hungarian military officer at the time. He was indeed appointed the commander of the revolutionary forces, and fled to the US after the defence collapsed.
That said, when would have he been enlisted by the CIA? He served in the armed forces on the Axis side as a captain - he earned recognition for disobeying orders and treating the Jewish prisoners assigned to him humanely. He fought until the USSR conquered Hungary, and surrendered to them. He was then absorbed into the People’s Army and was not really trusted since his wife was the niece of Gyula Gömbös, a late fascist-aligned prime minister of Hungary. That said, he was promoted to general because there weren’t a ton of capable and experienced officers back then in the army. Afterwards, when Stalin called off the invasion of Yugoslavia, he got purged with 350,000 other people in Hungary, and spent the rest of the time until the revolution in prison.
So was he enlisted by the CIA:
- as an unremarkable captain of an unremarkable country on the fascist side of WWII (why him?)
- as the commander of Hungary’s contribution to the planned Yugoslavian invasion (the KGB and the ÁVO would have caught that)
- or as a prisoner in the ÁVO’s dungeon (lol)
Even if he was enlisted by the CIA, how would have he planned or contributed to the revolution from the basement of Andrássy 62? He was released a month before as part of an attempt at appeasement to the masses and spent it in hospital because of undernourishment issues from the 5 years he spent there.
Or, as a much likelier explanation, after the revolution, as he escaped to the US as many others did as the US was open to dissidents at the time, he was employed as someone who actually fought the Soviets in guerrilla warfare, and was helping train anti-Castro forces?
