Hi all! This is an alt for anonymity. Please be gentle, this is a hard topic for me to discuss.
I’m a progressive United States citizen who is looking to get out. I’m of Italian descent so I’m working on getting Italian citizenship through jure sanguinis, but it’s going to take some time, if it works at all (gotta substantiate some relations) and won’t extend to my husband until he completes a citizenship test, which he can do after living in Italy for two years.
Here’s my big question: is moving to Italy even a good idea?
I know there’s a significant element of fascism there, but that seems to be the case to varying extents throughout Europe. I’ve visited a few times as a tourist and everyone was very kind. I also have a US cousin that lives there as a permanent resident near Napoli and she is very encouraging, saying people will be welcoming. We don’t want much, just to make a living and maybe have a kid.
Not to hate but what steps have you made to change your current situation? All Europe is moving towards the far right spectrum, if Italy were to be in the same boat are you going to keep on running? Why not try to improve your local community and make a change instead of running away. That’s the main reason why we are in this mess, instead of communities coming together, people leave and the o lay ones left behind are the ones voting for where we are at now.
Life is most certainly better in an Italian city then an America mid tier nothing city.
No hate at all, it’s a good question. We’re both politically active, we even met at a protest lol. We’ve been involved in local politics for over a decade.
We’re now in our thirties and are just tired of the US employment rat race and general political apathy. I’m not going to pretend we’re not being selfish. We’re just tired.
What’s one guy gonna do against 52% of Americans who came together in their communities and expressed the democratic will to choose Fascism?
Unite his community, find like minded people and create a movement to vote these guys out? That’s literally the American dream
That assumes that like-minded people exist in sufficient quantities to do this. If they do, why haven’t they voted already if they do? Why do they need to be told to do something or united at all when OP doesn’t? What’s different between them?
52% of those who voted
In reality, Trump was voted in by around 32% of Americans who are eligible to vote. He’s tearing everything apart with a mandate from 23% of the US population.
Democracy, baby!
You should drop this argument. Those who haven’t voted are assumed to have the same distribution as those who did.
Do you have any evidence to suggest that whatsoever?
Agree. I got downvoted to shit for making this point although, as an outsider, I probably came across as smug or something.
Quasi-compulsory voting is awesome.Republicans turned out at slightly higher numbers than Democrats relative to their representation in the U.S. population (8 points vs. 5 points).
And there’s a lot there suggesting a leftward lean from the independent portion (eg. disproportionately non-white, non-Christian and urban)
Edit: If anyone has a counter argument I’d love to hear it. Its just weird to dismiss the entire massive non-voting bloc in a country with a long history of right wing voter suppression and anemic left wing opposition.
Republicans put a ton of effort into voter restrictions, ostensibly to prevent mass voter fraud which study after study proves does not exist. Why do they go through the trouble?
I’m comparing my options with the US, China, and Japan. All three have their issues but quality of life is much higher in the latter two.
I would consider Italy to similarly have a much higher quality of life which is worth it with all politics aside.
You comment about Italy having been fascist, and I would respond with no matter what you think about the political situation in China life is leagues above that in the US. Point being it would very much be worth it!
I’d vote with Japan tbh. there’s some communities of foreigners that live around Tokyo usually.
That’s our vote too currently :)
Plenty of Chinese and Americans in Tokyo and the best parts of China plus more. Also, a good location between the other two countries. If China didn’t have such a pollution problem it might be a more difficult choice. I really cherish the pristine nature in the US and Japan.
How do you move to china??
For me I would stay with family and apply for a PR. For people in general it’s very easy to come over to work or study.
I’ve dealt with US and Chinese immigration a lot recently and got to say Chinese immigration almost made me cry with how efficient and kind they were versus the US. US took years, hundreds of pages, thousands of dollars, and rude staff. Recently Chinese immigration interaction they only took three days and they called and fixed a mistake for us. They realized I could get a better visa than I applied for and did the paperwork and applied for me without an extra charge.
Hm, maybe I should learn Chinese after German haha
It’s a very cool language. Its grammar is dead easy causing me to think it’s actually not that hard! :)
China is also a very nice place. Two things from my latest visit that are new to me:
One how much Chinese families put children before all else. I always knew this but didn’t experience it until I had my own. It’s so sweet how many random people are kind because you have a child. I rarely experience this in the US.
Two how above and beyond family members go to treat you well. You want to do or consume anything, they treat you to it. Meals made for you. Clothes washed. You’re your parents, or parents in laws, child forever. In America, I find even with the sweetest parents a line is drawn after you turn 18. In China no task is too small for a Chinese parent to do. My love language is spoken but China makes me fully understand how much more meaningful action is. You can say anything but will you actually do anything at a minutes notice?
Just thought I’d share some positive experiences I’ve had :)
Italy has just changed it’s rules on citizenship. You now need to prove you had an Italian parent or grandparent in order to be eligible. Before, there was no generational cut off.
I literally just read about this. There goes that opportunity. Ugh.
Depends on how committed you are to the change.
Here’s the Reddit sub on the issue of citizenship by ancestry: https://www.reddit.com/r/juresanguinis/
Thanks for the link. I don’t understand your comment, though.
You would have to move to Italy and live there for a certain number of years. For you it is probably 10 years continuous residency although as your ancestor was Italian it might be much shorter. To go and live there you would need a visa - a work visa or maybe something like an elective visa (private income so you’re not a burden on the sate), or an investor visa (buying residency).
If you were to have a child while there I don’t know what that would mean. It probably means they would be eligible and you would have the right to stay and look after them. But you would need to carefully assess what that would mean for the child’s statehood and identity.
Thanks for the summary, much appreciated.
Just wanna say warm wishes, share your research if you find anything.
Learn the language as soon as possible, at least basic level. Bureaucracy is going to be hell, there’s no nicer way to put it. But I think you’ll enjoy living in Italy. You are not happy where you are now, so it’s great you’re doing something about it. Best of luck!
If you contribute financially you will find a warmer welcome, I guess
Trump isn’t fascism, it’s authoritarian sure but he’s in it for his own criminal financial gain. For his self enrichment he mobilises the fascist tools of nationalism and division but it isn’t the rigorous ideology of state and society of fascism that he promotes: It’s more of a kleptocratic autocracy. Trump will destabilize the U.S. economy for his own profit, likely shifting reserves into $Trump crypto while China and Russia pick up the pieces. So moving to Italy is an excellent idea. It’s beautiful, the weather’s good, you might well have problems finding well paid work but you’ll eat well - what more could you want!
I’m not too fond of the plenty Americans having the same idea.
Stay there.I mean you don’t have to live in Italy after getting your citizenship they are an EU country with freedom of moment.
True, but my husband does for two years prior to getting his citizenship.
Ah yeah that will be the wrinkle
Not really. Being married to an EU/EEA citizen he’ll get a residence in any of the other ones. But having a full passport will cut down on paperwork in the long term.
Also, it’s nice here in Italy. Come over! The wife and I have been here for 7 years and once the bureaucracy is dealt with it’s (mostly) quite pleasant.
That’s great! We’re trying to be forward thinking with his citizenship. I want to be sure he’s okay if I were to suddenly die or something.
Any recommendations on locations? We’re thoroughly overwhelmed figuring this all out.
Not sure that’s true. As an EU citizen, you can pretty much live anywhere in Europe. Then your husband can apply for spouse visa through you in that country. There are usually a couple of avenues available.
Edit: here’s usually the requirements for staying beyond 3 months as an EU citizen in another country. Then once you get residence, you can apply for residence for your spouse.
For Stays Beyond 3 Months You must meet one of these conditions:
- Be employed or self-employed
- Have sufficient resources and health insurance to support yourself without becoming a burden on the social assistance system
- Be studying with comprehensive health insurance and sufficient resources
- Be a family member of an EU citizen who meets any of the above conditions
I say go for it. You have better luck getting rid of fascism in Europe than you have in the US. Just know that if US influence is waning over this part of the world, it means US democrat as well. And China will likely become the new big influence on the region if not Russia. And such a transition will be very violent.
This is true, if Europe goes fascist the Americans will invade and bring y’all some more freedom. If the United States goes fascist we’re all just screwed.
Italian living in Italy here.
Yes we have fascists but the americans who commented this post ignore a couple things:- our form of government is different from yours, the multi-partisan system helps keeping those things in check;
- Italy is a founding member of EU and is financially depending on it, so even the fascist know that they cannot just do what they want, otherwhise Bruxelles might pull the plug.
Thus said, the problem here is another: jobs. There is a high level of unemployment, expecially among people that don’t work in super specialized environments, like engineering, CS or healthcare, just to make some examples. I have a lot of friends and relatives that had to move abroad just to make a living.
And I mean A LOT: my best friend lives in Australia, my brother in Ireland, literally half of the company I hanged out with as a teenager lives in Holland and I myself lived in Spain for a couple years before getting an opportunity here. So, unless you work one of these jobs I suggest you to priorityze another country.Yes, we very very very strong 🥰 big Forza Bruxelles, Belgians mightiest of all Europe. Our history is countless won battles one after another. We ruled the whole world, you know?
I meant “Bruxelles” as a figurative “European Union” since the EU headquarters are there.
I make it clear because I don’t want to be mistaken for empowering Belgium. /s
Thanks for your response. The multi-party government is exactly what kept us interested in Italy. We can both work remotely, so that’s the plan for income, plus we inherited a bit of money when my husband’s father passed. Nothing huge but we won’t show up destitute.
If you have the possibility to work remotely, this might help a lot.
On a side note, there is something I feel I have to be honest towards you: Jure Sanguinis is a gimmick of the fascist party (they are so fond of Latin names).
They think you have more right to be Italian if your grandfather left the country, because it was a shit place job-wise as it is now, and you know fuck all of our culture than if you lived here your whole life, perfectly integrated, went through school here, work here, pay taxes here but just happened to be born in another country: a friend of mine from Albania had to jump through incredible hoops and managed to get citizenship at 26 despite living here since she was fucking 2 y.o.
Do what you will with this information.
You do realize you’re attempting to move to the country that invented fascism in an attempt to…escape fascism?
They aren’t too far behind us on the backslide either atm
they’re ahead of us; they’ve had a fascist leaders for a couple of years and have already legally disenfranchised many.
There is a fascist party in power there rn
We are also the first country that got rid of fascism 😉
you’re aware that italy is ahead of us in the fascism timeline, right?
No self-coup happened yet, most constitutional freedoms are still respected, there are no political extra-judicial arrests (or at least not that many). Except for some repression of communitarian spaces and public protests, it is not sensibly different from any center/center-right neoliberal government.
if by “self-coup” you referring to trump’s election; they did the same thing with their own fascists and their parliament helped in the same way that our congress helped and their repression is also focused on lgbt arena’s like ours is; but goes well beyond minor policy changes and it’s here where they’ve gone further down the fascism timeline than we have.
I’m talking about a private individual invading the physical and digital spaces of public institutions with the president providing political cover and stopping other parts of the state to intervene. That’s a self-coup. Nothing like that happened in Italy and so far the government is operating within legality.
and it’ll become just as legal here if anyone ever tried to challenge it in the courts; this seems like a tiny technicality to me.
No, that’s still just a normal coup of congress’s authority
Yeah but their velocity is much much lower atm.
how so?
Outside of losing a war, I’m not sure of any civilization that’s changed as hard and fast as America is at the moment. And it’s only going to get worse as the economy crashes.
the united states is part of a civilization that’s changing more rapidly than the rest of it and even then, only its privileged classes; italy’s another part of western civilization that has also changed in the same manner and to a further degree than americans have (so far).
Hi, Italian here
Italy, like many European countries, had strong social-democratic foundations. Many state jobs, strong state education, one of the best state healthcares out there, strong labour laws with contracts made by unions with specific job sectors.
That’s now mostly on paper, and things change significantly from region to region. For example Emilia Romagna is still pretty strong on those, but go to the south and you’ll see state school buildings being closed because they might collapse, or not offering any heating or A/C for the kids. Public healthcare is now very understaffed in most regions.
As for labour laws, companies aren’t exactly too happy giving the expected raises or following work hours, and unskilled jobs are a disaster of underpay and unpaid overtime.
In general, social cohesion is hit or miss. Sure,most people are welcoming and friendly, but many of them are not paying all of their taxes. You’re friends with the person in front of you, not with your whole nation.
Now that I broke some of the possible expectations: yes it’s a good idea to come here. With time you will find some job, especially in the north and centre regions, just prepare for high rents in big cities and you’ll be fine. Oh and possibly find somebody to help with taxes. If you decide for Rome, Napoli or Palermo, don’t drive right away, take your time to learn how people drive here, what to expect etc
Moving to another country, especially when the native language is not English, that’s a massive challenge. It’s important that you’re going there for a positive reason. Otherwise you could have chosen anywhere, right? So your motivation to be a community member there would be low. So don’t just run away from Musk. Find other goals and reasons to aim for Italy.
Also, every country and city has some assholes loving in it. Not everyone is very kind. That’s life.
