- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
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More men should read The will to change by bell hooks. Patriarchy hurts men in different ways than it does women, we are all oppressed by it, including gender-nonconforming individuals. Patriarchy stunts male emotional health and creates these unhealthy repressed feelings. Rather than blaming women, men should look towards the systems that impact our daily lives and how they force us into little boxes we don’t always fit neatly into naturally, suffocating us and justifying the general subjugation of women, which in no unclear terms exceeds the suffering of men under patriarchy.
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Appreciate the key points!
hooks suggests that men need to develop a more nuanced and inclusive understanding of masculinity, one that values emotions, relationships, and mutual respect.
Yep, written by a woman. Replace that with “value traversing rivers on couches strapped to floats and having a blast with the pals” and you’ll get somewhere.
Valuing something already is an emotion so you’re being emotional about being emotional about something so, yeah, no. Go climb a tree, create a tasty recipe, fix a shoe. Shave the soap.
Fr. A male friend of mine got into make up. Nail polish and such. I notice men who do this, stick to safe black. I asked if he wanted more colour, and he did. I remember cracking being a thing back in 2008 or so. A great caviat to go from just black, to black with colour! Perhaps men could bring this back into fashion lol
It is so fucking odd, how many people are claiming that e.g. the male loneliness issue is blaming women and then agree with your post.
I agree with your post. I just don’t understand how so many people here can agree that the patriarchy is harming men and is e.g. isolating men, but then turn around and act like mentioning the symptoms and talking about them, makes you misogynistic.
I don’t get it. Women have my support, I just hope I will have theirs too.
I support mens health.
Ive a million stories of hurt men who didnt deal or heal well with their hurt, and ended up hurting others (and themselves) for it. Usually its some tragic thing that happened when they were young and never dealt with it, because culturally men have been told to shove it down and man up for decades at least. But, I’ve been told many a tragedy from male family members, friends and ex lovers. And then watched them go from victim to abuser, or some other consequence, and its sad
Men should be taught, and allowed to express themselves. Its literally okay to cry, its a process of emotion.
Support fellow humans
I appreciate you taking the time to suggest steps for a better society. I followed the link and read what was available, but there were only a few pages until the index + the front and back cover. I’ll probably look into finding a full copy later. Thanks for thinking about us. <3
I'd like to share my personal story if that's ok. Wall of text incoming and only read if you genuinely want to.
I want to share this because I have an honest question from a place of wanting to be a better person. I realize this isn’t about me, but in order for me to be in service of people other than myself, it is necessary for me to understand some things. I’m respectfully requesting help with that, to you or those willing to educate.
The second part of the meme hits really close to home to me because it’s something lots of men are taught at a young age in a traumatic manner. In my case I can’t count the amount of times I was told to “be a man” or asked if I was “gonna cry like a girl” which could happen literally anywhere by anyone, especially caretakers.
I went to an all boys school. I vividly remember the father of one of my classmates coming to talk to the class when my classmate missed school one day. He begged. Literally, begged to the class to stop teasing and bullying his son because he was going to kill himself any day. This was the 8th grade and was not a one time thing. He was a sensitive kid and got teased for it. He got called the f word a lot in a place and time where coming out of the closet as sexually diverse was considered “valid” grounds for physical violence/abuse by most men. Verbal abuse at the very least.
I was a weird and sensitive kid myself and got teased and bullied as well, but never that much. Was really timid, awkward and shy, but I usually got away with not being beaten up all the time or being straight out emotionally tortured all day like some were, by letting other kids cheat off me. This got me “protection” from some bullies that sat next to me. When I think about how I felt back when I was a kid, all I can remember is fear and wanting to be invisible. Constant fear. I had a whole lot of anger too, but usually lashed out on myself alone. Too scared of everything and everyone to get angry at anyone but myself. My family setting wasn’t a picnic either, but that’s a different story.
Basically, any time anyone gave me any kind of attention, including my parents, I perceived it as a dangerous threatening situation that made me feel uneasy.
I realize most people have been wronged by one or more men in much worse ways. I’m sorry and those of us who have harmed or still harm have no excuse. I shared my story so you understood what became my responsibility and duty to unlearn and remedy to not continue the endless samsara of victimization. I genuinely have been putting in the work I’ve found useful to help me stop causing people harm. Have taken this very seriously for more than decade now.
Here’s my question, in honest good faith.
Do you understand that a book that is intended to be used as a blueprint for positive masculinity that begins by requiring men to “understand patriarchy” can feel, to some men, like when catholic missionaries went to “uncivilized cultures” and made sure everyone “understood the gospel” and was very clear about having original sin and being impure and them needing to be saved?
This is not a rhetoric device I want to use against you or anyone. I am requesting empathy and suggestions on how to deal with this. Like, do you understand that it feels like some people are telling us men that we are devoid of value or have no legitimacy as humans unless we adhere to a specific belief system or “treatment”? Do you have any advice or suggestions for us or idk can you offer insight?
I realize many broken people such as myself and my classmates can become full grown monsters and society should do something that avoids monsters being bred and to treat, lock or remove people that have become monsters.
I just want to know if you understand this, and if you do, my request is you please share your thoughts.
Having read your story, I think you’ll actually love what bell hooks has to say, here. When I said patriarchy affects men and women in different ways, your story is exactly what I mean. Patriarchy puts men into very narrow boxes of what is deemed “acceptable,” and destroys what is outside that boundary. Women are impacted more by patriarchy than men are, but The will to change is a call to action to liberate both women and men from its shackles. It’s a deeply empathetic work that touches on stories very similar to yours, not a condescending authority piece. hooks writes with a deep love and a desire for herself to grow as well, frequently she speaks of her own mistakes and negative feelings towards men such as her father, and how she came to forgive and love him.
Trust me, you’ll love this book by the sounds of it.
Thanks for reading. Gonna look it up right now.
No problem! As a pansexual man myself, who was often bullied relentlessly for being sensitive myself (I was closeted my whole life through schooling and am only recently coming out more), I never felt like hooks was invalidating my experience in any way.
I’m really sorry about what you has to deal with in your past. <3
I’m about 1/6th through the book now and feel the same way.
I mean, if i’m being perfectly honest, i feel like the term “patriarchy” is a little unfair but also I get why it would be chosen and a necessary concept to build from. I guess I feel like no one sex or gender built society on their own and the suggestion of attribution by nomenclature feels like a misleading simplification. This is not something that i’ll lose sleep over, though, and i’m open to hearing out why i’m wrong.
Gonna get back to the book now. It really is a compassionate message. Thanks again.
Glad I could be of help!
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I liked it a lot! I know people talk about the patriarchy a lot, and thus a lot of what it puts forward isn’t “new,” but the depth hooks goes in on the various facets of patriarchy specifically really helps a lot.
More sociological insights from the keen minds who teach us you need a small penis to like sports cars.
I think that’s the definition of a straw man. Anyone correct me if I’m wrong.
A better example for a straw man argument would be OPs picture, as it essentially proclaims “all lonely males are just shit people and it’s their fault!”.
What?
Anybody can create a meme, but too many people get too much of their “information” from them.
I mean, ok but I’m not really sure what you mean still. Who are you referring to? I mean it could be many people I suppose, but it usually depends on the memes they’re consuming.
lets be honest, people who need a large gender affirming car are fun to laugh at.
need a large gender affirming car
???
This is a projection of your own brainrot sexism, nothing more.
Don’t try to make it sound like you ever mocked a woman for having a large car, either, you’re not fooling anyone with “people”, lol.
oh no, I offended a conservative, the most easily offended demographic.
why don’t you go listen to some podcasts and cry about it
You said something stupid, and it was identified as such. That’s not being offended.
Though the fact that you had to assume several things about me personally to rationalize the way you behave, as your ego is apparently just too fragile to conceive of the possibility that YTA, says a lot, and makes me wonder if you’re available in IMAX.
Not as laughable as the assumption that “needing a large gender affirming car” was the actual reason someone bought a car, without knowing anything about them except that they’re male. Maybe that proves psychic powers are real too!
way to many massive trucks look like they never touched actually work and are used for commute.
no need for that, and truck owners like them because they are manly, so basically gender affirming cars
Couldn’t agree more, but if you think about it…
I wish we could all come together from all gender identities, nationalities, political affiliations, social strata, educational background, skin color, hair color, favorite music style and belief system and just accepted that while circumstances are different for every one of us, there are a few really bad people, a few really good people and a lot of people that just need to feel like they belong to something in all of those dimensions.
But I guess if we did that, how would the really bad people get their votes or money from us?
I hope toxic men stop being toxic and I’m sorry to everyone that has ever been hurt by a toxic man.
toxic men
Kinda sad and ironic, that the term “toxic masculinity” began as a way to describe how culture manufactures a harmful concept of what it means to be a man, and it seeps into men and damages them like a toxin… but now we use it to mean that the man himself is toxic, undermining the whole notion of thinking of the problem as systemic rather than one of individuals.
Anyway, patriarchy is absolutely demolishing men right now, and the political right is saying “women’s fault” while the left is saying “lmao skill issue”. If we don’t get our shit together and start treating this seriously, we’re gonna have big problems.
The problem with the term “toxic masculinity” is what exactly can we describe as “positive” masculinity? Is masculinity only toxic, or are there positive things that aren’t feminine?
Considering what is “masculine” is a societal construct, so the things I can think of are like: holding the door open for others, walking with people positioning yourself by the road, those sorts of “if something happens, I hope my charred corpse keeps my loved one alive” morbid acts, or in general putting yourself last on purpose.
I don’t know why you’re describing my mother as masculine but she apologises
So… chivalry?
You folk should really check out Jung.
I am of the belief that masculinity and femininity are social constructs, but that they are also not only social constructs and nothing else.
There’s a lot of interesting work around this in studies/interpretations around Jungian archetypes. Structure, courage, strength, independence, rationality, leadership and assertiveness are virtues/traits that are generally (but not exclusively) associated to masculinity. Charm, empathy, collaboration, compassion, humility, intuition, sensitivity, beauty, style and introspection are typically associated to the feminine (but not exclusively).
In essence, i read somewhere (i think an old Tarot book iirc), that which is masculine imposes and confronts, while that which is feminine contains and nurtures. Seemed to make sense, to me anyway.
edit: A quick clarification is that these are typically, at least under the Jungian and broad oriental notions, not considered mutually excluding opposites, just polarizing forces. Like broad, vague and intersecting maps of associations. The Ying Yang symbol illustrates this well. Each side has a part of the other side within itself, and each one needs the other in order to exist.
Are you under the impression I’m conveying there is no problem?
No, not really. I didn’t downvote you btw.
Edited my original comment to avoid suggesting that.
thanks! appreciate it! I understand your point now too.
“Toxic” has a wide range of uses outside just toxic masculinity or just describing men. One of the side effects of a very therapized society is wider recognizing that some people in your life are dragging you down because their behaviour is unhealthy for all parties. Before the reaction groomed mostly into women but men to a lesser degree was to shut up, take the abuse, take the hit to the psyche, self doctor yourself using coping mechanisms that don’t address the problem directly and endure because the pressure was on being a dutiful, selfless sibling, child, partner, parent, friend etc.
Describing people as “toxic”, while like any tool can be used wrongly or hurtfully gives people a tool to shake themselves out of that cycle. When used properly it empowers people to take their own status and wellbeing seriously when they are being taken for granted, abused or bullied so that they can source the problem and engage with people in a way that wins them their agency back. When we talk about “Toxic men” isn’t effectively any different than talking about “toxic siblings” or “toxic friends” or “toxic parents” or “toxic narcissists” The only ways it differs is in the behaviour dynamics of the group in question. These people are all uniquely “toxic” but in each of those cases you probably gain a different picture of what that toxicity looks like. Those are not individuals, they are groups within our cultures the reclassification of which is systemic. What needs to be emphasized is that in all cases nobody should be forced into a relationship of any kind, friend, family or romantic. There is a society wide push for true emancipation of the individual free to establish and demolish social ties based on the merit of the tie.
In some ways this loneliness epidemic we’re experiencing may in part be due to this renegotiation of relationships in a bid to make things better overall. One could argue the development of an expectation for too perfect boundaries is maybe a contributing factor but overall the attitude across the board is “enough is enough” and that isn’t nessisarily a bad thing. If people are not forced into connections at a systemic level they can apply consent and engineer for everyone the understanding that people either must act at the very least decently if not kindly and with respect if they want deep connection.
So much of the discussion around the subject of toxic masculinity devolves into either the idea the people critiquing the behaviour are being mean towards and victimizing men but all discussions of toxic behaviours are not about victimizing the perpetrators, it’s about advocating for better conditions for the targets.
I want the Star Trek Utopia too. With MAGA rise it pushed it back probably a generation or two. Still think it’s about 300 years off. Maybe 500.
Heh. I actually hope you’re right. I don’t even believe in utopias anymore.
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Appreciate the support! <3
I mean everyone gets allergic from time to time but a thoughtful person will see this and adjust.
I guess It’s hard for people to feel empathy towards those who they identify as the culprits of their suffering. And since, as humans, we have trouble separating the blame of individuals with the blame of the tribes they belong to… yeah, some people consider men the problem with an occasional “but not you/him” just like some other people consider feminism/sts the problem with an occasional “but not this part/these ones”.
I think hit the nail on the head, though. It’s important for all of us to remind ourselves compassion and empathy regularly, even when difficult, because as many gender theorists and feminists have taught us, some people don’t adhere to social norm or convention. Understanding this is understanding that blaming a full demographic for anything is not only unfair and lazy, it also leads to the very worst in all of us.
Have a great day and stay awesome!
if the problem is that men have loneliness issues i have a solution.
it’s men, more than one, become friends.
is there a issue with modern social alienation caused by individual atomisation? yes.
should we focus on it? yes
does it mean that women owe them sex? fuck no,
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Reading this, specifically had me think of an old friend i had. He was always sceming. Every time i saw him he had a new one. Weather he was stealing company supplies from his employer, so he could start his own landscaping business, or asking me to use my doordash account, or wanting me to help him start a flower business, which i never helped with any of it because i dont agree with lying/cheating through life, while every bit of his life seemed some backdoor plan- I would have dated him, once apon a time, but ten years into the friendship, he sent me a ben Shapiro video, a d a few years ago, i terminated the friendship. Every thing was transactional with that man. He was good looking and kind, but my god these traits were such a turn off, I dont care if you work at hime depot, or the hardware store- my husband today is a chef- its better than scheming to rip someone off so you can get ahead. Thats selfish imo.
A lot of women find empathy sexy. The women who only go for alpha males are the ones you usually want to avoid.
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Most people can pull a trigger.
It’s kind of a thing in certain animals, but not wolves like originally claimed. The certain animals here being mostly primates, so it’s even more applicable.
That said, the politics of social primates are notoriously complex and many cultures have unique behaviors within the species, so there aren’t really any universal rules particularly among the most social groups.
TBH, Silverbacks are actually good role models: Big, bulky, sit around grooming the troupe, know everyone, emotionally support everyone, when someone wants to start a fight, intervenes, “You wanna fight? Yeah, fight me! Both of you at once, if need be!” – and then suddenly the others lost interest in fighting.
Proverbial gymbro speaking softly and carrying a big stick, far from a tyrant, you know the type. Chimpanzees are the closest to us, with warfare and everything. Bonobos are… well, they are what biologists start talking about when they want to get into your pants. Let’s just say there’s a reason you don’t see them in zoos, parents don’t want to hear kids asking those kinds of questions.
Isn’t it weird that for humans, sex is a private matter? Completely singular among all the animals. And that’s independent of social status, like a smaller sea lion seducing a female one while the big hunk de jure leading the pack isn’t looking, it’s universal. Even if sex is a group activity, then that group itself is putting up layers of privateness and propriety. Swinger clubs with fancy dress codes, doesn’t matter if you end up naked but you have to start out in suit and tie.
If a scientist would, today, discover humanity and describe their behaviour they’d be laughed out of any conference, “did you get your notes mixed up”. “Next thing you want to tell us camelopards are real”.
To add onto that, the guy that originally published the “alpha male” study spent a lot of time trying to correct public views and publish corrective studies because he discovered the behavior was only in wolves kept in captivity. IIRC.
No, they are biologically real, despite it being obsolete nomenclature iirc. Alpha doesn’t equate to “good” though. Just dominance.They exist in most if not all tournament species, but not so much in pair bonding apecies.
You can determine what category species fall under just by looking at average size differences of male and female skulls/other bone.
This provides a ton of information about mating habits, intersexual aggression, likelyhood of infidelity, role of males in raising kids and whole lot more.
Humans are in am evolutionary transition period from tournament to pair bonding.
All that being said, the traits selected to determine alphas can be about aggression and dominance and they can be about beauty, collaboration and territorial. Thia gets complex in birds and primates.
Alao, whatever strategy has the best chances of successfully reproducing and surviving through time does not automagically become legitimate, valuable or desireable. You need an extra ingredient for that. Priorities, which require value.
I’m currently a stay at home husband who does all the cooking, cleaning and dishes.
Easy to throw stones when you’re not the one responsible for keeping the lights on.
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You are.
The main problem being that they’re cheapskates and won’t lift a finger for anything not directly benefitting themselves. They don’t know how to cook, and learning anything unrelated to their jobs is seen as a “waste of time”
Maybe they’re stuck trying to get ahead in their career and don’t have the mental energy to focus on anything else. Most single dudes I know are focused on their careers because where they’re at doesn’t meet their needs or isn’t enough to meet their goals even if the goal is as simple as just owning a home and be able to retire someday.
If your goals in life start and end with personal wealth, you should expect stones thrown at you. Not sure what else you’re expecting with that level of egotism.
It’s not wealth I’m after. It’s security. I want to be able to reach a point in my life where I don’t have to give 50+ hours of my time every week to some fucking company that doesn’t give a shit about me just to barely scrape by on rent and groceries. I can’t do that from where I’m so I have to save money wherever possible and build my career. Congrats to the guy I responded to for finding someone willing and capable of providing for him but most of us aren’t going to be so fortunate.
Let me be more blunt about this.
You’re going to die. No matter how much money you make, no matter whether you own your own house or not, no matter whether you can buy whatever food you fancy, you are going to die.
If you’re spending your life just thinking about how to make more money, your life is pointless. Do something better with it.
What do you propose I do? I already said I’m fucking broke. I have no space of my own to do hobbies. I can’t afford to travel. I go out with my friends a couple times a month and that kills my spending budget because everything is expensive now. I just had to buy a laptop and get my car worked on (again because I don’t have a space of my own to do it myself) and just that wiped out six months of savings. How can I think about anything but money when if I take my eye off the ball I’ll be fucked?
Surely you would learn to cook your own food if you are a cheapskate? It’s so much cheaper making your own, I had to through necessity for a long time. While I already knew a few recipes I generally couldn’t afford them when I moved out. Beef mince? Hah! Not a chance.
Turns out making your own sourdough pizza from scratch is crazy cheap. Cheese is the most expensive part.
Right on my dad was my stay at home parent when I was little and he was a green beret in Vietnam. He was by far my most nurturing and loving parent. I was very lucky to have had him
There is nothing universally sexier than knowing exactly who you are and being perfectly satisfied with it. Good for you, man. Congrats for the bun in the oven too. <3
There really is a bit of a catch-22 in my book that’s centered completely around self confidence. If you are proud of who you are, if you are living up to your ideals, you are simultaneously much more attractive to others, and at the same time you realize that you don’t need others - but they sure are the cherry on top.
Pygmalion is real. Belief is a powerful thing. Some may even call it “faith”.
This is why hope is important.
Lemmy is full of misogynists, so good luck posting these. Fight the good fight
Isn’t the meme misandrist?
No, and further, who cares? Misandry isn’t a problem compared to misogyny, and likely wouldn’t exist if there was no misogyny as it tends to be an emotional reaction to misogynistic abuse by men.
Misogyny, however, is the status quo, men learn enforcement of misogyny through other men (and sometimes women) and their testosterone and beliefs/choices keeps them enforcing (per Sapolsky, T doesn’t cause aggression but enforcement). Any dissent by women against misogyny is dismissed, as the system itself is self protective against dissent and nebulous “feminity,” whatever that may be (eg by today’s standards, Jesus, just looking at him on a sidewalk, codes as a poss transwoman or NB in his dress and with his long hair). The goalposts of “woman bad” are therefore moved by other men to manipulate men behaviorally and economically. They kill and rape their own families for misogyny. They go to war for misogyny. A system of oppression they uphold even to their own detriment.
Misandry, on the other hand, is women responding to this system and being so traumatized that they literally hate all men, because of how men treat them in their enforcement of misogyny which leads to enslavement of women and removal of autonomy. Misandry doesn’t do that to men. Men have never been forbidden from owning land unless they find a man to enslave them and rape them for life.
Literally that’s what the threat of misogyny and marriage brings- I, the man, will hoard safety and resources and make the world unsafe with my actions, as a direct threat to women if they don’t want to fuck me and be enslaved to me. I will force women into proximity with me or those women can just die.
Misandry however, is more like, I will defend myself against men, all men are evil (heuristic that isn’t totally accurate), I will use force to defend myself against men including verbal attacks, refusing to caretake, and physical attacks. I will live without men because of their harm to me and others. Men will have to find their own societies and comfort in each other.
See how misandry isn’t trying to force a whole gender into enslavement? Unlike misogyny which not only is trying to do so including with current policies being passed in the US, but has already done so in the past?
They aren’t equivalent. Whatabout misandry when misogyny is and has always been the biggest issue of control at a societal level AND individual level is wild and shows that you are a misogynist yourself fyi.
I, the man, will hoard safety and resources and make the world unsafe with my actions
Mr. President, is that you?
Yes, he is an obvious example of a misogynist
Misandry isn’t a problem compared to misogyny, and likely wouldn’t exist if there was no misogyny
This is what peak anti-male sexism looks like.
“Who cares?” Yeah, not your pathetic, empathy-free ass, you’ve made that abundantly clear.
For shame.
Men don’t deserve empathy.
And it’s not peak anti-male sexism, lol you soft cupcake
Men don’t deserve empathy.
What a frustrated poor little creature you seem to be.
You’re entitled to the emotional labor of others?
Men don’t deserve empathy.
You’re sexist scum.
No, and interesting you choose to throw a tantrum when I won’t perform emotional labor for you that you feel entitled to. I don’t do shit for you.
Tho, I think your comment shows that you are a misandrist, with how you are trying to justify, downplay and even lowkey promoting it.
Anyway, not going to argue much about it here, since you seem to a misandrists who calls anyone who disagrees with your pov as a misogynist
Again, who cares? Men are literally enslaving and killing us all. Who even has time to be upset at misandry?
absolutely, but apparently such a concept “doesn’t exist.”
Is it ok to say I love that you’re using that reference as your username?
I agree great username xF
Yes :)
Well I do because it’s awesome. Personally I’m more of a Volume 2 guy, but also enjoy the masterfully subtle metaphors on Volume 1.
Yes. You can’t explain women’s pain to those who masturbate to it.
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It’s an incel meme, thus the clown makeup he applies to himself. I think people are reading this as a literal flow chart, instead of a parody
Woah, woah, woah… Easy there Casabonita.
When you say “look after”, like every how many weeks are you suggesting we brush our teeth? i don’t want to spend half my budget on toothpaste. My cryptos aren’t doing great.
But when you say “show respect” I get it but like how much time do I have to wait until i can stare at their cleavage? Or like… idk what’s the code word I have to use so they feel respected and provide me with cleavage staring time? I guess what I’m trying to ask is… regarding this hypothetical “person” I “respect”, what are the exact verbal and nonverbal steps I must follow in order for them to immediately perform my fantasies but me not provide anything that requires any kind of emotional, physical, financial or creative effort at any given point and how do I make them think I am willing or able to conceptualize them as “real people”?
If you could just link me the cheat sheet you use that would actually help a lot. ty
And you are also an ignorant idiot and an asshole. The lack of empathy and understanding here is absolutely baffling.
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Lol but you’re supposed to heed the call to hate women
My dude, you are the one here basically claiming that the only reason men are lonely is them being bad hygiene women haters. It’s literally misogynistic.
Blaming a societal breakdown of connection and interaction on men is just as misogynistic as blaming it on women. Stop being a part of the problem.
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You know what else is an epidemic? Violence against women and girls
Men and boys are victims of violence at an order of magnitude greater frequency, you just don’t care because you hate males, so only female suffering bothers you.
If this meme was focused on incel-dom then i would agree with you, but it literally states “there is a loneliness epidemic”, and trying to imply that people who are lonely are incels is outright wrong. Many men (and also women) are lonely, but not because they don’t “have the basics right”, nor do they blame women in any way. Societal loneliness is a real and growing problem that affects more than incels.
“You should smile more!”
Whew Lad, you must be projecting.
I’m a man, I’m lonely. Why? Because I spent the last 30 years building a career and my social circle is tiny. My personal hobbies and interest took a back seat to building my company, helping my wife through a 2nd and then 3rd Masters Degree, and raising my Son.
Personal Hygiene? Showered at least every day. Dress Well? I’m in collars, slacks, and dress shoes at least 5 days a week. Smell Good? Yeah, got it covered. Smile? Yeah, got it covered. Show Respect? Yeah, got it covered. Practice Good Manners? Pretty rich coming from you.
Go outside and stop blaming women for everything.
You have a child’s understanding of the world around and lack empathy. Go read a book.
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Your idea of empathy is why the Andrew Tates of this world can thrive. Worthless sentimentality and obsession with civility rather than seriously challenging toxic ideology. It’s the liberal way.
OK, but you’re not actually offering a materially viable alternative to any of the underlying systemic issues that cause either of those problems.
It is also the liberal way to challenge bad ideas, as ideas only and not actually do anything about the underlying material causes & incentives that produce those ideas.
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Kick the bastard misogynist influencers off social media platforms and educate young men on having healthy relationships with others starting from school age.
Correct.
Systemic issues is a very vague concept. What causes young men to latch onto misogyny. Poverty? Mental health issues? Lack of meaningful employment options? Or do we circle back to blaming it on women and feminism again?
The two fundamental things that drive misogyny among men are the intensity of inequality between men themselves (more specifically, the degree to which men with property can assert themselves over men without property), and the degree to which men can be integrated into some kind of productive social relationship with other men & women.
Very few men actually start with the premise that “Women are Dishwashers.” That’s a political claim that they arrive at after consistently losing out to other more socially, or economically successful men, and subsequently internalizing their position in that dynamic as immutable natural law.
You’re not the person the meme is targeting. Way to ignore the first 3 panels.
You are correct, this wasn’t targeted at me and I didn’t fully absorb the content before replying to it. I’m going through a rough patch and it clouded me for a bit.
Should we also show “empathy” to Klansmen who joined up because they claim to feel disenfranchised by society?
There’s a chasm of difference between empathizing with a Klansman and empathizing with people who followed a normal, and I use that word loosely, cultural track. The two are so distinctly different that comparing them is absurd.
Your idea of empathy is why the Andrew Tates of this world can thrive.
That guy and the way he lives his life are disgusting, do not associate me with them.
Should we also show “empathy” to Klansmen who joined up because they claim to feel disenfranchised by society?
Well, yes. No qualifiers. Full stop. Ask anybody who’s successfully done it. Arno Michaelis is particularly good at turning white supremacists back to the light because he was one, and knows the mindset.
Changing somebody’s mind and world-view always starts with listening empathetically. What you don’t offer is sympathy for abhorrent beliefs. It’s hard to make the distinction, but that old saw about education granting the ability to hold a notion in one’s mind without accepting it is relevant. I would argue that maturity means learning to offer kindness while maintaining strong personal and moral boundaries. Self-righteous fury might feel good, but it’ll never get through to a Klansman, or an incel.
So, yes, you have to show empathy, but certainly not a pat on the back. Those are two different things. It’s hard to hold the line between them at times, but it’s the only way to effectively reach people with backwards belief systems. Frankly, I feel like a lot of people would rather be self-righteous than effective, because it’s easier and feels good, and that’s what I see in the too-common conflation of understanding with approval.
It is telling that you took, “stop blaming women for everything” personally to the point that you decided to insult them.
Do some self-criticism.
Removed by mod
Please, can you explain me what “.ml” is for? It is for “male” or something like that?
Edit: I do not know a lot about Lemmy Instances. I only use lemmy.world and mujico.org.
i think its more than just women
This is just a toxic gender wars meme. Go outside, touch some grass, meet someone nice and move on with life. Memes like this come from and perpetuate the loneliness epidemic.
Couldn’t agree more, matey :)
Accurately observing that the “male loneliness epidemic” is self-inflicted bullshit isn’t “toxic gender wars” except if you are a right wing traitor lunatic.
Edit: if you genuinely believe there is a male loneliness epidemic that is not self-inflicted, you deserve a whole lot worse than prison.
> capitalism
> self-inflictedSure, bud.
Lmao is a worthless traitor dumbfuck trying to pretend that capitalism is the root cause of “male loneliness”? That’s some bottom of the barrel thinking even for incels. Reminds me of the braincel shitbag who said women should be redistributed via Marxism. Shore bud indeed, traitor.
Alienation. Exploitation. Heard of it?
Capitalism has bereft men even of the patriarchal provider role as there’s no fucking time in the day to earn both rent and have any type of social interaction, much less time to reflect on your approach to life. Your position as a gear churning out profit for the bosses has been meticulously designed and drilled into you while you were a kid, blind obedience instilled by teachers and BS “zero tolerance punish the victim” rules. There is no use for you aside from that assigned role, happiness, connection, community, work//life balance? Don’t make a profit. Get out of here with that commie nonsense we have quarterly figures to hit.
Or, maybe, yes, you do have a point: I should have said late-stage capitalism. The internal contradictions are actively eroding it by now.
That’s not at all what people mean at all. Men are not more alienated than any other gender by capitalist lunacy. This “male loneliness epidemic” is a euphemism for late stage male supremacy.
You’re right after that comes the patriarchal, or just gendered, double-whammy: Women culturally do have more of a support network, even just in the “friends hanging out” way, as the male “do things together, chop wood, go fishing” is regarded as work, not leisure, and thus co-opted by capitalism: “What do you need to chop food and fish for, go buy fuel and food are you poor or something”. Thus all the productive time men have is spent in a hierarchical worker-boss environment, never “pals doing stuff”, cue loss of connection, alienation from broader society, loneliness. Going bowling? Time not spent hustling, you’re a loser. That’s your mind on patriarchal capitalism.
Thus, even if the starting conditions inflicted by capitalism are, for the sake of argument, completely even, it still hits men harder when it comes to loneliness. Women are more affected in other ways. This isn’t an olympics, it’s analysis of the material conditions we live under.
Wow yikes. You sound like fun at parties. Go find someone to care about.
For the record, I think there is a loneliness epidemic for both genders.
Empathy being both a weakness and a sin…
What more proof do you need that America is a failed state?
The guys saying the top three things aren’t necessarily the same as those saying the bottom thing. But there is definitely some overlap. Which is depressing. Though, I mean is that really that surprising given the state of the world and how stupid the average person is?
The loneliness epidemic also effects women. We’re all more lonely and miserable these days. I think really men and women are alienated from each other in large numbers due to internet brain rot. And being too broke to do anything outside except like… go to a public park or a library or something.
The shitty rightwing politics comes after, the average person is too stupid to not get immediately sucked into manipulative rightwing grift when they’re painfully lonely.
I say this as I consume internet brain rot myself. Though at least its on Lemmy and not Tik Tok, Reddit, or Facebook, and its during work, not my free time.
But going to the park or beach is fun. My first date with my partner was drinking cider on a park bench by a river.
My first date with ny husband we went on a walk on a trail near our home. We walked for 6 hours lol
Not everyone loves meandering around a park or beach. Though I’ll admit its good for our brains to do so. It always feels like a chore to me, I get bored.
Also was it alcoholic cider? That would explain why it was fun.
Also those places aren’t really great for meeting people and even then you don’t want to make those locations the only dating locations.
Cider is always alcoholic in the UK unless specifically sold as low alcohol. Typically first dates are not the same place you first meet someone.
Typically first dates are not the same place you first meet someone.
I know, but that there aren’t a lot of places to meet people in person without spending a bunch of money is a major problem and meeting people online to date sucks.
boss makes a dollar,
i make a dime,
that’s why i Lemmy
on company timeBest time to do anything is company time.
god this place is full of incels. grow a pair. real men don’t whine and blame other people. real men take responsibility and find solutions. real men have mature emotional intelligence. real men understand women’s wants and needs. real men pick up on cues and don’t make things awkward. maybe if you spent some time interacting with real people in real life, you wouldn’t be bitter.
the meme is perfect, btw.
Real men are a spook
Real men definitely whine and blame other people, millions of them are doing it every day.
- Women are male lonliness
- Everything and everyone is weakness
- I’ve made hating dishwashers my entire personality
- There’s a empathy epidemic
I’ve made hating dishwashers my entire personality
To be fair, I really do hate my dishwasher. It is always like a 50/50 if the top rack is cleaned or the cleaning arm just fell off. Piece of junk.
Boy have I got a video for you!
Finally got around to view this video. The only applicable tip I have not tried in there is to add some prewash (despite having no spot for it).
So sadly, my dishwasher most likely is just crap.
Technology Connections?
Edit: yep!
You can’t talk about women like that bro
Whats a woman?
Mr Walsh you are not welcome here
I’ve made hating dishwashers my entire personality
But they're so cute!
They have nice racks too.
Nice rack
Thanks but it’s rude to go commenting on other people’s racks like that, you know.
If you are lucky enough to be allowed to play with them it’s pretty safe to say something nice, but if they’re the first thing you mention or you space out staring at them, it’s like the dishwasher doesn’t even matter and you only care about the rack.
We all love handling a good rack but a good dishwasher isn’t an easy thing to come across. Focusing on just one part is kind of like invalidating all the sacrifices and hard work that are necessary for a functional dishwasher.
Maybe you don’t care about any of that and just want to put your hands on or look at a nice rack. That’s perfectly fine, but if that’s the case you might want to consider getting your own rack.
Have a nice day! :)
consider getting your own rack.
Working on it!
Good luck!
you might want to consider getting your own rack.
Yes that might be a solution. But it does not matter how tolerant everyone says they are, if you put a rack in a washing machine people might look at you strange. And I feel good as a washing machine, I don’t want to be a dishwasher.
I umm… I mean I guess… wat
Lemmy is really going down the shitter
