The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
You are right, women are not into bots.
dont talk to anyone. eyes glued to the floor. no smiling. in fact, never leave your house ever again.
Instead of making a move or straight up asking the out on a date. Just strike up a convo. You can really tell when someone doesn’t want to push a conversation. Maybe they find you attractive and keep the conversation going?
If you want to cold approach, go to the club.
Yeah I find that if the other person gives some dry responses in your conversation and you’re still trying to throw tinder making the conversation going, then they’re probably not interested.
It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them."
What are you Amish?
We’re autistic bro
I have lots of advice but I haven’t so much as held someone’s hand since 2005. So about twenty years now.
The only advice I have is find women your age and ask your questions to them. See what they say. Then go from there.
That’s real solid advice. You’ve summed up all these walls of texts nicely
I think there’s a lot of nuance that both sides of this are missing. There’s a lot of middle ground between not talking to women out in the world at all, and going up to random girls and saying "nice shoes, wanna fuck?
You absolutely can approach people, strike up a conversation, maybe even hit it off and spin it into a friendship or romantic relationship.
I’m far from the guy to tell someone how to do that and try to pick apart the it’s and outs of what makes some things ok and others not, but it is something that absolutely can be done.
“nice shoes, wanna fuck?”
Gotta say, if you are a bit spicy and they are too, if your shirt matches their shoes this might result in a date.
It wouldnt be the first time.
I think if you talking to another person in a public place is automatically seen as a predator we failed as humans. Might as well be robots…it’s absolutely a good thing to talk to people
that OP actually cares enough about other people to think this over means he’s probably more tolerable than most men in my life
when talking to strangers, really good rule to follow is “don’t create a situation for somebody who isn’t completely free to leave” as in, they can exit the situation or ignore you without any consequences to their job/ night out/ errands/ enjoyment of shared space
most of the rest of the context usually sorts itself out from there, right?
It’s ok to talk to a woman. But judging by your wall of text… maybe it’s not ok for you specifically to talk to a woman.
I’ll just say you probably shouldn’t take dating advice from people who haven’t done any dating for the last 30-40 years. The world has most certainly changed.
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People are allowed to speak to one another in public. Just be respectful of people’s cues, and that goes for people of all genders.
I disagree. While certainly some things differ between generations, human nature is still the same and the world in many regards isn’t all that different from 40 years ago.
I don’t know OP’s parents so I can’t speak to them specifically, but I wouldn’t automatically discount someone’s opinion just because they’re a couple decades older.
The process of “courtship”, if you want to call it that, is definitely something that has changed dramatically between generations.
Your parents never had to bother with things like a woman specifying a time to “debut”, meeting with suitors under the supervision of an elder, the taboo of an unmarried couple being alone before marriage, the obligation for a woman’s family to put together a dowry, etc.
I mean, women in most of the west have only had political agency for just shy of 100 years, and even less than that as “equal” members of the workforce. Social dynamics have radically changed over the past several generations, and are continuing to change even now.
There was some indeterminate point in western society when advice like “You know what would really win her over? Duel her most eligible suitor” universally stopped being good advice, and the same is happening today with many of the dating strategies our parents grew up with.
OP’s parents are in their sixties; they probably were born in the mid '50s to mid '60s and started dating in the '70s/'80s. Courtship probably didn’t factor in unless they’re Mormons or something.
Edit: I re-read and realized OP said his parents are almost 60, meaning almost definitely started their dating lives in the '80s.
Right, I just mean the concept of “courtship” (if broken down to the basic concept of starting a long-term romantic relationship) has evolved to the point that it is dated to even refer to dating as “courtship” anymore. I would take any dating advice from someone considerably older with a hefty grain of salt. Sex is human nature, but dating is a constantly-evolving system of social norms that most people won’t experience outside of their own generation.
The world has changed, but this particular piece of advice is timeless. I approach people I want to talk to in real life every day, multiple times a day. No one is ever offended by it, literally ever. The reason women get offended over men approaching is because they do this thing where they approach the woman as an object, leading with their sexual desire, as if the woman is obligated to satisfy them simply because the man feels attracted. It’s a recipe for disaster.
Listen, men, there’s nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to a woman. But approach her as a human being first. Be considerate of how she’s feeling, pay attention to her boundaries, and be respectful. Of course, at some point, you need to express your interest, and it’s better to be transparent about that rather than creepy. If you are motivated by sexual interest, her intuition will tell her that long before you think it will, so no sense in hiding it. But as a general rule, never outpace the level of reciprocation she’s given you.
That means, don’t walk up to a stranger who isn’t making eye contact with you and tell her you want to fuck her. Don’t even ask for her number. First, make eye contact. If she makes eye contact back, you can proceed to the next step. Say hi. If she says hi back, you can introduce yourself. If she reciprocates by introducing herself, you can ask a question or tell her something. After you’ve had a conversation, you can ask for her number, or suggest a date. But take it one step at a time. If you take two steps ahead and she hasn’t reciprocated, that’s when you’re gonna get into trouble. If she stops reciprocating, stop escalating. If she expresses a boundary or discomfort, thank her for letting you know, and back off.
TLDR; approach! But slow the fuck down and pay attention to if she’s comfortable and reciprocating. Respect her boundaries. You honestly won’t go wrong with that approach.
I’ve approached about 800 women a year, for the past 4 years and the worst thing that’s happened is that my ego got a little bit hurt a few times when they said no thank you. Zero drama, zero anger, zero cancellation. And I’m just an average looking ginger dude.
Do you ever make small talk with men with whom “you don’t have business?”
I’m assuming yes, you probably do. Speaking with women is the same, just be sure to pick up on cues if they don’t want to speak. In fact, I’d advise you to practice by making small talk with everyone you can, with no agenda, and pay attention to their cues.
Ok. But not everywhere is it accepted to have “small talk”…
I guess, but based upon his parents advice it sounds like it is where OP is.
just be sure to pick up on cues
Yeah. About that…
The amount of times I’ve been in a pleasant conversation with a dude and when it becomes apparent I’m not available, they just immediately stop talking to me. Like… what? It’s abrupt, obvious, and super shitty to do to someone. And for the readers making assumptions about the scenarios–this wasn’t in a bar or a social event. It’s just random places in public where two people might make small talk.
I hope everyone takes your advice. Just talk to people to talk to people, without a transactional goal. Worst case scenario, you practice your conversation skills. Best case, you meet cool people and sometimes those people might want to meet up again or start texting etc. Boom a new friend that could be a relationship if you both are into it. Or you can just collect cool friends.
Disclaimer: This is for relationships and not just people to fuck. Go to places where other people are looking for that if you want to speed run fucking (bars, clubs, mixers, anime cons, etc.), which is totally fine.
Actually, I don’t. I am far more afraid of talking to men. All of the male family members I grew up around were violent. I was punched or choked as a kid if I did anything to offend them. And so, I learned to never do anything that could possibly provoke them for fear of what would happen to me. My mother also sometimes used corporal punishment on me, so I also learned to expect violence from women if they become angry.
So it seems like I have a general fear of offending people because, besides hurting others emotionally, I always expect violence to follow. The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anyone.
And this is why I asked this question. I am now self-aware of the fact that I have a completely distorted hyper-paranoid mental model of social dynamics where negative reactions have nuclear consequences and must be avoided at all costs. At the same time, I know that most of my parents’ takes are pretty bad, but there is an occasional kernel of truth in what they say. I thought that this was likely to be one of those situations, so I wanted to see if others could help point out the nuance.
So far, I have lived my entire life under the fear of violence. It prevented countless friendships and social interactions from ever happening. I avoided everything bad at the cost of everything good, and it left me with nothing. That prevented me from learning a lot of common sense social norms, like when small talk is even appropriate. I just assume that it never is, and people would rather stare at their phones than ever talk to a stranger. I guess I’m wrong about that.
That’s a lot to process and unlearn tbh. I honestly wouldn’t worry about romantic or flirting interactions at this stage and maybe just practice lower stakes social interaction, yes like small talk. Like anything, conversation takes practice and you get better at it the more you do it. But the reality is, you can’t go into a situation expecting perfection. You will say something awkward or embarrassing at some point because that’s just human nature. We all have. Coping with that sort of thing is a necessary experience and skill. Maybe you could try going to an event geared for socializing and just challenge yourself to have two conversations, with no goal in mind. I think I would get used to casual interactions before attempting to figure out romantic ones.
I’d much rather chat with a stranger than stare at my phone while waiting around in public. Connecting with strangers over some simple things can be surprisingly heart warming in an increasingly isolating world. Even just chatting about a good deal on soup or enjoying recent sunshine makes my day a little bit better. If you chose to chat with me, my day would be better.
The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anymore.
I assume you recognize that isn’t a tenable position long term. If you’re looking to start growing from that point I have a suggestion.
This isn’t quite clear and definite, but there can be a small social gift you give to people when you have a small problem that they can easily solve. It takes a fair amount of time to develop this to know the boundaries and limits, but I’ll give you an easy one: Ask for the time
Just about any random stranger, when you are both at a location for a clearly legitimate reason (bus stop, grocery store, post office, etc), will give you the time when asked. This isn’t something to do when at 2AM outside a bar. Needing the time is a benign problem that everyone has had at one time in their lives, and its something nearly everyone in modern society can solve. The interaction is so easy its rote. Keep your distance and catch their attention (if they aren’t clearly focused on something else):
You: Excuse me, my phone died. Do you have the time?
Them: (Possibly sizing you up) Uhh, its 5:37
You: Thank you, I appreciate it.
Then you walk away. Practice that with people around until it doesn’t feel uncomfortable.
Wow, I’m sorry for the abuse that’s led you to the level of fear you live in. Of course it’s going to be hard for you to start any kind of connection with someone who might have a potential romantic component if you aren’t able to connect to people who don’t have that potential.
If you’re looking for broader advice, I’d recommend getting into some social groups for hobbies or business-type things. Board gaming, hiking, maker space, Toastmasters, cons; anything that gets you out of the house and meeting people.
Once in those groups, start socializing in general. Get more comfortable meeting people and establishing friendships. Realize that not everyone you meet will respond with violence and there are better people out there.
You won’t frequently get far if you aren’t in social settings where people are trying to meet other people; 95+% of the time any interaction like that is likely to be a one-off. But if you’re confident and friendly, sometimes it’s not. It is NOT predatory to still talk to people outside of those settings, but if you only talk to people you’re physically attracted to then it’s borderline weird and could be a bit predatory.
As you build the skill of talking to anyone and everyone, you’ll also develop better communication skills and more confidence (which, btw, happens to be one of the most attractive traits). And you might just find in the process of doing so that only talking to people you find physically attractive upfront isn’t the best way to meet a potential partner.
I’m genuinely sorry your family hasn’t helped you learn these skills and has actively undermined you in a way that makes it more difficult. Whether it’s a romantic interest, friendships, or your career, working on these skills will help you become a better person.
You don’t need a date. You need therapy.
Oh nooooo
So sorry those losers were not just losers but also abusers (no offense to good memories you have or good parts of them, if any, just covering my bases here b/c life’s complicated)
Would you like to try to build back some confidence here? Elderly folks can be so very sweet (and/or lonely). Next time you’re at a crosswalk and see someone who couldn’t even suddenly dive at you fast enough to make physical contact, you could broach a conversation.
stare at their phones
Maybe we’d rather, but it’s kinda killing us at least in a sense
Published today: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/on-the-death-of-daydreaming
tl;dr interrupting me when I’m on my phone is probably chill (maybe I’ll thank you, or excuse myself if I’m sending a work email/thing)
“Ninja” edit: before folks come @ me for the phone interruption thing (for good reason), mainly advocating for building up those small talk skills that abusers hampered through NO fault of your own
It’s ok to take up space. You don’t have to become invisible in order to be around people. Assume others know they’ll be around people in public and that they’re comparing you against the assholes on the subway or the screaming, entitled weirdo who is harassing employees. Since I get the impression you don’t act like that, no one is paying much mind to what you’re doing.
Not to pathologize everything, but I’ve found a lot of help in therapy to deal with past experiences, hang ups I’ve had that I didn’t understand, and things I didn’t like that I couldn’t unlearn on my own. Maybe that’s something that could help you be more content in your interactions with people?
My advice on effective therapy: There are bad therapists out there. Find a therapist you click with. There’s evidence that shows the relationship you have with your therapist is the highest indicator of success. So if you don’t jive with them during the first contact (sometimes that’s a phone call to ask questions before committing, sometimes it’s the first session), find another therapist.
Look at it this way, it’s the same as approaching someone in public to make a friend. Obviously, that’s not inappropriate. It’s only inappropriate if you’re treating it differently (which you shouldn’t be).
How many friends have you made cold approaching people on the street or in shops like that?
Do people often react by treating you with intense suspicion? Ngl, overly chatty/friendly strangers freak me the fuck out.
I think you should just make a habit of talking to people around you. You’re kind of putting human interaction on a pedestal and that’s just going to make you overthink things.
First of all, you need to understand it’s not some pre-planned thing. You should be making a point to go out to do things you like doing - not going out with the explicit agenda of just talking to people. That’s why I think the term “cold approach” is loaded, and full of shit–It inaccurately makes it sound like something negative and unnatural–In actuality you’ve done it many times before without thinking about it.
Seems you’ve gone deep into this analysis, of which none of it is actually relevant though, because you’re not talking about the root cause of your feelings. Which is that you have social anxiety.
Is this something people actually do? I’ve only made friends through shared activities, mostly class, and by meeting friends of friends.
I dread encounters with folk like you when I leave the house.
I get that some humans are naturally more socially inclined, so you require constant affirmations and acknowledgment from everyone around you or you stop feeling good about yourselves and whatever, but this kind of self centred attention seeking that has you going out in public and deciding everyone should want to talk to you if you just go up to them and start talking- is incredibly fucking selfish.
Why do you think you’re so special and important that you get to interrupt people going about their lives and make them listen to you talk? Nobody owes you this. If you want to talk at people start a fucking podcast and let me buy my apples in peace.
That’s a lot of assumptions about how other people are thinking mate.
rally more socially inclined, so you require constant affirmations and acknowledgment from everyone around you or you stop feeling good about yourselves and whatever, but this kind of self centred attention seeking that has you going out in public and deciding everyone should want to talk to you if you just go up to them and start talking- is incredibly fucking selfish.
Why do you think you’re so special and importan
You’re supposed to wear a shirt that says ‘want to touch my pension?’
Learning how to engage and socialize with people of both sexes is a necessary skill. As long as your not being a toxic mess in front of them, you’re fine.
Yeah it’s super weird when people pick a very specific thing.
Like, imagine if someone wrote “I avoid approaching Brazilian Men With Beards in public because I believe it’s inappropriate. My parents say that it’s a necessary skill. Who is right?”
Speak to people like people. Stop thinking about what’s in their pants.
You’re not wrong, but you’ve got a bit of an extreme take on it. I think you and your parents may have different thoughts on what it means to “approach” a woman though. I’m going to use “flirt” to refer to talking to a woman with intent of seeing if they would make a good partner for you and just “talk” to indicate just being friendly with someone.
it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman who doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers
No, it’s fine to talk to strangers of any gender in public. Approaching them and flirting with them is not. As long as you can roughly understand when you’re making someone uncomfortable and stop it, you’re not going to come off as a creep/predator. Stuck in a lineup in a store? Chat with someone beside you, maybe commiserate about how long the line is. If you want to flirt with them, then yes the situations you mentioned are definitely the places to do that.
(sort of an aside: whether “meeting friends of friends” is an appropriate situation to flirt with someone you just met is still situation dependent)
They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner.
Approaching women in random public spaces with the intent of finding a partner is also a pretty bad idea. While it could work, it’s definitely creep/predator behaviour so I avoid it. It’s very likely to make them uncomfortable, since they’re just trying to do their thing not get hit on. This can easily be harassment, though I’m on the fence on whether it’s always harassment.
Personally I like to flip the genders on situations like this and ask if I’d want to be the other person in this situation. It’s worth keeping in mind that woman have way more statistical reasons to be weary/wary of any interaction with men, though. Regardless, e.g. if some woman was beside me in line and started chatting with me, I’d be fine with it. If some woman came up to me and complimented my shirt, I’d be fine with it. If some woman came up to me, complimented my shirt, and then asked for my number I’d be weirded out (I don’t know you, lady). If some woman came up to me and asked me to take out my earbuds to commiserate about how long the line is, I’d be annoyed that I’m missing my music.
