I came across this article in another Lemmy community that dislikes AI. I’m reposting instead of cross posting so that we could have a conversation about how “work” might be changing with advancements in technology.
The headline is clickbaity because Altman was referring to how farmers who lived decades ago might perceive that the work “you and I do today” (including Altman himself), doesn’t look like work.
The fact is that most of us work far abstracted from human survival by many levels. Very few of us are farming, building shelters, protecting our families from wildlife, or doing the back breaking labor jobs that humans were forced to do generations ago.
In my first job, which was IT support, the concept was not lost on me that all day long I pushed buttons to make computers beep in more friendly ways. There was no physical result to see, no produce to harvest, no pile of wood being transitioned from a natural to a chopped state, nothing tangible to step back and enjoy at the end of the day.
Bankers, fashion designers, artists, video game testers, software developers and countless other professions experience something quite similar. Yet, all of these jobs do in some way add value to the human experience.
As humanity’s core needs have been met with technology requiring fewer human inputs, our focus has been able to shift to creating value in less tangible, but perhaps not less meaningful ways. This has created a more dynamic and rich life experience than any of those previous farming generations could have imagined. So while it doesn’t seem like the work those farmers were accustomed to, humanity has been able to shift its attention to other types of work for the benefit of many.
I postulate that AI - as we know it now - is merely another technological tool that will allow new layers of abstraction. At one time bookkeepers had to write in books, now software automatically encodes accounting transactions as they’re made. At one time software developers might spend days setting up the framework of a new project, and now an LLM can do the bulk of the work in minutes.
These days we have fewer bookkeepers - most companies don’t need armies of clerks anymore. But now we have more data analysts who work to understand the information and make important decisions. In the future we may need fewer software coders, and in turn, there will be many more software projects that seek to solve new problems in new ways.
How do I know this? I think history shows us that innovations in technology always bring new problems to be solved. There is an endless reservoir of challenges to be worked on that previous generations didn’t have time to think about. We are going to free minds from tasks that can be automated, and many of those minds will move on to the next level of abstraction.
At the end of the day, I suspect we humans are biologically wired with a deep desire to output rewarding and meaningful work, and much of the results of our abstracted work is hard to see and touch. Perhaps this is why I enjoy mowing my lawn so much, no matter how advanced robotic lawn mowing machines become.
I’ve been thinking a lot about this since chatgpt dropped and I agree with Sam here despite the article trying to rage bait people. We simply shouldn’t protect the job market from the point of view of identity or status. We should keep an open mind of jobs and work culture could look like in the future.
Unfortunately this issue is impossible to discuss without conflating it with general economics and wealth imbalance so we’ll never have an adult discussion here. We can actually have both - review/kill/create new jobs and work cultures and address wealth imbalance but not in some single silver bullet solution.
this issue is impossible to discuss without conflating it with general economics and wealth imbalance
It’s not conflating, the two issues are inextricably linked.
General economics and wealth imbalance can be addressed with or without the chaos of AI disrupting the job market. The problem is: chaos acts to drive wealth imbalance faster, so any change like AI in the jobs market is just shaking things up and letting more people fall through the cracks faster.
Everything is “linked” - your point is moot.
The real thing most people are trying to hold onto is stability, because chaos benefits the powerful. AI is just the latest agent of chaos, from their perspectives.
Weird take.
Instead of calling it chaos, call it losing their jobs - being forced to move hundreds of miles if they want to earn decent money again…
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I’ve worked for big corporations that employ a lot of people. Every job has a metric showing how much money every single task they do creates. Believe me. They would never pay you if your tasks didn’t generate more money than they need to pay you to do the task.
This is part of the reason I don’t work for big corporations… yuck
Every job has a metric showing how much money every single task they do creates.
Management accountants would love to do this. In practise you can only do this for low level, commoditised roles.
Mopping a floor has a determined metric. I’m not kidding. It’s a metric. Clean bathrooms are worth a determined dollar amount. It’s not simply sales or production, every task has a dollar amount. The amount of time it takes to do the task has a dollar value determined and on paper. Corporations know what every task is worth in dollar amounts. Processing Hazmats? Prevents the fine. Removing trash or pallets? Prevents lawsuits and workplace injury. Level of light reflected from the floor? Has a multiplier effect on sales. Determined. Defined. Training sales people on language choices, massive sales effect. They know how much money every single tasks generates, fines or lawsuits prevented, multiplier effects on average ticket sales, training to say ’ highest consumer rated repair services ’ instead of ‘extended warentee’ these are on paper defined dollar amounts. There is NO JOB in which you are paid to do something of no financial value. There are no unprofitable positions or tasks.
Your examples are all commoditized and measurable. Many roles are not this quantifiable.
There is NO JOB in which you are paid to do something of no financial value.
Compliance, marketing, social outreach, branding.
Putting a $ amount on these and other similar roles is very difficult.
But I agree, if the value added is known to be zero or negative then usually no-one is paid to do it.
There are no unprofitable positions or tasks.
Not when they are set up, but they can become unprofitable over time, and get overlooked.
Compliance is calculated with previous years costs in workman’s comp, hiring and training costs, and lawsuit and fine payouts. It’s one of the easiest tasks to break down to dollar amounts. If we paid $8k at every site and one site paid $2k because they didn’t get fined on electrical outlets out of code, then one task in compliance saved $6k I’m not theorising with you. I have seen the excel spreadsheets, this isn’t me assuming they exist, this is quantified. This is specified on paper man. What don’t you get here? Marketing is VERY easy to assign a dollar amount to. We made $100k one quarter with $1k paid in marketing, we made $200k next quarter with $2k paid on marketing. Very easy to determine. You want to wake everyone in the morning meeting up? Tell them you want to pull money out of Advertising and redirect it to payroll. They’ll all spit their coffee out. Social media is also very easy to quantify. You just compare metrics across all quarters and pair them to social media follows, this is a huge metric that a lot of business decisions are made on, this isn’t amorphous just because you’re unaware of how important it is to business. Branding also has hard values assigned, and supporting or changing branding is very much a numbers game. Why else do you have companies willing to buy the name of another company even when they don’t need their production or staff along with it? I don’t think you grasp that every single task someone does for a corporation is matched to a dollar figure amount. Seriously. If I could get labor class people to drop one myth it would be that their labor has next to no value. They know what you’re worth and they know how much they aren’t paying you out of the value you produce.
Compliance is calculated with previous years costs
No, that’s just what you spent last year.
Marketing is VERY easy to assign a dollar amount to.
It’s easy to see how much it costs. It’s very hard to determine exactly how much additional revenue any particular campaign creates.
They know what you’re worth
Pick anyone at the C-Level. How much revenue do they bring in? What’s the ROI of a CFO?
Clearly the documentation I dealt with daily was a hallucination. I’m sorry to defy your superior set of facts.
Productivity will rise again and we will not get compensated even if we all get better cooler jobs and do the same but 10x more efficiently. Which we won’t get to do, some of us will have no jobs.
Earnings from AI and automation need to be redistributed to the people. If it works and AI does not blow up in their face because it’s a bubble, they will be so filthy rich that they either don’t know what to do with it or lose grip of reality and try to shape politics, countries, the world etc.
See the walking k-hole that tried to make things “more efficient”.
Machines gave us during the industrial revolution the means to unskilled labour to have something to do. Now machines will take it away. Simple.
Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.
– The Orange Catholic Bible
Also, that pompous chucklefuck can go fuck himself. There are people who could barely feed themselves at less than a couple dollars per day.
read the next sentence after that.
Sam, I say this will all my heart…
Fuck you very kindly. I’m pretty sure what you do is not “a real job” and should be replaced by AI.
says the guy who never did real work in his life
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I am starting to dislike Altman spam more than Elmo spam.
Regarding the philosophical points, there is some truth to the arguments, but one thing is absolutely certain (you can have zero knowledge of “AI” services to know that), you can’t trust Americans in such matters.
This was a great comment to the article. You have true expression in your words, my friend. It was a joy reading.
At one time software developers might spend days setting up the framework of a new project, and now an LLM can do the bulk of the work in minutes.
No and no. Have you ever coded anything?
Yeah, I have never spent “days” setting anything up. Anyone who can’t do it without spending “days” struggling with it is not reading the documentation.
You guys are getting documentation?
Well, if I’m not, then neither is an LLM.
But for most projects built with modern tooling, the documentation is fine, and they mostly have simple CLIs for scaffolding a new application.
I mean if you use the code base you’re working in as context it’ll probably learn the code base faster than you will, although I’m not saying that’s a good strategy, I’d never personally do that
The thing is, it really won’t. The context window isn’t large enough, especially for a decently-sized application, and that seems to be a fundamental limitation. Make the context window too large, and the LLM gets massively offtrack very easily, because there’s too much in it to distract it.
And LLMs don’t remember anything. The next time you interact with it and put the whole codebase into its context window again, it won’t know what it did before, even if the last session was ten minutes ago. That’s why they so frequently create bloat.
Sometimes documentation is inconsistent.
Ever work in an enterprise environment? Sometimes a single talented developer cannot overcome the calcification of hundreds of people over several decades who care more about the optics of work than actual work. Documentation cannot help if its non-existent/20 years old. Documentation cannot make teams that don’t believe in automation, adopt Docker.
Not that I expect Sam Altman to understand what it’s like working in a dumpster fire company, the only job he’s ever held is to pour gasoline.
Dumpster fire companies are the ones he’s targeting because they’re the mostly likely to look for quick and cheap ways to fix the symptoms of their problems, and most likely to want to replace their employees with automations.
If your argument attacks my credibility, that’s fine, you don’t know me. We can find cases where developers use the technology and cases where they refuse.
Do you have anything substantive to add to the discussion about whether AI LLMs are anything more than just a tool that allows workers to further abstract, advancing all of the professions it can touch towards any of: better / faster / cheaper / easier?
Yeah, I’ve got something to add. The ruling class will use LLMs as a tool to lay off tens of thousands of workers to consolidate more power and wealth at the top.
LLMs also advance no profession at all while it can still hallucinate and be manipulated by it’s owners, producing more junk that requires a skilled worker to fix. Even my coworkers have said “if I have to fix everything it gives me, why didn’t I just do it myself?”
LLMs also have dire consequences outside the context of labor. Because of how easy they are to manipulate, they can be used to manufacture consent and warp public consciousness around their owners’ ideals.
LLMs are also a massive financial bubble, ready to pop and send us into a recession. Nvidia is shoveling money into companies so they can shovel it back into Nvidia.
Would you like me to continue on about the climate?
I’ve got something to add: in every practical application AI have increased liabilities and created vastly inferior product, so they’re not more than just a tool that allows workers to further abstract because they are less than that. This in addition to the fact that AI companies can’t turn a profit, so it’s not better, not faster, not cheaper, but but it is certainly easier (to do a shit job).
You seem to be taking this a bit personally…
Have you ever built anything with your hands that mattered?
I know this was aimed at someone else. But my response is “Every day.” What is your follow-up question?
Yes. How is it relevant to moderne SWE practices?
OP wrote 10 paragraphs and your head is still in devland.
Apart from questionable quality of the result, a big issue to me about LLMs is the way it substitutes human interaction with other humans. Which is one of the most fundamental way humans learn, innovate and express themselves.
No technological innovation replaced human interaction with a facsimile, that way before.
“Real job” is often an anti-intellectualist code word for hard manual labor.
There’s actually a lot of bullshit jobs out there. Things that could be automated(without AI) or when companies feel the need to do a hiring binge to appear like they’re growing. A lot of useless busywork. C-suits especially could be replaced or eliminated first though.
They’re not real until your bullshit factory falls apart without them, fucktard
I was at the Canton Fair last week which is a trade show in China where manufacturers display some of their latest technology.
There was a robotics display all where they are showing off how lots of factories, kitchens, another labor-based jobs can be automated with technology.
This doesn’t really have a lot to do with AI or LLMs, but the field of robotics is advancing fast and a lot of basic work that humans had to do in the past won’t be needed as much in the future.
Yeah… But rich people don’t want to eat food prepared cheaply and efficiently by robots. They want 10k a plate bullshit, not peasant food. They will, however, gladly use robots for manual labor like construction and soldiering
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This.
It will be the baby of idiocracy and blade runner.
All the horrible dehumanising parts, without any of the gritty aesthetics, and every character is some kind of sadistic Elmer Fudd.
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The baby of Idiocracy and Blade Runner would be called Running While Holding A Sharp Knife I believe
