Drives me crazy too - still voting for him, and if you aren’t voting for him, then I really don’t need to associate with you because I know you don’t care about anyone other than yourself.
If you’re legally allowed to vote in the USA, you almost certainly do vote for capitalists, largely due to fundamental flaws in First Past the Post - you have no way not to. Both abstaining from voting and voting third party are mathematically equivalent to voting for a capitalist, it just makes it messier working out which one you voted for.
Dude. I’m not talking about people outside of the US. What is so complicated about that. This is a US centric country conversation. I thought it was implied that the people I was speaking about would be US citizens.
Here, I will clarify with everyone who has a hard time reading between the lines.
IF YOU ARE A US CITIZEN THAT CAN LEGALLY VOTE AND YOU CHOOSE TO USE YOUR VOTE IN A MANNER THAT WILL ULTIMATELY DESTROY MY PERSONAL FREEDOMS AND FURTHER THE SUFFERING OF OTHER PEOPLE FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC, I WOULD RATHER NOT ASSOCIATE WITH YOU.
At this point voting for Biden despite what he’s allowed to happen in the middle east is only done with the voters self interest in mind, and don’t care about brown people.
MLK remarks on white liberals detailed in Letter from a Birmingham Jail still ring true.
I’m voting for him cuz I care more about domestic politics that effect me directly than the genocide he’s doing to people in a land far far away but if you don’t vote for him too you’re just a selfish meanie because you care more about the lives of kids on the other side of the globe than MEEEEEEE!!!
Every Palestinian will be dead because you and I voted for Biden in 2020 not knowing he was hiding a genocidal freak under a facade of decency and congeniality. I’ll be voting for West, Stein, or De La Cruz to send a message to future politicians that I won’t tolerate genocide.
Biden and Trump are exactly the same, I’m sick of these totally identical corporate candidates.
And if they’re not the same at all, then Biden’s done all kinds of horrible things domestically, let’s not focus on comparing the two.
And if it turns out he’s actually been really good domestically, then I care so much about the Palestinians that I can’t possibly for vote him.
And if Trump on day 1 nukes the Palestinians and also Iran and Ukraine, and turns the United States into a for-real fascist dictatorship with the military shooting protestors and no elections for 12 years until we can get out from under the hellscape, at which point it’ll be even more too late than the too late that it already is to do anything about climate change… then that’s just the price we pay to avoid having to choose the lesser of two evils. Definitely worth it.
I simply couldn’t bring myself to vote for anyone enabling a genocide, while having very direct power not to. That is simply not something I could in good consciousness do.
Luckily I do not have to, since I do not live in the us. But it is just boggling me how this is a hill someone is willing to die on. I live somewhere with a sensible system already in place, and I can’t thank my ancestors and those that came after them, especially the labour movements and very vocal activists and activism in general, enough.
The problem out there is in the system, it seems to me, and even if we accept that the system is something unchangeable, the actual “better” candidate is still a huge problem.
It makes no sense to vote for someone you do not endorse or want to vote. That is just a waste of your voice and your vote.
Nothing ever changes, if nothing ever hurts. This is the very core logic of labor action too. Halting production is costly and causes problems nation and/or industry-wide, but why would anyone change the status quo if there isn’t an incentive to do so? Why give the workforce sensible salary, when all the production lines run just fine without doing that?
Now, with the two-party system, I get the logic that if one does not vote for the democratic candidate, it lowers the threshold for the opposing forces to win. And that is bad, but mostly in the short, immediate term of a turn in office.
But why on earth would the other side, democrats, ever dish out a good candidate, if they can rally people and get support with genocidal, spineless ones too? Why change, if everything works great without change?
The only way you guys get actually sensible representation, and preferably even a change in the whole system, is if enough people actually feel the hurt. The horrible side to it is that those worst off will feel the hurt the most, but as things stand, those in power, even in democratic side, feel nothing, really, for the most part. So why change anything?
If their candidate loses to fucking Trump, after everything, knowing all everyone should know by now, it should open at least some of their eyes to the fact that there are nothing but bad fucking choices, and they do not win with bad fucking candidates. Maybe Trump goes ahead and wrecks the system and goes full-ass fascist or whatever, that should finally get people to the barricades and do something about the dumb fucking system everyone keeps complaining about, but not causing enough pain for those that have any power, for them to initiate any meaningful change.
Not voting Biden hurts, but voting for him just keeps the current fucked up status quo at play, gaining ever tighter grip, becoming harder to shake up each term. Do something. Change things. Fuck the people who keep things tasting like shit. Vote to change things. Be the revolution, or at least some meaningful change, if not that.
Otherwise you are just allowing the Trumps of the world to play the system and keep getting away with the most ridiculous shit.
Just my thoughts, as someone who’s always voting for my ideal candidate, but not getting fucked in the ass by doing so, because our system formed in time into something sensible via peoples’ actions, labour movements, just progress in general, instead of having to fucking compromise all ideals just to get the slightly less horrible guy to the top of the ivory tower…
Those two are just ridiculous options. There is literally no one in the mainstream worth voting for, if one cares about integrity and gives two fucks about genocide.
But that does not have to be so. There can, and should, be third party options to vote for.
But whatever, you have your mind made up and that’s fine. Your point of view is valid and while I can not understand it, I can respect it.
Personally I always vote either green or socialist. If neither is available, then there’s probably a lot of room to be part of a change that will benefit everyone. But not everyone has the conviction or guts to be part of that change. And that is fine. I probably wouldn’t either. I’m only benefitting from those before me, who did, unlike you, actually believe in something and change things for the better.
I appreciate you taking time to respond and I understand your point of view. I guess I’m just an idealist, but I still feel it important for myself to believe in a better situation, even if in the short term things have to go worse for a bit. But I also appreciate that for a lot of people, there isn’t a lot of room left to go any worse, even in the short term. It’s a tough spot, for sure, and I sympathize with that with all my heart 🥺
I understand and appreciate your explanation and I understand where your morals are. Thank you.
I still do think you are wrong, and while your vote may seem righteous to you - it ultimately helps the greater of two evils.
I still however respect your right to cast your vote in any which way you seem fit but would truly ask that you reconsider your current course.
Biden is fucking up - but Trump will make our lives nightmares.
Edit - additional thought: I don’t actually think you are wrong. I think you should vote for those candidates on a local level. I have before and it’s worked out.
But when it comes to the federal level, you have to play by the rules in place in order to see even the slightest incremental chance.
Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it. I already answered to your other comment, in which I took this one into account too, as a combiner response, but I just wanted to stop by for a bit and let you know that in no way am I hostile against what you say, or think it bad. It’s the necessary evil, in a world full of larger evils, and I can appreciate the necessity of also protecting one’s self and surroundings in the short term too, especially as the world is such a fucked up place right now.
I still stand by what I said, and I’m a bit too much of a stubborn cunt myself to bend my own knee when faced with the grim reality of having to choose any evils (as opposed to being the infuriating idealist that I am), but I just want to emphasize that I truly do see your argument and the value in it, and I’m not trying to diminish that, mostly I guess to just spread my idea of an alternative, not a replacement, if that makes sense? That there can be, and are, different ways to face these things, without one or the other being (in my opinion) necessarily better than the other. I think it’s valid to dream big and dare to challenge the status quo. But it is also very valid to want to protect everyone from the obvious harm that would come if not enough dream big to make a point or challenge the powers that be, but still enough to give the opposition the edge. It’s a real threat and I get where you are coming from, and I can feel for you there.
But most importantly I respect the effort you took challenging my differing stances, especially this very comment you wrote later. I appreciate you, and wish all the best. Keep up fighting for what you believe. That way you are, in fact, the change you want to see in the world. Even if our views differ, you are making a difference. 🙏🏻
Jesus, man. Nowhere did I ever imply that republicans, of all the world’s clowns, would do anything like that. I can understand my take being a hot one around here I suppose, but where did you get that sentiment?
I very explicitly, and at length, argued the very opposite. I think you might’ve read my comments upside down, being from Australia and all 😁
Edit: And I’m not familiar with Australian politics, but I feel like I faintly recall that you do have more options to vote for, with a much more sensible system, so it just seems weird for you, of all people, to get heated over my suggestions to vote for green or socialist or whatever third party one feels appropriate.
Didn’t really think it was bad enough to warrant moderators removing it either, and I am a right old cunt myself honestly, so he wasn’t even wrong there. But the substance itself was what I was arguing against, I think they misread my comment there 😕 but thanks, mate!
Drives me crazy too - still voting for him, and if you aren’t voting for him, then I really don’t need to associate with you because I know you don’t care about anyone other than yourself.
this is a leap of logic
👍
People downvoting you apparently don’t believe anyone on Lemmy is:
1 and 2 get me the most. Imagine not believing in Italians or children.
I’m a leftist and I don’t vote for capitalists or war criminals.
If you’re legally allowed to vote in the USA, you almost certainly do vote for capitalists, largely due to fundamental flaws in First Past the Post - you have no way not to. Both abstaining from voting and voting third party are mathematically equivalent to voting for a capitalist, it just makes it messier working out which one you voted for.
no, they’re not. calling your storytelling “math” doesn’t change its veracity.
Yes, they are. Obstinately refusing to understand the mathematics of voting doesn’t change the math.
i’ve seen explications before, but i’m open to the possibility that you have a novel theory that is testable, falsifiable, and valid.
Dude. I’m not talking about people outside of the US. What is so complicated about that. This is a US centric country conversation. I thought it was implied that the people I was speaking about would be US citizens.
Here, I will clarify with everyone who has a hard time reading between the lines.
IF YOU ARE A US CITIZEN THAT CAN LEGALLY VOTE AND YOU CHOOSE TO USE YOUR VOTE IN A MANNER THAT WILL ULTIMATELY DESTROY MY PERSONAL FREEDOMS AND FURTHER THE SUFFERING OF OTHER PEOPLE FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC, I WOULD RATHER NOT ASSOCIATE WITH YOU.
At this point voting for Biden despite what he’s allowed to happen in the middle east is only done with the voters self interest in mind, and don’t care about brown people.
MLK remarks on white liberals detailed in Letter from a Birmingham Jail still ring true.
I’m not even going to try to follow the mental gymnastics you took to arrive at your conclusion. Have a good one.
I’m voting for him cuz I care more about domestic politics that effect me directly than the genocide he’s doing to people in a land far far away but if you don’t vote for him too you’re just a selfish meanie because you care more about the lives of kids on the other side of the globe than MEEEEEEE!!!
Thank you for illustrating my point exactly. Just remember that you will be the reason that every Palestinian will be dead after you vote for RFK.
Everything will escalate under Trump.
Every Palestinian will be dead because you and I voted for Biden in 2020 not knowing he was hiding a genocidal freak under a facade of decency and congeniality. I’ll be voting for West, Stein, or De La Cruz to send a message to future politicians that I won’t tolerate genocide.
I don’t have anything else to say on this topic. I’ve been clear on my opinion. You are free to do what you feel is best for this country.
Thanks.
deleted by creator
Get over yourself. This isn’t 2016. We’ve seen what happened under Trump. You damn well know what will happen now if you don’t vote for Biden now.
Please stop pretending it will be okay if you don’t vote Biden.
deleted by creator
Super cute retort, have you considered not voting for Biden will only exacerbate the genocide in Gaza?
deleted by creator
You do you fam. Hope it works out for you. I don’t have anything else to add. Thanks.
The fakeleftist’s prayer
You know other countries exist, right? And none of their citizens will be voting for Biden?
Fully aware, what I said does not apply to foreign politics - thought that would have been clear given the subject of the thread.
I simply couldn’t bring myself to vote for anyone enabling a genocide, while having very direct power not to. That is simply not something I could in good consciousness do.
Luckily I do not have to, since I do not live in the us. But it is just boggling me how this is a hill someone is willing to die on. I live somewhere with a sensible system already in place, and I can’t thank my ancestors and those that came after them, especially the labour movements and very vocal activists and activism in general, enough.
The problem out there is in the system, it seems to me, and even if we accept that the system is something unchangeable, the actual “better” candidate is still a huge problem.
It makes no sense to vote for someone you do not endorse or want to vote. That is just a waste of your voice and your vote.
Nothing ever changes, if nothing ever hurts. This is the very core logic of labor action too. Halting production is costly and causes problems nation and/or industry-wide, but why would anyone change the status quo if there isn’t an incentive to do so? Why give the workforce sensible salary, when all the production lines run just fine without doing that?
Now, with the two-party system, I get the logic that if one does not vote for the democratic candidate, it lowers the threshold for the opposing forces to win. And that is bad, but mostly in the short, immediate term of a turn in office.
But why on earth would the other side, democrats, ever dish out a good candidate, if they can rally people and get support with genocidal, spineless ones too? Why change, if everything works great without change?
The only way you guys get actually sensible representation, and preferably even a change in the whole system, is if enough people actually feel the hurt. The horrible side to it is that those worst off will feel the hurt the most, but as things stand, those in power, even in democratic side, feel nothing, really, for the most part. So why change anything?
If their candidate loses to fucking Trump, after everything, knowing all everyone should know by now, it should open at least some of their eyes to the fact that there are nothing but bad fucking choices, and they do not win with bad fucking candidates. Maybe Trump goes ahead and wrecks the system and goes full-ass fascist or whatever, that should finally get people to the barricades and do something about the dumb fucking system everyone keeps complaining about, but not causing enough pain for those that have any power, for them to initiate any meaningful change.
Not voting Biden hurts, but voting for him just keeps the current fucked up status quo at play, gaining ever tighter grip, becoming harder to shake up each term. Do something. Change things. Fuck the people who keep things tasting like shit. Vote to change things. Be the revolution, or at least some meaningful change, if not that.
Otherwise you are just allowing the Trumps of the world to play the system and keep getting away with the most ridiculous shit.
Just my thoughts, as someone who’s always voting for my ideal candidate, but not getting fucked in the ass by doing so, because our system formed in time into something sensible via peoples’ actions, labour movements, just progress in general, instead of having to fucking compromise all ideals just to get the slightly less horrible guy to the top of the ivory tower…
RFK AND TRUMP ARENT GOING TO STOP THE GENOCIDE THEY ARE JUST GOING TO ADD MORE SHIT TO THE PILE.
SWALLOW THE PILL.
Those two are just ridiculous options. There is literally no one in the mainstream worth voting for, if one cares about integrity and gives two fucks about genocide.
But that does not have to be so. There can, and should, be third party options to vote for.
But whatever, you have your mind made up and that’s fine. Your point of view is valid and while I can not understand it, I can respect it.
Personally I always vote either green or socialist. If neither is available, then there’s probably a lot of room to be part of a change that will benefit everyone. But not everyone has the conviction or guts to be part of that change. And that is fine. I probably wouldn’t either. I’m only benefitting from those before me, who did, unlike you, actually believe in something and change things for the better.
All you are doing is fucking yourself over, but, have fun throwing your vote away.
I appreciate you taking time to respond and I understand your point of view. I guess I’m just an idealist, but I still feel it important for myself to believe in a better situation, even if in the short term things have to go worse for a bit. But I also appreciate that for a lot of people, there isn’t a lot of room left to go any worse, even in the short term. It’s a tough spot, for sure, and I sympathize with that with all my heart 🥺
I was worked up before and I apologize.
I understand and appreciate your explanation and I understand where your morals are. Thank you.
I still do think you are wrong, and while your vote may seem righteous to you - it ultimately helps the greater of two evils.
I still however respect your right to cast your vote in any which way you seem fit but would truly ask that you reconsider your current course.
Biden is fucking up - but Trump will make our lives nightmares.
Edit - additional thought: I don’t actually think you are wrong. I think you should vote for those candidates on a local level. I have before and it’s worked out.
But when it comes to the federal level, you have to play by the rules in place in order to see even the slightest incremental chance.
Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it. I already answered to your other comment, in which I took this one into account too, as a combiner response, but I just wanted to stop by for a bit and let you know that in no way am I hostile against what you say, or think it bad. It’s the necessary evil, in a world full of larger evils, and I can appreciate the necessity of also protecting one’s self and surroundings in the short term too, especially as the world is such a fucked up place right now.
I still stand by what I said, and I’m a bit too much of a stubborn cunt myself to bend my own knee when faced with the grim reality of having to choose any evils (as opposed to being the infuriating idealist that I am), but I just want to emphasize that I truly do see your argument and the value in it, and I’m not trying to diminish that, mostly I guess to just spread my idea of an alternative, not a replacement, if that makes sense? That there can be, and are, different ways to face these things, without one or the other being (in my opinion) necessarily better than the other. I think it’s valid to dream big and dare to challenge the status quo. But it is also very valid to want to protect everyone from the obvious harm that would come if not enough dream big to make a point or challenge the powers that be, but still enough to give the opposition the edge. It’s a real threat and I get where you are coming from, and I can feel for you there.
But most importantly I respect the effort you took challenging my differing stances, especially this very comment you wrote later. I appreciate you, and wish all the best. Keep up fighting for what you believe. That way you are, in fact, the change you want to see in the world. Even if our views differ, you are making a difference. 🙏🏻
Removed by mod
Removed, civility. Ableist slur.
Jesus, man. Nowhere did I ever imply that republicans, of all the world’s clowns, would do anything like that. I can understand my take being a hot one around here I suppose, but where did you get that sentiment?
I very explicitly, and at length, argued the very opposite. I think you might’ve read my comments upside down, being from Australia and all 😁
Edit: And I’m not familiar with Australian politics, but I feel like I faintly recall that you do have more options to vote for, with a much more sensible system, so it just seems weird for you, of all people, to get heated over my suggestions to vote for green or socialist or whatever third party one feels appropriate.
Don’t be offended at the language - that’s just friendly banter for an Aussie. You get used to it.
Didn’t really think it was bad enough to warrant moderators removing it either, and I am a right old cunt myself honestly, so he wasn’t even wrong there. But the substance itself was what I was arguing against, I think they misread my comment there 😕 but thanks, mate!