Fun fact: Torx screwdrivers are compatible with Torx Plus screws, but Trox Plus screwdrivers are only compatible with Torx screws that are one size larger
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I have to admit that each time I saw a torx security screw on a case I had to open (looking at you, Compaq) this made me so angry that I used to punch the middle pin away with a flathead screwdriver, and replace the screw with a regular one later. This was in those past times I did not have a fuckton of assorted torx bits in a gigantic case…
I’m with you. I’ve replaced all the torx screws on my Dell with Philips head screws because fuck you Dell. (all the screws inside were already Philips)
Didn’t Compaq use to have those torx with a slit in them where you could put a flathead screwdriver in the slit part?
I know HP uses those on some computers. Pretty neat design, if you ask me!
Yes I’ve always referred to them as Compaq screws but mainly because I personally saw them on Compaq first. I think HP bought Compaq at some point and that might explain why they are used on both brands. Don’t know which brand started using them first.
I would have rather had they just used Phillips screws but as far as weird screwheads go these aren’t too bad.
At least the good thing about them is the threads are standard and they can be replaced with a Phillipshead case screw just as well.
The EU should fine companies for introducing new standards that break old standards. Or any shit standards like Toslink: https://lemmy.world/comment/10671314 . Standardization organizations shouldn’t be sleeping through all this shit.
I don’t use screw drivers enough to know what these are for. But from a programmer’s standpoint, punishing people to deviate away from standard may cause more harm than good, no?
Suppose it’s easier/cheaper/more effective to deviate a bit from standard, why should I be punished to do things a bit differently?
Think about all the micro USB, lightning cables, USB cables etc. In programming it’s different, but for this stuff it’s a waste of money and actual resources.
One issue is that it can be leveraged to maintain a monopoly. Microsoft famously made a bunch of small modifications to the HTML standard, so that web sites that wanted to work with MS Internet Explorer had to write custom versions to be compatible. But because so many people just used IE because it was bundled with Windows, those “extensions” started to become their own standard, so that then other browsers had to adopt MS’s idiosyncrasies in order to be compatible with the sites, which in turn harmed standardization itself. They even had a term for this technique: “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.” It nearly worked for them until Google pushed them out with Chrome. Microsoft tried to do the same thing again with Java until the government got involved.
It’s complicated, certainly, but there are legitimate cases where “just a little tweak” can be quite a big problem for a standard.
Thanks for the explanation.
I never realised how stupid it is that toslink can only plug in 1 way
Why is tamper-resistant torx plus the only one that’s 5-pronged?
Apple?
To make it even less likely that someone will be able to get it unscrewed without having the right set.
They’re not perfect, obviously, but they do harden a target more than regular Torx.
I use tamper resistant screws to keep an AirTag on my eBike to discourage its removal. Obviously a determined thief could remove it, but lots of stolen bikes get abandoned anyway. My hope is that if it gets stolen it gets abandoned and I can find it then.
Okay, then a slightly different question: why aren’t tamper-resistant torx (non-plus) 5-prong?
because the goal of tamper resistance is to make it harder to unscrew without apple’s approval
When you buy the screws they usually come with a drill bit that fits them
Fuck you all!! I’m not arguing about this again :(
But I found this interesting.
https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-screws-and-screwdrivers-1992422
Robinson aka the square head is by far the superior choice.
As a person that changes out a lot of electrical outlets and switches I have to agree.
Found the Canadian.
I’m not canadian, so I don’t have a lot of experience with robertson. But from the limited experience that I do have, I would rate it 10/10.
What would you recommend for smaller screws (e.g. for electronics)? As far as I know, there aren’t smaller sizes of robertson like there are with torx?
Pozidrive has real nice engagement and doesn’t cam out like Phillips does. And JIS drivers do a better job in Phillips than Phillips ones do.
After wrecking some JIS screws on a vintage reciever, I bought a nice Vessel-brand JIS driver set, and use it for all my crosshead needs.
Philips doesn’t cam out that easily either. Most people just don’t realize there’s three common sizes.
Philips doesn’t cam out that easily either.
I mean…that’s an inherently subjective statement.
But more objectively, regardless of how easily, it’s still the worst of the available options.
Pozidriv reliably makes me projectile vomit ☹️
I’ve driven tens of thousands of pozidrive 2/3 screws into timber with an impact driver. For whatever reason my experience is the diametric opposite of yours. Big up the Pozidrive massive.
It’s probably because of the impact driver. The bit seats back into the bottom of the slot between every impact. This doesn’t happen with normal drivers.
People (try to) use a drill driver as opposed to an impact driver? Wow. I now understand why they could have a grim experience… thanks.
I absolutely love the amount of strong opinions on screw heads 🙏
Me too. Nice to see the passion of the construction industry ( and the weekend warriors too)
Yeah but JIS for screws/bolts has been abandoned by the Japanese govt as of… 2005?My JIS screwdrivers are fantastic, not easy to torque out on a regular Phillips screw. Stick with the “vessel” brand.
E: I can’t find anything more than discussion about it, nothing official. Sorry for the wrong info, looks like JIS screws are still alive.
I did not know that, but yes to Vessel!
I think I was wrong, see edit. Carry on!
*Robertson
LOL sure, good one… Only time that square abomination is the answer is if the question is “what do you get if you put a toddler in charge of designing a poor knockoff unbrako head?”
TEAM TORX REPRESENT!
Things are getting heated in the screw fandom
Its flaw is that you can only get to it in 90deg increments. When the screw is in a hard to reach place that will drive you crazy
Ah, torx plus, used on Chevy bellhousings. Real easy to strip with a regular torx driver.
Torx are superior to all other types. I’ve been a carpenter for roughly three decades, and have suffered through all manner of fastening methods that have come and gone. None of them can hold a candle to Torx. I’ve never seen another type that can resist stripping out so well and for so long.
And a set of Allen keys usually saves a trip to the hardware store if you’re missing the right size Torx bit.
Hexes save trip to store when you need torx? How?
Because a hex key can fit (albeit imperfectly) into a Torx opening and loosen or tighten the fastener as needed.
It’s more likely to slip or strip, but it’s better than nothing.
The opposite is also true.
How do you feel about square drive? I’m no carpenter, just someone that’s done enough work around the house, but I’ve found that Torx are the best option but square is a close second (but I don’t think I’ve used them in any especially high torque situations, and they may fall short there).
Square drive (or Robertson) I consider a close second. They do tend to strip out faster, especially in “softer” fasteners like stainless steel.
So square is a close second in terms of quality, while being vastly simpler and cheaper to manufacture. Seems to me like i’d prefer square.
Also i’d be terrified of getting dirt in a torx screw, good luck cleaning it to make it usable again. Though i haven’t actually had this problem personally so it’s just a hunch
You clearly have no idea how fasteners are manufactured… and you worry needlessly about hypotheticals.
Torx, hex, and square/Robertson all require broaching, generally with a rotary broach. The manufacturing process is basically identical, though the manufacturing of the machine tools varies slightly.
I have torx all over my mountain bike that gets caked in dirt, a little bit of water and a pick gets them usable in seconds. I could argue that hex is superior to square but they’re both worse than torx so who really cares.
Square and Robertson are different. No taper in square
Torx should be the default over Phillips for sure. Phillips is fine for shit like access panels or screw terminals. Slotted is useless for anything but the adjustment on pots and thermostats. Robertson is just a proto-torx. Everything else either exists to make someone money or is a bolt
Torx can’t hold shit. They’re single use screws.
Robertson is superior to all.
What about hexes?
Fellow contractor here. Torx or go home. Drywall screws are the only exception I’m willing to make.
Where do you buy torx wood screws or torx metal screws?
I’ve never seen any.
IIRC Spax and GRK make torx multi-purpose fasteners that you can use for wood and metal
Most screws sold around here have a torx head
Robertson drive tho
Least favorite for sure.
Vastly Superior to Philips, which is vastly superior to blade/slotted for anything resembling a power tool.
robertsons are tapered, so unless you get a proper positive lock, or they have dirt in them or something, they’re more liable to stripping out. But other than that, they’re great.
And how many of these are needed by the dictates of their use VS how many are needed to restrict your access?
Why does Torx Plus have six teeth but tamper-resistant Torx Plus has five? Whereas ‘what the fuck is this’ basically looks like it should be tamper-resistant Torx Plus?
I guess they wanted to make the screws even more tamper-resistant? With the standard Torx Tamper-Resistant screws, they could often be bypassed by chiseling the pin away with a flathead and a hammer, and then using a standard Torx driver. Can’t do that with the pentalobular design!
the worst is not when the screwdriver is fucked but the screw is. That is some huge pain in the ass
Torx doesn’t get fucked though, compared to alan or philips
What about square drive… where does it fit in
Fun fact: There are plenty of times a screw that looks like a Philips head is also compatible with a square drive. I’ve mostly seen this on electrical outlets and Ikea furniture.
I don’t know why Robertson/square drives aren’t more common. They’re stable and they resist stripping and rounding.
You mean Pozidriv?
That’s right, it goes in the square hole.
Robertson is the proto-torxs. It is a vast improvement over Phillips but has a tendency to snap the head off due to the increased amount of torque you can apply. Torxs maintains the amount of torque that a Robertson can apply, but adds some material back to the head giving it a little extra strength.
It’s really unfortunate that the greed of Robertson and Ford got in the way of such a vastly superior design.That much of material is not much of material.
Robertson! Say his name!
I was saying it in Mercian for our southern neighbours
I’m not american so you wasted it anyways
wait really? I would imagine those small corners would easily get flattened compared to something with deeper ridges like philips
Yeah, it was made with torque in mind (like, it’s in the name lol). For smaller screws using an impact, you can expect to break the screw before you strip the torx on top. And by smaller I don’t mean tiny, more like M4, M5
Phillips strips way, way easier than Torx. Stripping generally happens when a screwdriver cams out, or pops out of the screw. Here are some excerpts from Wikipedia of Torx vs Phillips.
The hexalobular socket screw drive, often referred to by the original proprietary brand name Torx ( /ˈtɔːrks/) or by the alternative generic name star drive, uses a star-shaped recess in the fastener with six rounded points. It was designed to permit increased torque transfer from the driver to the bit compared to other drive systems. The drive was developed in 1967[44] by Camcar Textron.[45] Torx is very popular in the automotive and electronics industries because of resistance to cam out, and extended bit life, as well as reduced operator fatigue by minimizing the need to bear down on the drive tool to prevent cam out.
And Philips on the other hand:
The Phillips screwdriver design has a tendency to cam out during operation due to angled contact surfaces which create an axial force pushing the driver out of the recess as torque is applied. Despite popular belief,[2] there is no clear evidence that this was a deliberate design feature. When the original patent application was filed in 1933, the inventors described the key objectives as providing a screw head recess that (a) may be produced by a simple punching operation and which (b) is adapted for firm engagement with a driving tool with “no tendency of the driver to cam out”.
I’m not sure about Allen. It doesn’t cam out very much, but it does still strip a lot easier than Torx. Probably due to the smaller contact points.
Well said.
And with the hex/Allen, it’s the small contact points as well as the smaller volume of material that needs to be deformed or removed before slippage can occur, as well as the angle of force on the contact point.
With a hex, the contact point and direction are such that the tool is effectively trying to scrape off material at an angle, and if/when it succeeds even a little bit, it’s now much more prone to fail.
With a Torx, the contact area might still be small, but it’s being applied to the lobe in a more perpendicular direction, so rather than a scraping failure, it’s more of a force that is pushing directly against steel instead of scraping. Not that it can’t fail, but the route to failure is significantly less likely.
Maybe because different material? Obviously CrV steel won’t get fucked like chinesium, no matter the shape.
Plus what?!
Torx++
Not to be confused with Torx#
Don’t discount hex, paired with a ball-end wrench, those are great for odd angles or tight spaces a straight wrench can’t get too.
they’re pretty good but semi liable to stripping due to lower surface area, as long as you use the right tool, and a quality one, you’ll be fine though.
Also hex is somewhat inter-compatible with torx, which is really cursed.
Torx are easier to strip, especially the smaller sizes. They’re pretty much single use screws.
small screws in general are just easy to strip. Small torx is also liable to breaking a driver, like most small screws and drivers.
Torx though, i’ve never had strip out once, even doing construction with them. Phillips on the other hand, they kill screws constantly, and the bits themselves get all chewed up causing all kinds of problems. Torx bits still look fine though.
Torx aren’t exactly tapered, so they much less of a problem with stripping, compared to any tapered design, because tapered designs have issues with backing off.
small screws in general are just easy to strip
Hexes are very sturdy. I ride mountain bikes and for some reason brake rotors are secured with Torx while all other screws are hexes. Torx on rotors are usually tightened to 4-6Nm and they are single use 99% of the time. At the same time there are plenty of hexes of the same size which are tightened to 8-10Nm and there are zero issues.
Torx are fucking useless. And don’t get me started on tiny Torxes in laptops…
you’re not using like, soft fasteners or some shit right?
I could see hex performing better on a softer material. That or you’re doing something goofy. I’d be surprised if torx were stripping at that low of a torque rating, unless ur using hex drivers on them or something.
Fasteners are standard from rotor manufacturers. I have no clue what they’re made out of. But in 30 years of cycling I’ve never had a single Torx which would last more than one cycle of screw in screw out.
that’s bizarre. Torx are commonly used in construction with impact drivers, and in vehicles as well. Very rarely are they ever problematic, and that’s with quite significant shock loading as well as torque application in the case of construction, i would imagine more than in a bike, but i wouldn’t be able to say off the top of my head, though they might be bigger standard head sizes, so that could be it.
Regardless, begs the question why hex screws aren’t in construction, those should be simpler and easier to produce.
Lmao you’ve clearly never met Philips.
And if you’re advocating slotted screws (flathead) you’ve already lost.
Torx is supreme. The end.
Robertson is superior.
sell them in the continental US then >:(
There are basically none here in the 50 states. You can find em, along 50x more torx screws…
No slot shaming!
Hex is supreme, torx is mental health problem
Hex strips itself constantly. Torx never does that.
