Summary
College enrollment among 18-year-old freshmen fell 5% this fall, with declines most severe at public and private non-profit four-year colleges.
Experts attribute the drop to factors including declining birth rates, high tuition costs, FAFSA delays, and uncertainty over student loan relief after Supreme Court rulings against forgiveness plans.
Economic pressures, such as the need to work, also deter students.
Despite declining enrollment, applications have risen, particularly among low- and middle-income students, underscoring interest in higher education. Experts urge addressing affordability and accessibility to reverse this trend.
Education to any level should be free at the point of use. Hell I’d even go as far as to say people should be given a (non-means-tested) grant if they go into higher education. We need more smart people.
The more educated & informed a society is, the more productive, safe and free it is. No one should deny themselves the education they otherwise want because they can’t afford it.
But Trump loves the poorly educated.
Man this is the most anti capitalist way of looking at things. This is basically socialism. Not a single NA country would support this system for Europe it’s a different story tho.
Edit: you guys are idiots I’m literally telling you why it doesn’t happen and you downvote me. In my opinion USA is a third world country as long as healthcare is a for profit business. Capitalism is akin to peasants and lords all over again which is why unions form because the working class have to force it to be fair. You are living in a society that values money more than anything and therefore you are just a number they give you one as well to define your being.
You sound surprised to find out that not everyone here thinks capitalism is perfect.
Genuinely baffling anyone like that would even find this place.
This is basically socialism.
I live in the UK, a capitalist country.
The Scottish have this already, everyone gets free education including university, no strings. In England we only have it for people from lower economic backgrounds (via means tested grants to pay tuition), but still, we still do it for some people. It’s not a remotely absurd idea.
Hell even most pragmatic capitalists would agree that a free-at-the-point-of-use education system is generally a good investment in the labour pool. If skilled workers are rare, they have negotiating power, and we know how much capitalists just love workers that are able to negotiate from a position of power.
Yeah, and?
They essentially described how the US primary education system works, and prerry much how secondary education worked until Regan.
That you think it’s “socialism” and therefore impossible is a reinforcement of hard-right elitist propaganda.
Think about it: What is socialism? It’s collectively funding or working on things via the government. There’s many competing definitions but that’s basically all there is to it.
Under that definition we’re already living under socialism:
- Fire departments
- Police
- Infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc)
- Weather services
- USPS
- The entire military as a construct
With socialism the people get a say in how such things are run. In private institutions they don’t. That’s the biggest realistic difference.
Either way people are still paying for these things. If they’re not really competitive then private industry will fleece the masses because that’s what capitalism encourages (see: Healthcare). If there’s a robust, competitive market then socialism can fall behind in things like innovation and price.
Whether or not something is funded-and-run by the government is irrelevant. What matters is the value. If government can provide a better value for a dollar than private industry it should. If the people don’t like the result they can change it or use a private alternative.
Sure, they’ll be paying extra (on top of taxes) for the private alternative but at least it’s an option. If the government isn’t providing an alternative to private institutions then there’s really no option at all. Best anyone can do is vote with their wallet but as we can all see that just doesn’t work in certain industries (in fact, entire caregories of need!) and services.
Republicans hate all of those but thr police and military
Not to mention bank and corporate bailouts. Socialism for the rich, harsh darwinism for the poor.
I love it when people participate in the Overton window right-wing ratchet and think they’re just being pragmatic.
I didn’t even know this site had enough people to downvote someone this much this quickly. You’re breaking ground with your idiocy. 👏🎉
This is basically socialism
You say that like it’s a bad thing?
And K-12 is just an arbitrary number. Paying for college would just be extending what we already do.
I didn’t read it as them saying it was a bad thing…
Sounds to me like people are realizing that the price of college isn’t worth it. You take on thousands in debt that can’t be discharged in bankruptcy, you get a degree that doesn’t guarantee a job.
The lie of college for all is only meant to generate profit for schools and lenders.
And don’t get me started on textbook scams in college to prohibit used book sales
My prof back in university wrote his own textbook and gave it to us for free.
Best prof I ever had.
My professor wrote his own textbook and sold it to us to supplement his salary.
Higher education is too expensive. Not everyone can afford it. Also, some people can’t go to school full time because they need to work. I know some people would say these people should be able to do both, but that doesn’t work for everyone. If you’re someone who got a degree while working full time, good for you, but I’ve tried working full time and going to school and I found it to be really difficult. If there comes a point where people decide they have to choose between school and work, well, school is going to lose every time because school doesn’t pay the rent.
Yup, and since public schools only teach kids to regurgitate curated information, critical thinking and proper researching skills are paywalled.
I’m bracing for this right now. I’m working casual hours while I go to full time schooling but part of that schooling includes unpaid placements, I’m absolutely dreading not having income for basically half a year while i’m on the hook for tuition, bills/rent, transportation ect…
You don’t have any flexibility if you work and go to school at the same time. Extracurriculars are tough. Internships doubly so, you can also just forget them if they’re unpaid and temporary.
The Baumol Effect is killing us here. The more productivity gains we make in manufacturing, IT, and other technology boosted fields, the more unaffordable education will get.
That’s interesting. It would be more interesting if universities didn’t use tuition to rebuild their sport complex every ten years.
Oh that’s a whole other issue: inter-university competition. They’re all competing with each other over the same pool of students. Each one spends money to attract students away from the other schools who then spend money to attract them back.
They’re competing for very specific students too though, the kind that become big giving Alumni.
I work full time and do school and its fucking exhausting.
We don’t need lots of educated people to make products anyway. Mostly just need one engineer to design something, then a bunch to industrialize it and then a mass of people to man/woman the industrialized system that makes the part…ordering, configuration management, incoming inspection, part distribution, manufacturing (assembly work), packaging, shipping, etc, etc. 1 engineer at the top makes a shit ton of people or can make a shit ton of people have a job. So don’t need a lot of engineers. But it sure would be nice if you had lots of engineers working together. That’s best for having airplanes whose doors don’t pop open via the DFMEA process and other such design tools.
The purpose of education isn’t production. The purpose of education is to learn.
And then do what with it after they “learned” something?
That’s up to them. It’s largely the point. To learn what you want so you can do what you want.
Hmmm I wonder if this has anything to do with the FUCKING ASTRONOMICAL TUITION
And some of these schools have incredibly large endowments. The tuition should account for the cost of the professors time (and they should be paid fucking well) and whatever minimal costs for using the facilities would be split amongst the thousands of students. But the tuition money goes to the administration and other money pits that do absolutely nothing to benefit the students.
My daughter did one semester and has spent the last year paying off debt from it, she paid off the big bill at least. She wants to go back, but this time at least she’s listening to us about paying in-state tuition and not living in the dorms etc.
Which I personally feel sucks for personal growth. no way i woukd have survived my first year without being so far from home. Plus It was nice doing homework with everyone on whim instead of planning times.
Yeah the cost FAR exceeded the value for out of state tuition plus dorms. And as her dad, I’m only two weeks from no income. I am self employed and have been contracted with a small nonprofit, but my pay is ending and I don’t qualify for unemployment. All of my savings have been blown the last few years. Unfortunately when it comes to her college stuff, for now she’s on her own.
My partner got 70k in loans because parents were in the same boat at the time. Still paying them off almost 20 years later. Travesty anyone would be in this position.
Concerning? To whom? The people who profit massively off of students, many of which are going deep into debt?
Think of how stupid the average person is and now imagine how stupid they are if they are 5% less educated on average
I would say it is concerning for the future of America maybe?
I dunno, just a wild guess.
Personally, I think the fact that people believe they need to go to college as a prerequisite to success is part of the problem.
I honestly think college is mostly a cultural staple for middle income families at this point. It’s four years of “discovering yourself” and postponing adulthood.
The benefits of a college education are pretty difficult to quantify, unless your intended career requires undergrad.
However, building a career from 0 is pretty painful, and I don’t think most people would have the stomach for it.
An individual person does not need to go to college to be successful, no.
A nation of people will want a certain % of its population to be at least college educated for a myriad of reasons that I don’t think I need to explain here (including to be successful).
When we see a trend of that % decreasing, it makes sense to take notice.
I so hope this is true. We have an extremely anxious teenager waiting for his early decision results expected out this week. I hope for every advantage he can get
Colleges are also trying to address this by seriously lowering standards.
One thing I make money doing is essentially getting intellectually disabled people through college. I’m not ragging on my clients, but it’s become very clear to me that universities are less interested in educating these people than they are taking their parent’s money.
I was looking through one of the discussion forums for one of my clients’ English classes and it was genuinely horrifying. I’m talking R1 university, and the majority of the posts were either “AI” generated or were written at a middle school level.
I noticed that too. I was thinking about how housing was getting more and more restricted on campus to cater to ever greater numbers of first year students. And then it dawned on me that the second, third, and fourth year groups weren’t growing by much. In fact the second you got out of first year classes it was suddenly possible to have 15-20 person classes in main requirements.
I wonder how many other universities are treating first year students as cash revenue? Bringing in as many as they can, knowing they won’t make it past spring semester?
It’s prolific, for certain. I have been reading research papers for a laboratory class (3000 level) that are written over the entire semester with a group. They contain errors so horrific that I don’t understand how the student passed any writing class. There were entire paragraphs without a single complete sentence, and others where another paper was cited without any connection to what was being said.
I’m not joking when I say that our response at the academic/instructional level during the COVID pandemic has ruined the intellect of a segment of the population. Combine that with the push I saw ten years ago while working in lower grades to pass students to the next grade regardless of their capabilities and the greed of colleges to get those first year students, as Maggoty mentions, and it’s a perfect storm.
Congratulations on pricing people out of a college education, have fun with that.
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I’m an old fart and I feel terrible about the cost of college for the past couple of decades. When I went, the max you could borrow was $2500/year on a GSL. But you could work very part time to afford it. Things started tightening with Reagan being elected. I didn’t get any work study year 2. But we could declare financial independence so years 3 and 4, I got Pell Grants, more work study etc. Every quarter, I’d get a check back from the Bursar after paying tuition and books. And that didn’t include my GSL.
I graduated with about $12k in student loans. $10k was my GSL and it was paid back at $105/mo for 10 years.
In an ideal world: Oh no! Some of those useless administrators might have to be let go if they aren’t getting the tuition or attendance they budgeted for!
In reality: They will cut the music program, funding for clubs or anything else beneficial to students before recognizing the glut of useless admins.
In college there’s no need for a music department unless there’s a class offered, in which case you need the music department? Or maybe we play the administrative skin flutes until they sing or something?
“Student loans” are now one of the most ubiquitous phrases in politics and it’s synonymous with “a burden you can never escape” so it makes sense that the folks who can use assistance will avoid it. The entire fight about student loans has always been to highlight the cost and make some folks turn away from higher education all together. Education has always been under attack for as long as most of us have been alive and this is another front in the war.
First they attack public education and exhaust teachers with overwork with underpayment. Now the right wants to attack Academia, the source of science which shows how destructive the current system has become and how it will evolve. Elon will probably entirely axe FAFSA and funding for higher education, with the aim to have their endowments fed by wealthy elite who dictate what makes it onto a syllabus. The right is so fucking exhausting.
For me it seems as if those subsidized and guaranteed loans were a bad idea (a system with positive feedback) in their entirety.
The reason education costs are so outrageous is the market created by their existence. And the loans themselves are a perpetually growing moneymaking machine. It’s like pouring water into Saharan sand.
American student loans are a scam anyways. The interest rates are outrageous and the federal government subsidizing them, but then they get handled by private businesses in a system know for failure and fraud.
Student loan forgiveness shouldnt be a thing. It shows that the system is trash to begin with and the “forgiveness” remains arbitrary and is just a carrot on a stick.
Make a system where the loans are granted directly by the government and dont incurr interest. No for profit skimming middleman, no permanent debt. Offer a regulated bonus for people who pay back X% before Y years pass, so people are incentivized to pay back quickly, rather than delaying payback.
More importantly remove the outrageous enrollment costs per semester.
Is it a scam when it’s your only option? Seems more like a gouge to me.
It is cheaper to live in Europe for the duration of the degree. I have friends who did this.
It’s on the same level as loan sharking
Yeah, but you generally don’t have the choice of either going to a loan shark or not being able to have the career you want for your life.
I’m just thinking ‘scam’ is the wrong word when no one except the wealthy have any other real option. The military and athletic scholarships, I guess?
Racketeering.
The interest rates are outrageous
They’re in line with other loans.
It’s outrageous that a loan for higher education comes with an interest rate at all. The increased productivity of a college graduate should cover the need to profit off the loan. Extra silly because as a graduate you only see compensation for a paltry fraction of that increased productivity.
Depends, some are some aren’t.
However, in my opinion, the thing that makes student loans crazy is how the payments are structured.
With other big lifetime loans (mortgage, car, etc.), they are structured with a fixed term and the interest is factored in from the beginning. You pay $X a month for Y years, and that’s it, it’s all paid off. All you have to do is keep up with those payments, and you know how much they’ll be from the time you agree to the loan.
Student loans are structured more like credit cards. If you just pay how much they tell you to, interest will accrue, the loan grows, it capitalizes, and the term is indefinite. You can pay on it consistently for decades and never make any progress.
There’s practically no assistance to figure out how much you really need to pay, and sometimes even attempting to overpay to cover the interest doesn’t help, as they’ll apply the extra towards the next payment instead, and so extra interest still accrues.
They’re in line with other loans.
Which is the problem. Loans used to be 3%, now they are 7 to 8%
7% is a scam. You wouldnt buy a house on 7% interest rates. And an education seems to be a safer investment. Especially for the government that should have an interest in education to drive the economy.
Where do you think housing mortgage rates were a couple of years ago?
They used to be at 3-4% in 2019-2020. Holy hell, you are at almost 7% now. Let me reprhase then: the US is a scam. 7% on a 30 year mortgage means you pay about 40% interest in total on the loan amount.
Wonder if it has to do with all the “college bad. Why go to college for $100k for a $40k job…” social media trends and the “get rich on social media” trend, along with the fact that college can be really expensive.
Incoming graduates saw an entire generation go to college at the highest rates ever just to find a job market that left a record number of them with debt still on their name more than a decade later.
What were once institutions devoted to academia, have become corporate training camps ran by a board that runs the institution with a corporate mentality, and they enrich themselves commesurately.
As an employer who hires folks in the data science field, I’ve become more disappointed in recent college graduate job-readiness every year for the last decade. At this point I’d prefer a resume to say “watched 100 hours of YouTube videos about data science” over a masters in the field.
And these poor people have 100k in student loan debt with no marketable job skills and are competing against 10s of thousands of other recent grads with no marketable job skills and college has created a lose-lose environment.
No wonder enrollment is dropping, the cost of the education is absolutely not worth it and people are starting to see it.
When I interview new grads, I’m not concerned about detailed knowledge of certain technologies. I’m trying to figure out how quickly they can learn. My favorite question is to ask “what was the hardest bug you’ve ever had to solve?”.
Yep. “What’s the most interesting project you’ve been a part of” is my favorite. Same vane, opened the door to so many follow ups.
So often it’s “how do you translate temporal data for a random forest model” and then see run headlights as I have to explain the word temporal and then how feature selection for machine learning actually works.
They are literally only taught the Python code now, with no explanation of why, how, or when certain tools are appropriate. Real “Bang on a nail with a screwdriver long enough” level education.
Well yeah, all the professors have offloaded everything into online learning systems and all of the answers to everything are available online at sites like chegg, then there’s chatgpt now. Nobody is learning anything in college, except how to cheat effectively.
All of my best hires for SE and related positions have been drop outs or self-taught folks. Sometimes there were minor gaps in knowledge of some of the fundamentals, leading to some wheel-inventing but on balance they were far more capable than the average Comp Sci graduate.
The worst hires, almost without exception, were those with graduate degrees. All hat no cattle.
Lol can you give me those YouTube videos. I’ll watch them all really good and you can hire me
Is that in line with fewer potential students being available? The last millennials are done with school now and the generation replacing them aren’t as numerous.
