They’re like that in this apartment we’re renting and I keep seeing them elsewhere. I don’t get it.
at least in part it’s an end result of decades of crud and tech debt, so to speak, accumulating in british power grid and home wiring. they do it this way because otherwise it won’t be safe. continental euro home wiring usually has thicker wires, residual-current circuit breakers and no ring circuits so we get away without fuzes and switches, and with smaller plugs that don’t become caltrops. sometimes we do have ring circuits kind of thing, but not in house wiring, instead it’s in medium voltage distribution grid, and it’s sized so that it can serve most of loads after single failure.
explanation
in normal state, medium voltage line (like 15kV, 20kV) might branch out in rural terrain from substation to two or more places. in case of single failure, mildly common after storms, everything downstream would be down. instead, to increase reliability, every few km there’s a radio-controlled switch and some of the far ends have line between them that is usually disconnected. in case of single failure, damaged segment is cut off, and the far end of the loop switch gets closed. this way power is delivered the long way around the loop, allowing for repairs of the damaged sector in the meantime. this also specifically avoids some of problems of ring circuits especially in situation when some lines might be damaged.
To turn shit on or off
Everything you’d want to know about British wiring and my introduction to Tom Scott:
Safety and convenience versus the cost of including them, I expect.
The Wikipedia page for BS 1363 says they’re optional and weren’t added to the standard until 1967. I can’t recall having seen a domestic socket without one.
But it seems the only legal way to read the actual standard is to pay for it, and even the HSE website isn’t much help.
So basically, this concept was invented by a committee.
Yes, but what’s your point here? “Oh no, someone preserve us from… *checks notes* a group of subject matter experts!”?
If that annoys you for some reason, you’d best not learn how the overwhelming majority of products and services see the light of day. Rage aplenty awaits.
I didn’t have a point, I had a question. And it doesn’t annoy me, I just didn’t know why.
Why are people giving me shit for asking a stupid question in the stupid questions community? Is there a supremely stupid questions community I should have asked instead?
Your original question was answered by numerous people in the spirit of the community, so you have got best answers it can provide at the moment, but your follow-up comments suggest that you don’t think so.
But I may have misjudged your intent, as looking further I can see you’ve been replying to comments individually. My initial impression was that you were masquerading statements as questions. If I have that wrong, then my apologies.
I was genuinely trying to understand.
Yes. Welcome to the UK. You will need to adjust to small aggravations such as this. Good luck.
Allows you to remove power from the plugged in device without unplugging it. This provides convenience to easily and quickly turn things on and off and prevents arcing when unplugging. 240V 13A can arc a bit, particularly if unplugged under load, or on older sockets where the contacts have worn. While a little arcing doesn’t do much damage immediately, over time it will cause pitting and make a high resistance joint that will generate heat.
The switch only disconnects the live terminal, but the neutral terminal should be similar potential to earth (depending on how the building is wired).
Truly the king of plugs and sockets. The plugs are individually fused according to the device needs, ergonomic to use and exciting to stand on.
How many devices do you have that don’t have a switch on the device itself?
Makes sense, American lie voltage (outlets) are 120V. 240V is considered high voltage and isn’t typically fed into residential units. Plugging anything rated for 120V into a 240V outlet is gonna be a bad time, and is why the outlets for high voltage are shaped differently.
I was gonna guess that the switches were too negate so-called vampire power, which is when a truck’s of electricity flows into appliances that are normally off. IMO that trickle is so negligible in a residence that is 6 effectively irrelevant, but that’s just here in the US. I don’t know anything about foreign electrical systems.
240 is used all the time for furnaces, driers, and increasingly EV outlet connections.
It’s just all our “normal” stuff is 120.
I wish our electric kettle outlets were 240. I’m unreasonably jealous that other places in the world can boil water faster!
I think you can have it, but you’d need to spend a pretty penny.
All it would take is calling an electrician to run the appropriate wiring from the place you want the kettle plugged in to you breaker box, connect it to the breaker box with the appropriate breaker, cap off the other end with the appropriate plug (a 240V plug does exist in America), and then buy a kettle capable of receiving the rated voltage and current and splice on the appropriate plug (because I presume you won’t find one sold with that plug).
An extremely expensive way to save maybe three minutes boiling water, but you can do it.
Allows you to remove power from the plugged in device without unplugging it. This provides convenience to easily and quickly turn things on and off and prevents arcing when unplugging.
That’s exactly what I do, because it’s more convenient than unplugging everything.
I live in South Africa, where we had rolling blackouts (called loadshedding) for a few years. It’s easier to switch everything back on when the power comes back than to plug it back into a socket without a switch, especially with my fucked up spine.
The electricity in the place I live was done poorly, so having something plugged in “live” risks a surge or something and then the appliance gets fucked and then everything smells like burnt plastic.
And that’s the best case scenario. Others have had housefires.
Also, the South African plugs aren’t pleasant accidentally to step on. It won’t pierce your foot, but it can still hurt like a motherfucker for a few seconds if you step on it in the wrong way.
Those UK plugs do look a lot more nasty to step on. I shudder at the thought.
I like the EU and US two prong cables ( 🔌?) where the prongs are parallel to the cable, but not the cables with the orthogonal prongs.
I like the EU and US two prong cables ( 🔌?) where the prongs are parallel to the cable, but not the cables with the orthogonal prongs.
Non-grounded plugs aren’t that great, though, and once you add the third prong the plug gets much less flat. Compare:
Maybe Italy and Chile have the best idea in terms of slim grounded plugs, although the lack of polarity might be a problem?
Also, IMO right-angle plugs are often better than straight ones because you can put furniture closer up against them and do so without stressing the cable.
right-angle plugs are often better than straight ones because you can put furniture closer up against them and do so without stressing the cable.
Yeah that is definitely a huge bonus. I’ve taken it for granted.
We’re slowly adopting three pronged Italian/Chilean-type plugs that will be “backwards-compatible” with the EU plugs. I have no clue about polarity or anything like that.
New sockets include em. The original three pronged socket is kind of a hazard. Kids can stick their fingers in there. Not sure how that got approved.
Wait until you step on with bare feet an upturned UK plug. Worse than stepping on Lego
why would the lack of polarity be a problem? the outlets only deliver AC, and everything plugged into them are made for AC.
I gotta admit I don’t entirely understand it either, but people claim it matters. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-is-the-correct-polarity-important-with-ac.979324/
exciting to stand on
Thanks, I hate it.
No one seemed to mention the important fact that UK and I think most Europe is a higher voltage than the US. Tom Scott as well as Technology Connections have some good videos on the whys and differences it causes.
Weird that you think anywhere other than North America has 110v electric
I think Japan has but literally every other country is 230
France used to have 110v too, it started to be phased out and replaced by the 220v in the 1950s.
Wow only 70 years ago
Not related but another surprising thing about our shared standards is that Sweden used to drive on the left until 1967. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H
As on the Wikipedia map, you see it’s essentially North and Central America, Japan, Taiwan and some Pacific islands plus some countries where there is a mix of standards.
It’s also kind of misleading. This map labels North America as 115-120V like everyone always does, when in fact it’s ALSO a 240V system, it’s just that the “common” plug and the “typical” circuit don’t use it, they only use half of a center-tapped 240V line. So that’s the “standard” they choose to use to label the whole system.
But it’s kind of unfair. It’s 240V coming into the house just like everywhere else in the world, except you also get the choice for it to be 120V. Being split-phase makes it easy to run multiple 120V circuits with a minimum of wire and still allows 240V for high-wattage appliances on their own dedicated circuits. It’s actually a very clever system and basically every house is effectively supplied with both voltages. It’s often poorly utilized, yes, with a few practical limitations and a lot of limitations due to historical conventions, but as a technical design it’s really kind of the best of both worlds, and it could be utilized a lot more effectively than it is.
If I was allowed to have an outlet with two 120V sockets, and one 240V European-style socket, there’s no technical reason I could not safely do that in a single outlet box. I could choose to plug in whatever I want at either voltage as long as it wasn’t more than 15 amps. Of course code would never allow that, because we consider the higher voltage “more dangerous” but it’s always right there, across two opposite phase 120V lines. We’re just not allowed to use it, except for large electrical appliances like air conditioners and clothes dryers. It’s frustrating.
UK kettles use the standard 240V mains and it’s excellent. Under 2 minutes to boil 3 US Pints with a 3000 Watt kettle.
By that logic, Europe should be labeled with 400 V, as this is the voltage between any two of the three 230 V phases connected to each household.
It is commonly used to power ovens or instant-on water heaters (Durchlauferhitzer, not kettles). Crafts, industry and even some households have IEC 60309 5-pin connectors for movable heavy gear.
Having grown up with it I missed those tbh. Makes saving power easier lol
Does it? Can’t you just turn off the device instead?
A lot of devices can be turned off, but they still use power. So you can waste electricity even though the devices are “off”.
Things like normal table lamps aren’t the problem, it is stuff like TVs, computers, stereos, etc.
yes.
Im from the states and live in Ireland. Here, people unplug lamps when they leave for the weekend. Dozens of times, I’ve had to plug lamps back in when coming into the office over a weekend or things like Christmas break.
I’ve also had to explain to at least 5-6 people that something that does not draw power by being plugged in, such as a toaster, electric kettle or light fixture (unlike a computerized device that has a stand-by mode) is not “wasting power” unless you unplug it or turn the outlet switch off.
I had a person at a party tell me their father was an electrician and taught her to turn the switches that lead to anything such as lamps OFF when they’re not being used because it costs electricity to “keep the wire charged”. True story.
Mainly they exist because there weren’t central fuse boxes for a while due to wartime copper shortages.
Mainly they exist because there weren’t central fuse boxes for a while due to wartime copper shortages.
Someone elsewhere in the thread pointed out that the Wikipedia page for BS 1363 says they’re optional and weren’t added to the standard until 1967.
huh! shit. thanks
turn the switches that lead to anything such as lamps OFF when they’re not being used because it costs electricity to "keep the wire charged
Lol what a donkey. For anyone that’s unaware, your meter spins when current is flowing, when a device is actively using power. If there’s no current flowing, the meter isn’t spinning. Just because a wire has potential doesn’t mean it’s actively drawing current, it only means it’s ready to do something, and any device that has the main feeder going through a physical switch (ie no standby like a computer or tv) has zero current path when the switch is open/off. Even devices in standby are drawing such a negligible amount of power that it doesn’t matter.
My mom used to unplug everything all the time, and it took years to convince her that’s not how that works. She only finally got it when I became an electrician.
You can test this theory yourself if you have a multimeter. Select ohms/continuity, and put the leads across the two prongs. If there is a resistance value present, it will draw current. If it says OL or 0 ohms, that means open line and it won’t draw anything.
the only thing that would make a shred of sense would be reactive power from plugged but unused transformers and the like, and for this reason you should disconnect these when not in use. but the only loads of this type that matter are welders and such
All plug points in India also have (regular sized, not these tiny ones) switches to control them
Huh, it’s interesting- Here the power switches are a similar size to the UK, so when I searched up a picture of the Indian switches I thought they were ridiculously giant, not like regular sized UK/Australian ones
I guess it’s just whatever you’re used to is the ‘regular’.
Are light switches the same? What happens when you have a lot of switches together, like six or eight? Do you just have really wide banks of switches?
Yeah there are cases where you have to take a sharpie or a label to know which ones are which when there are too many switches all setup together
They usually look like this though
The one closest to the plug point controls it
Being a uk person its cause they can & its also in to building / electric code. Its just a switch that breaks the live leg, stops sparking when plugging in stuff.
Your sockets spark when you plug something in?
All will if there is a load. Doesn’t matter ac of dc or even load. Plug an ethernet cable in and there will be a spark.
Most of the time the spark is tiny and you need a good lab to measure it though.
I’ve definitely had that happen to me, sort of at random, in the U.S.
But it doesn’t seem to have any effect. It’s not like a gigantic spark and it’s pretty contained.
Oh I’ve never seen that in the US, maybe I just didn’t notice
Home electricity in North America has roughly half the voltage as elsewhere in the world, and double the voltage is double the arcing potential, so that figures.
Laptop power bricks is probably where I see it most. Or if you plug in something with a motor already switched on. Listen for a soft popping noise if you plug in a big power brick.
You’re right, now that I think about it. Laptop power does it more than anything else.
Many, many big power-smoothing capacitors inside those jumping from 0 to 120V in a microsecond, that’s why. The better-smoothed the power supply, the more capacitors and the bigger the sparks tend to be, although some really high quality ones put most of them behind inrush-current limiters to reduce the sparking, but that can also marginally reduce efficiency. High power electronics are always a bit of a tradeoff. The problem is that capacitors charge and discharge almost instantly in most cases, and when empty they act like a short circuit until they’re filled, so they can create some pretty big sparks, even though the actual energy going in is minuscule by any reasonable measurement. It’s almost like a static shock, huge spark, tiny energy.
Some motors will also spark badly when disconnected, but the reason is slightly different. They have a huge electromagnetic field which suddenly fills or collapses and that inductance in the coils can draw a lot of amps on startup and generate some pretty high voltages, more than enough to spark across the gap. Like the capacitors, they are very nearly a short circuit until they start moving.
Ah, this is fantastic. I learned some stuff, thank you.
No, unless something is very wrong. I don’t know if that was maybe a bigger problem with older devices though. I remember being taught to turn the socket off before plugging things in or taking them out when I was a kid
Kind of off topic, but I’ve just gotta add that the safety shutters over the positive and negative terminals that only open when the ground pin (which is longer than the others on the plug) is inserted up top is brilliant, it basically makes short circuiting impossible. Electrical outlet design is one of the few things I’ll concede the UK does better than the rest of the world.
I too am relatively envious of the UK’s outlet design, I only hate how bulky and foot destroying they are.
Maybe, but with the switches on the sockets, I hardly ever unplug anything at all unless I’m moving it. Why would I?
So pretty much every time something’s unplugged, it’s in my hand or away in a cupboard, never lying on the floor.
I’d like to think Australia has a nice middle ground design to their sockets/plugs without the foot destroying bulk. Still get the shutter variants for bathrooms too.
I like the Australian 90 degree plugs, too. Much slimmer than the UK ones.
Tom Scott has a video all about the UK power outlet plug and socket and it’s an engineering marvel. The switch is just one feature.
The switch isn’t really a a feature of the UK plug, rather just something they seem to have started doing with their sockets.
Well, the design of the plug also implies the design of the socket. I was born in the eighties, and I’ve never seen an electrical socket without a switch, except for the appliance socket used for the cooker, which is behind where you install the appliance - the switch is higher up, above the countertop where it is accessible.
Basic extension trailing sockets don’t, most of the time unless you buy a snazzy one. But it’s by no means a recent development.
Plug and socket obviously go together but I just mean that you could have the switches for any plug, it’s not tied to the plug but just rather what socket plate (or what’s the term) design is adopted. Schuko could have those switches, I think Yanks have them in newer plug plates and so on. It’s just that the UK has adopted (in a standard or just commonly for some other reason) the switches.
Yeah, I can only tut and shake my head when non-Brits complain about stepping on Lego.
the safety shutters over the positive and negative terminals that only open when the ground pin (which is longer than the others on the plug) is inserted up top is brilliant
The US is catching up in that regard, at least, with tamper-resistant (TR) outlets being mandated by the NEC since 2008.
It’s balanced by light switches being outside of the bathroom, which I absolutely hate.
You can have a pull cord in the bathroom or a switch outside, as I understand it
You can’t have standard switch inside?
I’m currently renting an Airbnb where the bathroom fan switch is in the living room, two rooms over
Good for announcing guests that you’re going to take a shit and they’d better shuffle off
when any electricity leaks out (for example through your body) it switches off. the eu also has the same system, but its one switch for your entire house. the us also has this but only in bathrooms.
These aren’t automatic switches, but other people explained the reasoning.
oh, according to electroboom they were gfci.
They’re connected to an RCD, as modern UK wiring has all sockets connected via an overall RCD in the fusebox, but the switches on the socket are just basic on/off switches.
GFCI circuits are required by code around sinks and the like. Bathrooms, kitchens, utility wet rooms, etc.
You can relatively easily install them anywhere you want though.
We got wm in Australia as well.
“so many”?
isn’t it all of them?
All of them in the UK.
i live in malta, we inherited your plugs and sockets. Never seen one without a switch over here. Til
No not all of them.
Source, I was born here.
I like them, personally. You don’t have to use them but they are sometimes handy. I just spent 30 seconds feeling around a TV to turn it off only to discover it doesn’t have buttons. Killed it at the wall.
It’s not a deal breaker, in any case. The weird foreign convention I would like to shame is doors that require a key to open from the inside.
I just spent 30 seconds feeling around a TV to turn it off only to discover it doesn’t have buttons.
Ugh. That annoys the shit out of me. Our dog chewed up the TV remote when she was a puppy, but only got to the power button. But since the TV had no physical buttons, we couldn’t turn it on and off anymore until we got a new remote.
I have an old android phone I keep around because it has an IR LED on top and I loaded it with a few free universal remote apps. They all work offline and it’s come in handy so many times.
Some new models also still include ir blasters. Good stuff
The weird foreign convention I would like to shame is doors that require a key to open from the inside
You can’t lock yourself out with those
But you can lock yourself in. During a house fire.
You can lock yourself in with the other type too.
No you can’t. You can lock yourself out, but a typical residential house built to code in North America has a latch handle that always turns from the inside, even when locked, and usually unlocks by doing so to prevent accidental lock-outs. And likewise if the door has a deadbolt, it must have a deadbolt with a handle on the inside. Most other kinds of locks are also easily accessible and removed by hand from the inside. The point is that they can’t require a key from the inside, because if you can’t find the key then you are locked inside and in thick smoke and fire that the key may be impossible to reach. If any egress door requires a key to unlock from the inside it is considered a serious fire hazard and will never pass a code inspection. (Of course, foolish people can still add them later but you can’t prevent stupid and it’s still a fire hazard not to mention impractical)
These types of building code and fire code rules are typically written in blood. People have died because of this.
All house doors/egress doors in Brazil require keys to unlock. BUT (and it’s a big but) most houses here are made of bricks, with ceramic roofs.
It does make sense to have easy-to-escape houses when they are built of flammable materials with an accelerant for a roof.
You can burn to death, though.
The weird foreign convention I would like to shame is doors that require a key to open from the inside.
Huh. Where have you seen those? Seems dangerous.
We mostly just leave the key in them unless I’m going on holiday.
If somebody is going to steal my stuff while I’m away, I’m going to make them work for it.
They’re used where there are windows close enough that, if broken by an intruder, the intruder would be able to operate the lock.
The better solution is, of course, to not use such doors.
I usually see keyed from the inside locks when there is glass in/near the door to prevent someone from breaking the glass, reaching in and unlocking the door.
If a burger is gonna break the glass, a keyed lock isn’t going to deter them. Unless it’s like only a tiny glass window on the door.
If a burger is going to break the glass, it’s either really bad glass or a really bad burger.
I stand by what I said.
Can’t that be prevented by safety glass instead? Doors that need a key to open from the inside risk trapping people inside the building.
Americans don’t have this???
Not that I have ever seen.
Not just Americans. You won’t even commonly see them in mainland Europe
We just don’t unplug anything ever. We usually have an room that’s on a wall switch near the lights.
We do have ground fault circuit interrupt (GFCI) outlets, which are required when a socket is within a certain distance of a water source but can be installed on all outlets if you want. They have a little breaker inside that trips automatically if it detects a problematic difference in current flow.
They’re not on/off switches but you could press the “test” button on the outlet to break the circuit.
I’ve also seen some whole outlets that are switched on/off from a light switch elsewhere in the room. Those are super annoying because there’s no required indication that they work that way so you get to find out for yourself.
In my little Eastern European shithole, GFCI relays are required for any apartment or house, installed to the incoming power main. Is that not a thing over there?
You can install GFCI breakers, but it’s not code to require them for every circuit.
wikipedia says that not for a long time:
Beginning with underwater swimming pool lights (1968) successive editions of the code have expanded the areas where GFCIs are required to include: construction sites (1974), bathrooms and outdoor areas (1975), garages (1978), areas near hot tubs or spas (1981), hotel bathrooms (1984), kitchen counter sockets (1987), crawl spaces and unfinished basements (1990), near wet bar sinks (1993), near laundry sinks (2005)[26], in laundry rooms (2014)[27] and in kitchens (2023)
american electrical code has so much of weird shit that would be illegal out there, it’s dazzling. you can’t get three-phase power as a regular customer, but you can as an industrial, but only as 480V interphase. there are like 7 different mains voltages available. it would be illegal in europe to come up with something like “high-leg delta” but it’s a thing out there
most places don’t. it’s a very british empire thing.
Nope. We’re also on 120v so that could be part of it.
Sometimes we have specific plugs that are wired to a wall switch that can be used to turn those specific outlets on and off. All the examples I know of are for standing lamps, so they can be turned on an off like ceiling lights.
I’ve only seen this a few times, including my current house.
It’s been code for a long time that every room must have a switched lighting source, and before recessed lights became more common or if the original builder didn’t put a ceiling light or wall sconce, you’d have a switched outlet for a lamp. Typically it’s only half of one outlet though, unless your house was wired by a crackhead like mine.
Not having a switched light source makes some sense as most of the rooms in my house had ceiling fans without lights installed, which we switched to fans with lights. There was an extra switch for the light in the ceiling fan that didn’t do anything until we put it in. The switches did go to the lower plug on a couple of outlets, which was fun to figure out since we hadn’t come across it before!
We also have one switch that goes to an outlet about eight foot up on a wall that I assume was for some decoration to make it easier to turn on and off.
You, ceiling fan outlets count for that requirement, though it’s entertaining when people install a fan without a light and wonder why their switch doesn’t control a light lol. Any time I install a ceiling fan outlet, we always run a 3(+ground) wire cable, two switched power legs, for independent control of lights and fan.
I am so glad they wired it for a potential future light separate from the fan!
They sure skimped on a bunch of other stuff though, like a couple bathroom lights don’t have proper mounting boxes because they didn’t put a 2x4 in the right place and are just mounted to the drywall.
Yeah that happens sometimes, although there is a possibility that a previous owner added a switch after the fact, and had to install a larger box. Some guys will screw a nail-on box to the original mounting stud, but it’s just as easy to add an old work box (the ones with the mounting wings) and call it a day.
Only half of one outlet? That sounds super frustrating. I think it would take me a while to discover that the random light switch that doesn’t do anything is related to the power point where only one side charges my phone.
Yeah, it makes sense from a functional standpoint, being that often you’ll only want to switch on lamp, while having full constant functionality of the other plug.
You basically break that tab between the two screws, then wire the constant power to one, and the switch leg to the other.But yeah, it’s not always consistent where that outlet is located within a room. Like I have the tools to figure it out pretty quick, but you basically just have to take a lamp and plug it into each outlet with the switch off until you find it.
Yeah, I like the idea of being able to switch floor lamps and what not from the doorway. No-one likes the big light, right?
Not sure if I like it enough to implement it in my dream home though. Possibly with some kind of different shaped plug, or a colour code that matches the switch?
My plan for when we build is to run flex conduit for everything, so that if a want to add or move a switched outlet, the option is there.
