I’ve been noticing a recurring sentiment among Americans - frustration and disillusionment with the economy. Despite having gone to school, earned a solid education, and worked hard, many feel they can’t get ahead or even come close to the standard of living their parents enjoyed.
I’m curious - is this experience unique to the United States, or do people in other countries share similar frustrations?
Do people in Europe, Australia, Canada, or elsewhere feel like they’re stuck in a rut, unable to achieve financial stability or mobility despite their best efforts?
Are there any countries or regions that seem to be doing things differently, where education and hard work can still lead to a comfortable life?
Let’s hear from our international community - what’s your experience with economic mobility (or lack thereof) in your country?"
Yes, the same stuff is mirrored in the EU. We also had george floyd protests.
Leads me to believe it’s all more a cultural phenomena. Imitation of the popular rethoric.
Or the post wWII baby boom had similar effects around the world creating a generation whose concentration of wealth has had negative impacts on their society
Economies do not stagnate simply because of popular rhetoric. There are real people making real decisions that cause this to happen. Its not fucking vibes based
No opinion on this as I’m an American, but as evidence I’d point out that ruling parties all over the world have been removed from power.
At some point our species is going to have to move beyond this rapacious zero-sum logic of “unsticking” economies and “getting ahead” and instead learn how to distribute all that wealth better.
Yeah its sorta funny to because I don’t necessarily want to get ahead of my parents, excepting maybe in technology, but I what I really want is sorta the same but with security to have it. Healthcare and citizens income. Im fine if my neighbors have nicer tvs or shit.
Completely agree. It bothers me that so many people can’t see the obvious problem that it’s going to be impossible for 9 billion people to “get ahead” on this small planet that we all have to share and which is already stressed to the limit. Either people just aren’t thinking very deeply or, worse, they’re tacitly assuming that they’ll be the winners and to hell with everyone else.
To personalize this a bit (but not too much!), I can say that I now earn less than I did just after I graduated 20 or so years ago. Far from being a disaster, this was planned and I’m more than happy with the situation. A rising salary should not be destiny. Apart from anything else, time is money and if you have a lot of one then you tend to have not enough of the other.
But yes, every civilized society should guarantee a basic income and healthcare.
That’s the issue I have with a lot of talk about equity or equality even from people on the left. They will practically make it their entire identity, but then when faced with a scenario where they could improve the situation overall for the group at the cost of sacrificing or giving up some amount of privilege or prosperity they pull the latter up. Everyone is about equity and equality when they stand to gain, but they won’t go much out of their way to help things
Note: I am very liberal in a lot of my social beliefs and have a very strong sense of or drive to achieving equity, fairness, and justice. Which often results in making a lot of the people I mentioned above seem kinda phony to me.
My personal experience with this is that I am mildly on the spectrum. Most wouldn’t notice or guess it though due in part to the fact that I somehow managed to balloon animal a lot of the social interaction and language abilities to the problem solving analytical part of my skill set. What this means is that I am always having to “translate” what I’m thinking into normal people talk and normal people talk into how I think with every conversation and interaction.
I don’t even have much of an issue with that aspect perse. I know I’m the odd one out, and while not fair it’s understandable. What is frustrating is how little effort others seem to be willing to put forth. This obviously manifests in relationships the most acutely. I’m not usually even looking for 50/50. I’m more than willing to do the bulk of the work. All I want is for them to meet me somewhere on that bridge. Give me 80/20, 90/10, fuck I’ll take three or four steps onto the bridge, but no. Anything that requires they actively engage in thinking rather than doing everything off of vibes and they nope out so fast. I have had so many conversations where I essentially point out blatant inconsistencies between what they say they believe in (like equity or DEI) and what they actually want said either explicitly or through their actions and they inevitably end up saying something like “it’s just my preference”.
Having a preference doesn’t just absolve a person of hypocrisy, bigotry, racism, or any other belief that disenfranchises or puts down the marginalized and outcast.
Yes, it does seem to be a problem with progressives in recent years, at least in the anglo countries - preferring to talk about abstract ideas of justice and “equity” and group power dynamics etc, rather than engage with what actual poor people are concerned about.
Policing people’s speech is cheaper than agitating for tax rises and healthcare. Just saying.
It’s not just recent. MLK wrote about it in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail in 1963, and he referenced some considerably older sources as well:
Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.
And in another section:
Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals.
Humans are really good at normalizing things. It takes a lot to push someone from theoretical opposition to direct action. It’s harder to get to that point for those not directly suffering the worst oppressions. Dr. King talks about that too.
Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
All fine words no doubt (no irony intended). But for the sake of argument I would argue that we need to give a hearing to everything that poorer people claim to care about, and not just the bits that fit with our priors about what they should want.
I’ll put it In brutal terms. IMO we need to get the Trump-adjacent masses to vote for higher taxes to pay for macro-things like healthcare (in the US) and redistribution and massive action on the environment. If their price is a tough line on immigration and an end to the constant bellyaching about micro-things like systemic racism and trans rights, then I personally am more than fine with that.
Human rights are not “micro-things,” what the fuck? And “maybe if we let them build the camps, they’ll let us have healthcare,” is a wild take
Im in a strange position in that im unemployed at the moment but when I was employed I have done relatively well but my wife has medical issues to where she can’t work and we pay maximum out of pocket every year and then some (we try to limit over out of pocket but we spend a lot of time dealing with denials or uncovered stuff). So basically to get my lifestyle vs the norm you sorta have to use the value of half my wage and then assume a larger than normal monthly nut. Im sorta stuck having to constantly seek more wage but not to live extravagantly but just to keep pace. I don’t really want to have to be doing that I would just like to work at what im good at and be able to relax when im not working. Of course if things worked that way I would likely be working in microbiology now rather than tech. Things are definitely dystopian for me.
Really makes me pleased not to be American when I read things like this. Unfortunately this really is an American exception. These days there are even some pretty poor countries with universal healthcare. It’s just something most countries do as soon as they can afford it, it makes sense in lots of ways. But not America. You have my sympathy.
yeah the us has things (or um does sort since it now seems like its trying to be stamped out) for the poor but it tends to be all or nothing so not much is geared toward preventing folks from falling into poverty or helping people get out of poverty nationally (it also tends to keep itself just barely not quite adequate). There are like charities and states doing inititatives but boy would universal healthcare go a long way to making the middle class more stable or even to grow.
Yup, we can’t continue forever with educated but low-level workers getting 3% raises when the CEO gets a 30% raise.
Sounds like this whole capitalism thing we were sold was a lie. And most countries adopted it or already had that system before the U.S. showed up. Capitalism requires infinite growth, so we artificial insert these boom bust cycles to make the rich richer, and everybody else can eat a dick.
In my experience, things are a bit similar in Austria, Europe. I had worked an internship in a software development company around 2016, and things were splendid. Everybody was in a good mood, and things seemed to move smoothly. One year later, in 2017, people were holding back a bit more.
I went there again in 2019, and it was okay. In 2020, the business closed.
I think the halt of economic growth is a global phenomenon. Throughout human history, there used to be three big waves of development:
- agricultural (farmers) - biochemical work
- industrial (machine operators and construction) - mechanical work
- information (IT) - electrical/information work
now, it seems to me, the economy is fully developed, and growth slows down. The only growth i foresee in the future will be the settlement of Mars (because mars can theoretically hold up to 1 billion people), and “cleaning up” on Earth (renewable energy).
I was with you up until the Mars bit 😄
We are reaching the limits of an “infinite growth” mindset. You can’t make money infinitely, which is why we are witness unprecedented amounts of shrinkflation, price gouging, and of course, enshitification. And housing prices.
The theory behind capitalism doesn’t require infinite growth. A society could have continual “profit” based on the use of renewable resources. The explanation for why we’re constantly expanding our exploitation of the planet is a little more complex than just an inherent trait of the economic system. That’s kind of a nasty oversimplification that people apply.
An old unattributed saying, “Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.” Often attributed to Kenneth Boulding but there’s no real sources for that.
The only infinite growth I could think of is just bitcoin and shit. Just dilute gambling.
That’s not infinite. Bitcoin is just one of many participants in the wider currency market. The bet of people speculating on Bitcoin is that its market share in the market will continue to grow. So the absolute upper limit of its valuation is basically that of the global currency market. In more practical/realistic terms, it has technical constraints as-is that limit its use as a day-to-day currency, which limit it to a lower point, since other currencies have to be used for small transactions, and hence, have to take some other portion of the global currency market. And so on.
Not exactly gambling. Rather, the market is trying to anticipate and calculate these shifts in valuation. Individual participants may try to catch it early to get a good deal. Many will fail, including buying at a bad deal. People will get caught up in hype because it’s a novel invention as opposed to some same-for-same replacement. That’s just the price determination mechanism. Currency shifts, and market adjustments in general, are messy. Any time one currency dies, there’s a flight to others.
Disclaimer: I have zero Bitcoin. Also this is just explaining mechanisms, not justifying or supporting them.
To quote a certain Ed Zitron:
The only thing that grows forever is cancer
The world was experiencing unprecedented economic growth for decades in the run up to the 2008 crash. Sure there were some rocky periods but the general trend was upwards and even in the 70s where there were problems with inflation new technologies were improving people’s living standards all the time.
Now we have growth stagnating; raw materials and international trade becoming more expensive (existing sources becoming depleted, tarrifs); then finally technological gains are happening but for consumers. I’m not sure I’ve seen a big improvement since the original iPhone.
The killer thing I haven’t mentioned yet is overcentralisation of economies in major cities/hubs. If you want the best possible job then you probably need to move to a megacity like London, Paris, New York, Sydney… but then a shortage of new housing in these places has pushed prices into the stratosphere. You better hope you have an economically active partner who has also landed their dream job in megacity! Oh and the inheritance required for a deposit on a flat.
Within countries that last problem can be tackled with better industrial strategies to some extent. Maybe grants and subsidies to open say biotech labs in more affordable parts of the country. In theory since we have increasingly become service based economies, or producers of e-goods like digital copies of videogames, this should also be possible by doubling down on remote jobs as a viable mode of working and possibly offering tax breaks/financial incentives to move to less populated areas. Here in Scotland if you want to be a primary/elementary school teacher on a remote island you can command a salary of ~2x what you would get on the mainland as part of a scheme to entice teachers to live in remote communities.
I think this happens in other countries too. It’s a result of neoliberalism:
- They cut spending on education, social security and publix infrastructure. That makes it harder for the youth to get started.
- They also cut taxes on the wealthy - meaning a lot of the wealth remains with older generations and especially the richest 5%.
- And finally, they pursue union busting, deregulation and globalization. By playing out the interests of workers in different countries (or different ethnicities in the same country) they’re making it harder to collectively bargain for good wages and good working conditions.
Now, I think the US is having it especially bad. In Germany they do regularly cut social security but we have public health insurance (though the rich get to opt out instead of paying their share) and overall a wealth distribution which is not good but also not quite as bad as the US. We also have a very different job market: Due to lack of highly educated workers, it’s easy to get a job and good conditions if you have a good education (which is basically free if you can afford to take the time). And they can’t fire you willy-nilly, this is hugely important for becoming financially stable and feeling safe.
Our main problem economically is the “Debt Brake” - a rule that limits government debt (and thus spending) without accounting for the required infrastructure investments. That doesn’t make any economic sense - anyone would loan money to make an investment if that facilitates economic growth!
In China this led to something they call ‘lying flat’, in Korea it’s called N-po generation.
Don’t forget the reason for lying flat: 9-9-6, aka your work schedule.
More complex than just that, don’t forget:
Massively competitive education-work culture, where everyone is regularly publically ranked against each other.
Sudden doubling of house prices over the last 15 years.
Schools and work places making perpetual crunch a thing and hiring in intrepid young go-getters to replace burn out.
Wages stagnating for first time since Deng Xiaoping’s economic reforms.
Go look at housing prices vs incomes in the USA, then do the same for Canada. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions on how people feel up here.
Would youcare to save everybody the trouble and spend a minute just tell us?
Housing is expensive in the USA. It’s even worse in Canada.
We have worse wealth inequality than the golden age
Take some of it with caution. Powerful forces are amplifying unhappiness.
Some things suck. No area is thriving. Dictators are taking power and there are several distressing wars.
Things have been worse and improved, but it us not a straight line.
Yeah the more I learn history the I feel we are in an imperfect but exceptionally opportune time.
Not being coy: can you help me understand the word choice of “opportune”?
I’ve recently become fascinated by history and the underpinned stories that really get to the answers to the WHY questions.
We can organize easier and for things we wouldn’t have even known were happening in the past. The Internet and our understand of how to interact with it is not very mature. That takes generational knowledge imo. Things are more chaotic and unprecedented than ever, and we at least have the opportunity to be more informed than at any other time in history. I think we can learn from the past and even if we fail we’ll hopefully have helped future generations by giving them a good case study.
Well put. It’s important to learn from history
Sweden. I’m sure some would disagree, but from my perspective, things here are more OK. Most people i know thats my age (35) with a degree (free tuition) earn more than their parents. Live in decent houses and can comfortably support family with 2 kids on like 1.5 salary.
Not as easy without an education, of course, but if you manage a stem degree, you will likely live a decent life.
When the USSR broke up you had Russian cab drivers in NYC with PhDs. I worked with a woman programmer who had a PhD in condensed matter physics from Moscow State U.
American PhD here.
I’ve m only half-joking when I say I’m considering driving a cab somewhere in South America.
Yeah I did the smart thing and walked away from research.
Total dead end, Industry don’t care at all.
Depends on the subject
You’re only joking because I’m sure you haven’t set foot in South America. US is getting there but it’s still heaps of levels above when it gets to thieving and shooting cab drivers specifically.
Unless you’re Chilean, in case you’re more North American than South American kkkk
I’m curious about the same things - which you won’t find in this thread. Apart from a couple people who actually tried to answer OP’s question it’s just typical blah-blah.
