She finds the whole idea absurd. To Prof Marci Shore, the notion that the Guardian, or anyone else, should want to interview her about the future of the US is ridiculous. She’s an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe and describes herself as a “Slavicist”, yet here she is, suddenly besieged by international journalists keen to ask about the country in which she insists she has no expertise: her own. “It’s kind of baffling,” she says.
In fact, the explanation is simple enough. Last month, Shore, together with her husband and fellow scholar of European history, Timothy Snyder, and the academic Jason Stanley, made news around the world when they announced that they were moving from Yale University in the US to the University of Toronto in Canada. It was not the move itself so much as their motive that garnered attention. As the headline of a short video op-ed the trio made for the New York Times put it, “We Study Fascism, and We’re Leaving the US”.
Starkly, Shore invoked the ultimate warning from history. “The lesson of 1933 is: you get out sooner rather than later.” She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake. “My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’ I thought, my God, we’re like people on the Titanic saying, ‘Our ship can’t sink. We’ve got the best ship. We’ve got the strongest ship. We’ve got the biggest ship.’ And what you know as a historian is that there is no such thing as a ship that can’t sink.”
fr got not one good 1%er down to make a progessive tech oriented country (by thay I mean not held back by religion, working for society and everyone inside’s benefit) ppl expect langauge models owned by the government to give us that lol
Albert Einstein left Germany too. However, I have heard it was more about money and the fucking Nazis were the number 2 reason.
Einstein was fucking Nazis?
Rule 34.
She did her part by educating us and it’s obvious she’ll be among the first to be targeted. It only makes sense that she should flee.
I, for one, am grateful that she spoke the truth in that NYT opinion piece.
Right? I don’t get people here mocking her for leaving. The first people to be removed or “disappeared” in fascists states are the bogeymen “others” - the foreigners, the ones that are easy targets and can’t fight back. The next ones are the obvious liberal dissenters. First the regular people, the scientists and liberal teachers, the students, then the liberal politicians. The smart people are always targeted.
I left, but am completely dependent on my US Social Security retirement, which I paid into my whole working life. What if the fascists shut it down? 72 year old homeless wandering the world?
I also left, absolutely no regrets. The US was holding me back and it was dangerous for me to live there. But I still tear up every time I think about the community I left behind
My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’
Er, no, America, you don’t have checks and balances. Not any more. Have you not been paying attention? That stuff is GONE.
Um, that’s exactly what she was saying.
Yes.
Most people have not been paying attention. Their knowledge of politics ends with what they remembered from school and the occasional AI-generated rage bait they see on social media.
As others have already commented, not everyone can just leave. Also, if we could all leave, who would take so many USA immigrants?
Honestly there’s enough place in places like Guyana and Suriname for you guys
Yeah, it’s not like Guyana and Suriname are countries with their own immigration laws, that their inhabitants expect to be enforced. They’re always ready to accept anyone from a western country that needs a spot to lay low for a couple of years. The same way the US always opened up and welcomed the Guyanese and Surinamese with open arms.
South America? Just do a full swap and leave them holding the bill.
not all south americans want to go into the US …
The perfect solution… it is not.
Not everyone has the option but those who do and are at risk and know they can’t bring upon any positive change by staying, should leave.
Yeah. My sister’s spouse is NB and they have significant means. I encourage them to leave with my nephew because I want them all safe.
I’m a white, male, Christian gun-owner. I can blend in for now and don’t have the same financial resources. I’m also single and childless, so I can also care for my parents who are blind to what’s happening.
I’m a white, male, Christian gun-owner. I can blend in for now
What. The. Fuck.
I won’t be targeted. It’s awful that it matters, but it does.
Indeed, I’m not saying what you are saying is wrong, precisely that you being right is scary.
When all the ones who are disgusted leave, you are left with only those who are disgusting. Not my words but somehow they apply again.
She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake.
I’d argue that it IS happening already
I have been telling people… Run. Now. If you can’t, make sure you are set up to run at a moment’s notice. Money, passport , whatever is needed
IN WW22 Germany the only ones who survived… Got out at the beginning
How does one flee the country when you live paycheck to paycheck and provide no skills that could be useful to a country’s economy? I’m decent with computers but that’s about it.
What country would even take me without me having to lower my already low standard of living? At the very minimum, I need a house with a yard + garage (I’m tired of condo/apartment living) and affordable gigabit internet. No legal weed is a deal breaker as well. Can’t eat or sleep without it.
At the very minimum, I need a house with a yard + garage (I’m tired of condo/apartment living) and affordable gigabit internet. No legal weed is a deal breaker as well. Can’t eat or sleep without it.
You’re discussing servival and all your examples of why you can’t leave are that it seems inconvenient to adjust. Either you’re not actually worried about the outcome of staying or your priorities are backwards.
Everyone has skills that can benefit a country, you just haven’t found yours yet I guess.
While it’s lovely to personally believe what you do, that isn’t the way those in charge of immigration tend to see it. Most countries prioritize immigrants with specific skillsets, while those not listed often have to figure out some other avenue to entry.
For example, here’s a list of Canada’s preferences - Federal Skilled Worker Program Eligible Occupations.
That is for immigration, not for asylum.
Your “low” standard of living is not low at all for most countries. So, yes, lowering that standard is necessary if you want to leave.
By “low” I mean that I don’t get any sort of government assistance, not even healthcare. I consider that a rather low standard of living.
Must be nice to be financially stable enough to run away.
All the ways to escape that didn’t require lots of money are all long gone
I think about this a lot. My mother’s side immigrated from Europe to the US five generations ago.
They were just teenagers who got on a boat. I don’t know what that cost, but they only had to sign in at ellis island. People back then didn’t even have to use their real name if they didnt want to, there was no court, or lawyers or anything. You just signed in at the door.
Today, is nothing like that.
I don’t know your story or your financial situation.
It is a sad reality that in the US there are literally millions who probably can’t leave even if it was life or death. But i feel like your comment directs your anger and pain towards those who are in at the very least a similar boat to you. Considering that she is an academic, I doubt she is rich, probably middle class at best. The billionaires stole from you, she is probably a victim of this system just like you.
She is lucky to be able to leave, but realistically she is probably just putting a much bigger weight on this issue than most and I would guess that she sees this as a life or death situation. I think that in a life or death situation, most people can afford to leave to Canada, this isn’t that crazy nor does it cost a fortune. It is true that not all people can, but I’m pretty sure that by far most can.
This.
There are very many shades of “I can’t leave”.
- I can’t leave because I would lose money/friends/job
- I can’t leave because I’d have to rebuild everything.
- I can’t leave because I can’t afford to bring all my stuff.
- I can’t leave because I physically don’t have the money for a plane ticket, a passport and the immigration process and I’d have to take out a loan
- I can’t leave because I don’t have the money for the plane ticket, a passport and the immigration process and I cannot take out a loan
Depending on how urgently you want to leave, some of these reasons are “can’t leave” or turn into “I’ll leave anyway”.
I could never leave until every other person I know that wanted to get out makes it out. I couldn’t live with myself knowing I was strong enough to help people that got stuck dealing with whatever bull shit scenario is coming down the line. I truly hope that people that know they can’t handle it do make it out safe because it is surely going to get crazier than any other time in recent history … at least that people in the west have had to deal with.
People are going to need their cars, houses and anything else they can keep alive up and running.
Just be prepared to not rat anyone out !
There’s also another category, “I can leave, but I don’t want to leave behind people important to me that would be at significantly more risk than I am.” I’ve got the work experience to head off to any of several fairly comfortable and stable countries on a skilled work visa, and hope that, if push comes to shove, none of my debts I currently have in the US would become obstacles to my permanently settling there. I can more or less fluently speak Spanish and Portuguese, and I can get by fine in French. Within a couple more years, I’ll have a degree from a European university completed, and I continue to study other languages, with varying degrees of success.
I’m still hanging around, waiting for my sister-in-law to finish up her degree in another two years so that the three of us could all get out at once, as, despite being a naturalized citizen for more than 20 years, I wouldn’t put it past ICE and the current administration to target her just for having darker skin and a slight accent to her English. I’d rather be here where I can watch out for her and raise hell ASAP if something were to happen, than be posted up in a new flat in France or something, and suddenly realize I can’t get in contact with her at all.
There’s also the simple fact that, for those who don’t have the means to legally obtain a visa, I’m unaware of any nation that has started accepting asylum cases from the US on the grounds of the current administration’s actions and policies. Yeah, I could walk to the border with Canada, or overstay on a tourist trip in Europe, but then you face the very real possibility of being caught and sent back, straight into the hands of the very people you are trying to escape, clearly marking yourself out as a dissident of some form. This is leaving aside all the issues you would face as an undocumented immigrant in a foreign nation. I sure don’t have the funds to just show up in Ireland or Portugal and be able to get myself somewhere to stay indefinitely, clothe and feed myself, even assuming I find work within the first few months. I don’t know anyone there that could help me land on my feet.
Getting out, and more importantly, being able to assure you can stay out, is not as simple a task as people who haven’t seriously looked into it might think.
The issue here is that if you stay for someone else, someone else will stay for you.
My family agreed that if something were to happen in our country (be it a war or something political like in the US right now), anyone who can will make it out as fast as possible and prepares the path for the others. Because it’s much easier toget a visum if you already have family there and a place to live.
And yes, you are right, nobody wants Americans in their country, but that’s just why it would be helpful to have someone prepare the way.
An academic who’s job is is to know these things is spending the money to do it. That’s the take away here. They’re the Canary in the Coal Mine.
yeah, you got the same vibe from the political professors that Jon Stewart had on his podcast last week. Just depressed and resigned.
How did you get financially trapped?
People in the rest of the western world and also mostly elsewhere in the entire world can actually travel.
What do you have to lose if you can’t walk away from where you are? You already lost your freedom and can no longer go anywhere else, because finances? In the richest country in the world?
If I ever find myself in that kind of serfdom without a dime in my pocket, I will put on my shoes and start walking.
This is such a boomer answer
It may shock you know that even in the richest country in the world there are homeless people. There are people who live paycheck to paycheck. There are many people who a single unexpected expense would ruin.
Well, no, because all those categories don’t count as people. Obviously.
Most people are just born into it
If I ever find myself in that kind of serfdom without a dime in my pocket, I will put on my shoes and start walking.
…Okay Denmark.
You can still walk away, it’ll be more difficult and take longer, but you can do it.
Tell that to the natives.
I know of people in Denmark who walked by foot from Syria during the last refugee exodus. They came to Denmark from Norway, because they crossed the border in the arctic between Russia to Norway.
Try to plot that route into your map and then go on complaining about strolling through a few states in USA.
You know national borders exist, right?
Sure, but what about them?
In most cases they’re just lines on a map that don’t actually exist physically in the real world.
Uh, why do you think those Syrians had to walk all the way to the Arctic to get to Europe when they were coming from Syria?
They wanted to admire the scenery of the bogs and pines?
Why didn’t they just take the direct route, because “they’re just lines on a map”?
Why did they more than double the over 4000km long journey to over 8000 km?
Oh, right, because of border control. They had to travel more than 4000 kilometres more to use less guarded crossings.
And good fucking luck crossing any Russo-European borders currently.
Yes, it’s true that borders are vast and not all controlled as easily. But nations sure as fuck try to.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland–Russia_border
That alone added a few thousand km for them, as they went all the way to Norway to cross, because we Finns actually guard the border pretty intensely due to that fucker Vanja disrespecting it so.
Of course that’s the reason. I never claimed otherwise.
So we do agree that people with no money are capable of walking 4000 kilometers. Yet, it is somehow impossible for people in America to walk 500 kilometers, because “America is just too big” and “being financially trapped”.
Tell that the the sovereign nations you’d be illegally entering
“What are walls, just some man made obstacles, I live in your house now”
That’s what refugees do. And they’re allowed to. Persecution as it is happening in America right now is an international crime. If you’re the victim of persecution you can get eefug status.
Lol. You’re getting replies from people so complacent with their lifestyles that they can’t fathom the effort of just walking away from everything and starting up elsewhere. Literally millions of people have walked across continents in the last decade to live in places with better opportunities, but these people’ll find any excuse to say that that’s not possible for whatever reason, but really just because it’s a type of change they are unwilling (not unable) to make and they want to make themselves feel better by saying/believing all that isn’t a real option for them.
Yes, I got an unexpected amount of emotional replies. The whole thread is very interesting that way.
It seems like lots of people are extremely complacent.
I doubt those people would be doing all that walking if they had any better option. It’s easy to leave when there’s nothing to leave
I’d do it, I’ve no qualms walking, it would take a couple weeks, but I don’t fucking care about that push come to shove, it’s the only plan I have, go North, doing exactly what you mention,
I don’t because Im very certain Canada would not let me live there. No money, no post education, no real skills outside of … manufacturing and taking care of my disabled kid. I don’t have a pasport. Did the folks who left Syria and walked to Denmark, as it was stated, did they have passports? Were they all on the skilled worker list? I’m pretty certain they were classed as refugees, Americas are not classed as refugees. We’d be turned away.
I can’t even move town and I’d like to. I can’t move to a new state and I would if I could. How tf would I show up at the Canadian border today with just a backpack like, heyyyy Get real.
Most of the people entering European countries and seeking refugee status don’t come from conflict zones, just poor areas. Like Pakistanis, Iraqis, Ghanans, Malians, Indians, Nigerians, etc. They just show up, cross illegally avoiding border guards, and either live as illegal immigrants until caught or immediately request refugee status upon reaching their country of choice, such as Germany or Sweden (and upon denial most just stay anyways). This is an option millions have taken. Same with all the Central and South Americans crossing the US border (and Chinese, Caribbeans, etc. that cross that border despite not having geographic proximity).
But this option isn’t the only option. Loads of legal immigrants just sell all they have and gamble on some different country. Some request a student visa someplace (say Canada or Australia) to get their foot in the door, then take advantage of being in the country to seek a job. Some put all their money into creating a small business to seek a visa via that route (many of the poor Chinese you see in European countries try that approach). Fact of the matter is, anyone with a paid roof over their head in the US is among the wealthiest people of the world in terms of income, so hearing them complain is sorta rich. Say you live with your spouse and each make 15k USD per annum but have no property, saving, or investments. First off, you’d be around the halfway mark for the US anyways, but on the world stage you’d also be the top 15%. Do you have an iPhone, a car, a television and enough food security to be overweight? Congratulations, the large, large majority of the world does not have those. Basically, people living in relative (worldwide) security/comfort complaining about the hardships of leaving their safety if they wanted to change their lives is something most of the rest of the world would scoff at (or more). Despite not living in relative privilege for US standards, the majority of the US does in fact live comfortable lives from an international standpoint.
Well, you’re doing a great job at making it sound simple, and anyone who thinks they can’t move, feel stupid.
I could walk to Canada, but would they let me in? No passport? No degree? As far as I know, Canada isn’t taking US refugees just yet.
Most people who run from their country are all but financially stable.
And I was called a fascist bootlicker when I suggested that when people with guns tells you to leave the area, you comply…
…and then you make plans.
Why would she flee to Canada? If she knows what happened in 1930s Germany then she knows what happened to their neighbours a few years later, right?
Suppose she can keep running
Cries in Canadian lol
I wish everyone who posted youtube links would say what they were linking to.
I don’t blame people for running, but personally I’ve always found that Fighting Fascism is a Fine Hill to Die On.
Suits me fine too.
To be honest, I’d be perfectly willing to die on much smaller, less impactful hills. Some days I feel like dying in a valley, far away from anything, but then I see some real bullshit going on and get mightily pissed off.
What I’m saying is, dying isn’t the worst thing you can do in life.
"I’m affluent with the privilege & means to escape when I know it’s going to go bad &, trust me, it’s going to get bad.
Anyways, good luck, suckers!"
This, exactly. And running to Canada. Like fleeing the coming Nazi Germany by emigrating to Poland. Congratulations, you accomplished almost nothing.
Almost nothing? Canada might be sliding itself but I’m pretty sure it’s still way safer than the US
I think the Poland reference was insinuating that the US might invade Canada.
Yeah, I get that, but being jewish in nazi germany was safer than being jewish in poland until the invasion. Which we don’t have a crystal ball to predict would happen to canada. Seems unlikely.
She’s using her position to educate, raise awareness, and validate the alarm several people are feeling. This is possibly the most impactful thing she can do at the moment. She is standing up and pointing out fascism. I guess she could stay after having done that, but then you get people going “if it’s so bad then why don’t you leave?!” And then she’s at even more risk of being disappeared. She is uprooting her family and life and in the process displaying how sincerely she believes that we’re headed down the wrong path. Is she doing it for her own benefit, yea, sure, but this article imho is more impactful than her going to a protest. I’ve sent it to some of my more normie friends already because we were just talking about this and they really don’t realize how bad things are already. They think I’m fear mongering. This article might help people realize what the reality is and take direct action that they didn’t think was necessary at this point. Is it cowardly to leave? Maybe. But she didn’t have to speak out, she could have left quietly, but she chose to make a statement. That’s more than a lot of people will end up doing, regardless of if they stay or not.
Why would you want to do something useful or productive when you could be making sarcastic posts on social media instead?
