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This is like an episode of House.
House: “I roll for perception”
Wilson: “You rolled a 1”
House: “It’s Lupus”
This thread has helped my understanding why new players I meet to are so intimidated by the game. It seems many people favor strict rule following over just having a good time.
A 20 does not mean the spell achieves something out of its capabilities, what is this five year olds playing DnD?
Honestly, as a DM, when this doesn’t infringe on other player’s fun like here I don’t mind doing extraordinary stuff for the Nat 20
I have had players make persuasion checks against me before when they want to do something that’s explicitly outside the rules but I think it would be cool. Depending on how cool I think it would be, the DC can be anywhere from 10 to 20, and the player doesn’t have proficiency
That’s another good idea ! I want to create an environment that incentivizes player creativity soo this could be fun :)
Taking away someone’s intentional, roleplayed disability definitely falls under “infringing on someone’s fun”, though. If the player (not just the character) is also disabled and trying to represent themselves in the game, this goes beyond infringing on fun straight into lowkey offensive. I would never let this nat 20 work. Maybe it fixes the wheelchair or something.
Main issue is the wheelchair itself. No adventurer would ever use a wheelchair, the only reason we can use wheelchairs now are uniform roads and ada mandated ramps. Magic carpets exist and are cheap in game and don’t make you a liability.
How do you know he doesn’t put it on a floating disk?
Then it is no longer a wheelchair, it’s a magical floating chair which is acceptable.
The wheels don’t just vanish lol
I mean, have you considered a dwarven wheelchair made from the shields of the fallen, using their frames for wheels that grant comparable protection while gaining grip compared with a wooden spoke?
Or a druidic wheelchair of entire roots that bonded to the druid when they were mortally wounded on the forest, bonding them permanently?
Or a warlock who walks with an artificial leg of miasma and lurching tentacles that his patron restored him to in exchange for his soul debt?
Literally no reason and no way a wheelchair in game is more a liability than some geriatric old fucking wozard breaking his hip or your characters having a concussion and needing an EMT.
I find it odd that there is tons of room to make a wheel chair work in the game but not the spell.
It’s a shared adventure, I’d let lots of things fly for the sake of fun and interest.
If I cast “Greater Restoration” and say I’m going to cure your of your Warlock pact, and roll a nat 20, and you are vehemently against this, it’s not “for the sake of fun” if I go ahead and “cure” you of your chosen character traits and path.
I hear you, and I’m not rigid in spell use within reason, but this is well outside just RAW and more into the latter part of everyone having fun at the table. Your fun shouldn’t come at the expense of another player having to give up agency over their character, which are personal avatars people can sometimes be quite attached to.
If you’re in a table where characters are dying left and right maybe they aren’t. But even then, if they don’t want it, that’s the red line. Just like using Mind Control on a party member to do something unspeakable. RAW could they? Sure. But unless this is a game built on betrayals or where players are expecting a PvP element, absolutely not. Because the IRL consequences of this and the real anger a player at the table may feel trump mechanics.
Everything in moderation, everything on balance. Player agency is something you should try not to let other players trample on. And even as a DM, it should be subtle or not at all when you are moving the scenery to guide something. Again, subjective.
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Though better than the alternative it would still be terrible on any uphill.
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Roots bonding to the lower body would not form a wheelchair, more like darth maul spider legs.
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That’s a leg, not a wheelchair.
In every scenario, using any magic would circumvent the disability in a way that ends up mimicking walking while not being a liability.
Yes.
That is wheelchairs and prosthetics do my friend.
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Why do people think this? Like, I’m not mad at you, just amazed at how common this belief is.
Wheelchairs were around, and in use on surfaces that were abysmal in comparison to modern ones, but they worked.
Whether or not an adventurer would use one is a different issue, but folks really don’t know shit about wheelchairs it seems.
I’m not saying it would be fun, or easy, but I’ve been out in the woods on paths barely wide enough to fit a chair, and had people, my patients, push themselves the entire way, lumps, ruts, rocks, roots and all. And rubber tires aren’t magic for that. They help, but they don’t make the impossible possible, just the edge cases easier.
Because this is a FANTASY WORLD with MAGIC and BETTER ALTERNATIVES.
Quoting you
… the only reason we can use wheelchairs now are uniform roads and ada mandated ramps.
That is not about the fantasy world, unless ada means All Drow Associated or something, though why drow would mandate ramps, I have no idea. Maybe because spiders don’t like steps?
So your fantasy world has asphalt roads and uniform sidewalks and paved connections between every village? If your 99.9% of dnd games you are playing in the mideaval era world with magic. So just use the fucking magic items.
If I’m DM I’d say they cast the spell exceptionally well and… it does nothing. They can do something very well that doesn’t do anything special.
I believe they were saying that this is a situation where it does infringe on other player’s fun
nor can you make another player do something they don’t want
What gave you that idea? Games make other players do stuff they don’t want all the time.
the GM can make players do things they don’t want, if players disagree it is at best a contested check but in almost all cases the controlling player controls their own character
Yes, but in table top unless you signed up for a PvP game, other players don’t get to dictate how your character is. And even the DM shouldn’t railroad.
The rules and scenarios do that all the time lol
D&D is ultimately a set of rules to guide a group improv storytelling session. One of the first rules of improv is “yes and” so you go with it within the confines of the game rules as well as what people are comfortable with. This is where /u/[email protected]’s suggestion of “Ranlar slowly rises from his wheelchair before collapsing under his own weight as his atrophied legs give out. Your party must now find a way to move him away from the orcs without using his newly healed legs, perhaps on a nearby chair with wheels.” Fits so well. It "yes and"s the spell while remaining true to the other player’s wishes.
The DMs job is to maintain the fun for the players, and if one player is ruining others fun they need to be spoken with and kicked out if they aren’t able to be a team player. Personally, I treat a NAT20 (and critical failures) as an opportunity to do something comical that helps advance the story and improve the lore, because that creates the moments you tell to others when sharing fun stories about D&D
Bad DM.
Nat 20 doesn’t just let you do whatever. Cure wounds could easily be interpreted as returning the body to its natural state as the soul percieves it. If wanted his legs back more than anything so much that his soul held onto it like phantom pain, then I would say maybe a Greater Restoration could if he wanted that.
But if he’d grown accoustomed to his new life and his new legs and no longer sought to “restore” anything, having made peace with his injury, then no, greater restoration would just restore him to his own healthy self image. And a spell like cure wounds would do absolute dick.
I’d love to let this play out, narrate the lack of effect of this spell, and kick this asshole from the table.
I am unsure from what this is from, but I once read a story in which a form of healing magic exists. One requirement for it to work was that the person being healed needs to be OK with it. If someone tried to cure your paralyzed legs and you don’t want them to be “fixed” as you don’t view as an issue or being paralyzed is just part of how you are, then the magic can’t work on you.
There’s a book I read that takes place in Faerun where a cleric is getting tortured by ogre clerics by having his limbs broken and then they use heal spells to heal his limbs at odd angles. After he’s freed, they break his limbs again, heal them in braces, but he had a permanent limp
DnD healing can only do so much before its just some high power reality changing magic.
Exactly. If that adventurer wanted to “cure” what he saw as a flaw, he could quest for a much more specialized magical healer or more powerful spell to enable it. I mention greater restoration, but true polymorph to his original form, or some kind of time manipulation, etc. There are options, at a high enough toer of magic, to undo injury, but that power has to have been attained.
This is why amputations aren’t cured by a cure wounds. You can’t just grow a pile of pork by hacking into a live pig and repeatedly healing it.
So does that not imply that…
HP Restoratives are gender affirming care?
That happens in the stormlight archive books, which handle magical healing exactly that way.
Interesting question. I suppose it would in the version I laid out. And why not. Hahahah.
Honestly could make for an extremely compelling character arc to explore, but may hit close to home for some players
narrate the lack of effect of this spell, and kick this asshole from the table.
You had me in the first half. First 95%
My read of simple HP restoring magical healing, at least in D&D, is simply that it is equivalent to accelerated natural healing with no potential for complications. So if whatever ailment you’re trying to heal wouldn’t also be healed by any arbitrary amount of rest and recuperation then Cure Wounds won’t cut it either.
Cure wounds could easily be interpreted as
It could far easier be interpreted as healing what the caster or their god perceives to be a wound, since IT’S THEM THAT DOES THE DAMN CURING.
I get inclusion, I really do. And if you wanna go there, the guy playing the cleric is a prick if he’s doing this to a disabled guy’s character. But you’re not escaping this with logic, because disabled guy is also a prick.
You’re in a universe of immortal gods, magic, amazing tech and telling stories. Don’t you dare pretend there’s any ailment that can’t be healed by some random cleric of Waukeen or Kol Korran, both being deities of wealth that would approve of their priests being basically traveling salesmen, exchanging healing for money. You can cure anything for the right amount of gold, and let’s not all act like we wouldn’t want our walking/eyesight/hearing/whatever restored, and actively work to pay for one of these services.
Some of the traits we want to give our characters just don’t translate into this magical world, and there’s no ruling where a DM can still have it make sense if the cleric is in character when doing this. What you want to ask yourself before you get to this situation is, would this guy have seriously been crippled all his life and was never able to raise the few hundred gold for a healing spell? And would an adventuring party even want him on?
This should’ve been nixed at session 0 if not all players agree that this setting allows for incurable disabilities/diseases. Cause I for sure don’t want a cleric in my party that “isn’t allowed” to remove curses or heal. Oh, he’s wheelchair-bound? The party exits the pub, you are unable to catch up to them as there are some stairs in the way. This is life without wheelchair ramps, better get used to some boring sessions ahead. Unless you wanna explore a dungeon and see if falling down stairs while stuck in a chair is gonna be easy to survive for your lvl1 wizard.
It could far easier be interpreted as healing what the caster or their god perceives to be a wound, since IT’S THEM THAT DOES THE DAMN CURING.
If the caster doesnt know how Tieflings are naturally supposed to look, are they going to then heal them of their “deformities” and remove their horns? I’d very much argue the caster’s intent is irrelevent. And as others have noted, there is lore of how cure wores operates to accelerate natural healing, not just reality warp into a perfect body. Splint a break and heal it, done. Cure wounds on a fresh cut, done. Cure wounds on a 10 year old scar? Thats not a wound. No effect. Otherwise no one in DnD would have any scars, even cool ones.
because disabled guy is also a prick.
You are searching hard for reasons to argue against this. Just wanting to be how you are is not being a prick.
You’re in a universe of immortal gods, magic, amazing tech and telling stories. Don’t you dare pretend there’s any ailment that can’t be healed by some random cleric of Waukeen or Kol Korran, both being deities of wealth that would approve of their priests being basically traveling salesmen, exchanging healing for money. You can cure anything for the right amount of gold, and let’s not all act like we wouldn’t want our walking/eyesight/hearing/whatever restored, and actively work to pay for one of these services.
By this logic, no character in DnD should ever have scars, or exist with anything but a pristine body. And yet, some of the most famous characters out there have scars and missing fingers. How odd.
Some of the traits we want to give our characters just don’t translate into this magical world, and there’s no ruling where a DM can still have it make sense if the cleric is in character when doing this. What you want to ask yourself before you get to this situation is, would this guy have seriously been crippled all his life and was never able to raise the few hundred gold for a healing spell?
Usually no. A few hundred gold in most settings is actually quite a large amount for a non-adventurer.
And would an adventuring party even want him on?
Because the disabled are without worth if they inconvenience the party even slightly? Nevermind that all your ranting aboht how magic could affect the body could much more cheaply and immediately apply to objects like a wheelchair, and thus make sense for them to have worked around their disability than to have afforded some of the most expensive healing that exists to treat it.
This should’ve been nixed at session 0 if not all players agree that this setting allows for incurable disabilities/diseases.
Yea I don’t think that most see “curing my disabled friend by force” as something that session 0 would even need to touch on. Most of these spells have “willing creature” as an assumed condition.
Cause I for sure don’t want a cleric in my party that “isn’t allowed” to remove curses or heal. Oh, he’s wheelchair-bound? The party exits the pub, you are unable to catch up to them as there are some stairs in the way. This is life without wheelchair ramps, better get used to some boring sessions ahead. Unless you wanna explore a dungeon and see if falling down stairs while stuck in a chair is gonna be easy to survive for your lvl1 wizard.
This whole paragraph again is some hateful ableist shit with 0 imagination. I’m not even going to bother listing the dozens of simple creative solutions to “omg stairs!” that escape you, and simply point out that, again, cure wounds is a low level healing spell not even a greater restoration. And long-term scars and illnesses canonically exist in DnD. So get over yourself. If the player doesnt want “cure my legs” to be their whole fucking quest, then let them have their magical wheelchair with equivalent mobility and move the fuck on.
Jesus its not even hard. “The wheels of my contraption have a minor strength buff so i can push it easily, and some years later a kind enchanter cast a permanent low grade spider climb on the wheels so i can go up stairs and uneven terrain fairly easily now. It’s not strong enough to climb walls, unfortunately. But I appreciated it immensely all the same. I get around as well as most now, I suppose. Still can’t see over countertops all the time though.”
I refused the heal because I heard it causes autism.
Yes, Int is my dump stat, why do you ask?
I will never understand these people. Like, even if vaccines did cause autism… do you really find us that offensive?
Hehe, indeed. Although they moved onto “vaccines put microchips in you to let Bill Gates control you” so who knows. (Side note, autistic people are chill, significantly less likely to ruin my night with bullshit, lol)
No no no, you got it all wrong The vaccines put microchips in you so that Bill Gates can activate COVID in you. But it works only when you’re within 5G radio range
This is the kind of petty squabbling that makes dnd for me 🤌
“The social model of disability states-”
“PELOR SAYS RUN, BITCH, THERE’S A MONSTERS”
Alright, you cast heal wounds. Any wounds on the legs are healed. You are now aware that paralysis from birth is not a “wound”
Yeah that’s more regenerate or maybe power word heals territory.
Even with regenerate, what exactly are you regenerating? If the necessary neural pathways for the legs to work never developed in the first place, they couldn’t be “regenerated”. If this was your goal I think you might need to true polymorph a guy into “the same guy but his legs work”
“You touch a creature and stimulate its natural healing ability.”
If stem cells could solve the issue, it’s possible. Turn it into a surgery, high DC medicine check, or an insane arcana check and a DM would probably let it play.
I don’t think logic applies to healing magic in DnD lol.
Is logic not the role of the DM?
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You couldn’t “restore” something to a state it’s never been in. Cutting off the legs and then casting regenerate would “regenerate” the lost pair of paralyzed legs.
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“Your nerves are forged anew, and your legs are as strong as a marathon runner’s. Unfortunately you never learned to walk, much less run. Good luck.”
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Simulacra and Clone, or Greater Restoration should be able to achieve the desired effect, provided a competent heal check.
It’s explicitly within the capabilities of a Lesser Restoration, but also I would not allow a player to cast that spell on another player if that other player didn’t want it
Edit: also as another person said, the adult who has never used their legs before never learned how to walk, so even if they had functioning legs, it would not help
I enjoy that Godbound doesn’t even bother with any of the hairsplitting I’m reading in this thread. You’re a god of freaking Health, of course you can fix his legs. No dice rolling involved.
That is one big advantage of being divine, yes.
Even then, curses can complicate matters, and a pantheon without an applicable power will need to endeavor to make a change.
A Greater Foe could argue for a saving throw, especially if it’s against their will. A Gift might not even be enough if the deformity affects their divine soul, which sounds like a good quest hook.
Now you’re talking! That’s the kind of stuff I can work with right there. We can spin an adventure out of this. This is fun! Rules lawyering and ooc arguing are not fun.
it’s a fucking magic setting if anything the wheelchair should be faster than running
Wheelchairs only work because of modern paving and asphalt. Cobblestone and dirt roads would never accommodate a wheelchair. Magic carpets are right there.
Legit, it would depend on the chair.
Assuming no rubber or equivalent, the ride would be bumpy as hell, but doable on a well packed road, or relatively well laid stone. I’ve pushed patients over both surfaces, and seen plenty of patients do it themselves.
Gravel is the real pain in the ass. You get a fresh gravel path, and good luck with most wheelchairs that aren’t powered and/or have narrow wheels. Way more effort.
On something like cobblestones, you might even have an easier time moving yourself without rubber tires.
For short distances, even a poorly packed but dry dirt path isn’t bad.
Remember, wheelchairs annually predate asphalt by a good bit, and existed before sidewalks and such were evenly paved. Some of the older examples from the Victorian era were used on city streets that were unpaved entirely, and impassable when wet, but managed to work over the dried ruts.
Same with unpaved dirt paths that would be poorly maintained. I’ve had patients in chairs push themselves down paths in the woods while hunting, with things growing in the path, rocks not fully cleared, etc. That’s modern chairs, but the fundamental design is more robust regarding surfaces than you’d think
But why would anyone do any of this when there are objectively better options for representing the disability and having a fun whimsical option. Magic carpet or magic chair and now you can fly where bring a different set of skills. As a Druid, Growths of trees and roots could form spider like appendages. A warlock can use his patrons power to create a new set of magical legs or always be floating. Warforged legs could be used in place of your own. An artificers leg armor would be able to keep cripples person walking. Many many options and you choose the blue shirt basic human fighter battlemaster.
All of which has nothing to do with how wheelchairs work in the real world, which is the part I was responding to.
Exactly! You’re in the magic setting where most people can do magic or have access to magical things. Wheelchairs become even more useless than they were in ancient times, especially for an adventurer who presumably will be on unpaved and akward roads.
You’re a moron.
You’re trying to fit something that has no place being in the setting. Just pick the infinitely cooler options that do fit or don’t have your character have this particular disability.
Tenser’s floating wheelchair
Just be a magic carpet at that point. Or a flying chair.
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Its an off road all terrain chair with enchanted wheels.
At that point just enchant your legs, or make warforged legs, or be a druid and attach roots to your legs like spider legs, or use the same thing but also provides other utility, A MAGIC CARPET.
I think the Heal spell would actual do this. Wish absolutely would.
Everyone’s correctly pointing out how healing doesn’t with that way, how about changing someone’s body against their will being totally evil and not good?
Everyone’s correctly pointing out how healing doesn’t with that way
Keep in mind that they never specified the game system
It would depend on the god. A god of strength or perfection would see anything that makes you stronger as a good thing.
I have a character idea for a cleric that idolizes the god of pain.
They focus almost entirely on healing because you can’t keep suffering if you’re dead, if you’re alive you can grow stronger, and therefore, in their own twisted mind, if you’re suffering you’re growing stronger.
They don’t heal people right away unless not doing so would cause them to die and end their suffering. Instead, if the battle is over, they pull out a chart and start asking about how painful the wound is. This can be excruciating for the one who has to sit there and answer questions until they get healed.
The other portion of their build would focus on fighting the undead because they are abominations who cannot feel pain and cannot grow stronger because of it
The god goes along with it because their normal clerics may be into torture, which is great for pain, but they tend to get hunted down because of their extreme methods. This cleric causes pain indirectly by being surrounded by a bunch of murderhobos.
Fits pretty well for a grave cleric. They perform best when healing from the brink of death. Spare the dying becomes more like study the dying lol
“Fixers” are fucking annoying in any roleplay experience, I don’t know what drives them to it but they never seem to get that it’s not like, it’s not like actually being crippled.
Yeah, if someone at the table wants certain attributes for their character, the DM should not allow others to mess with that without very good reason. This guy being a dick about it? He can find another table.
I once ran a campaign based on Fred Saberhagen’s books of swords. I’m the books there are twelve swords that would be considered greater artifacts. One of my players was playing a pacifist. He picked up the sword called Townsaver while his village was being invaded. Anyone who has read the books knows this same situation happens right at the beginning of the series. The sword takes over, because it’s power is to force anyone who holds it to protect unarmed innocents. He proceeded to slaughter the invading force. He was devastated.
Holy shit, that sparked a memory. I read some of them back in the early nineties.
It’s worth reading the whole series of you’re interested. They aren’t awesome, but they are fairly quick reads, and the way he resolves the story is interesting.
That spell doesn’t require a d20. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Going beyond the spell usecase might call for a d20 tho
Player: “I do something to Eric’s character against his will.”
A good DM: “No, you don’t.”
End of discussion.
Eric just needed a better backstory for his wheelchair-bound character. And really in most high fantasy settings the only way it makes sense to have a permanent disability like that would be from a curse.
You’re assuming there are enough >2nd level casters around to cast Lesser Restoration (or whatever the equivalent is in your campaign). As far as I’m concerned, magic should be extraordinarily rare. Does every preacher get cleric powers? Does everyone with draconic ancestry get sorcerer powers? Can anyone with an instrument kill a commoner with an insult?
In my campaigns, very few NPCs are even 1st level in a class. Maybe one in every 20 villages has a 1st level cleric in their church. It takes a 130 IQ to even start learning to be a wizard. Basically everyone can trace some line back to a dragon in their family tree, but maybe 0.001% ever get strong enough powers to even cast a Light cantrip
The levels in D&D represent adventuring levels, so your average person wouldn’t have any adventuring abilities unless they’ve done something to earn experience. And magic will be as rare as the deities in your setting want it to be since they can basically just give magic to anyone. Hell, some powerful beings even grant magic and powers to their subjects against their wills.
In Pathfinder, magic is common enough that either your village or the next will have a healer capable of that powerful of a heal spell. The only catch is that the casting costs about a year’s worth of wages for a peasant
Where do the casting costs come from? Are they reagents for the spell?
If you’re good at something, never do it for free.
Someone that’s good at voice acting still gets paid for their time and expertise, even if no physical resources were spent doing their work
Your words are poorly chosen. This is a very low effort response.
First of all its just inaccurate. Many heros in many fantasy settings have some kind of limitation/disability
Not usually MC but sometimes even MC
First of all its just inaccurate. Many heros in many fantasy settings have some kind of limitation/disability
Name 3
So you couldn’t list any off the top of your head and had to rely on a list made by someone else. You’re really just proving my point here
- I wasn’t the person you asked to name 3.
- Heaven forbid I contribute to the conversation by providing a relevant list to a discussion.
You go do the work, and enjoy some books while you do it.
Go read a few ravenloft, forgotten realms, dragonlance, or other dnd series
Go read some raymond e feist riftwar/magician books.
Go read a dozen palladium Rifts worldbooks
Just read any large fantasy franchise and you find any number of disabled characters
Damn near every healing spell in a fantasy ttrp will have a ruling on not being able to heal natural conditions such as blindness or simply that it straight up wont restore lost limbs
Im sure catti bri and drizzt ran into a few pirates and sailors with missing limbs
Or are you going to tell me theres no peg legs in fantasy?
No old heroes who cant fight anymore because they lost a limb
Ita inaccurate because most fantasy worlds that ive read dont have mid to high level healers in every square km of their worlds
Trying to think of some in dragonlance. Nope. None. Unless you count one page wonders that don’t even matter.
You go do the work, and enjoy some books while you do it.
You clearly don’t understand how things work.
You made the claim. Therefore you have to provide sources to back up your claim
Only if i care to convince you, i dont
So fucking true. There are so many insufferable people on the internet that view any form of communication as a formal debate.
Toph from avatar: eyes
Conan the Barbarians from Discworld: teeth
Gimli from Lord of the Rings: height
Cohen the barbarian. And he gets by just fine eating his schoup before he gets dentures made from diamond.
