I’m going to go out on a pretty long limb here and suggest the possibly that they’re not actually undecided at all.
I’ve read (not sure how true) that it’s not necessarily undecided between Harris and Trump - more undecided about even showing up to vote.
I honestly don’t know what’s worse.
Each is worse than the other.
My Mexican immigrant coworker believes that if Kamala gets elected that immigrants will be deported but also immigrants are getting too much free money and food stamps and things like that. He really has bought into some kind of weird belief that Donald Trump is a better candidate. He can’t vote because he’s not a citizen. I think he’s just pissed off because he works two jobs and sees people who get free stuff and don’t come here legally as lazy.
The electoral college picks the president. Not you. You’re a “migrant” labeled “citizen”. You can influence the election if you happen to walk by an actual elector and get a chance to talk to him… Tell him about your student loans, your fear of putin, the homeless, you two jobs just to pay the mortgage, etc. they’ll understand and vote the way you would vote if you were an actual elector… don’t you worry migrant!
Yey! Democracy!
Trying to combine immigrants in your first sentence is so disingenuous. Here’s what makes it clear:
Legal Immigrants are different than illegal immigrants. Of course your coworker is pissed off that he’s come here legally and is not getting rewarded for it. Whether the ones who come illegally are lazy or not doesn’t make a difference. They shouldn’t be given anything we currently give them. We have veterans dying in the streets getting nothing. Everyone should be mad about it.
What you’re saying is not precisely true. To register for food stamps, well, you need to be registered. Likewise for other forms of welfare.
Illegal immigrants are not coming to this country and living off of welfare. That is not happening.
But even if it was, are you seriously going to tell me that the solution to that is to kick those immigrants out? To round them up in camps? That’s not going to help homeless veterans.
People like you will either believe in stupid arguments or talk in bad faith, and then not actually support welfare or UBI at all.
Illegal immigrants aren’t getting money and services through our usual welfare program, but nice try implying that’s what we’re claiming.
And yes, kick out the ones here illegally. Not sure where you’re getting camps from, just move them out. Then we need to redirect sources to Americans that need it and we need to make sure those are being spent properly and not disappearing into bureaucratic pockets.
You do realize how just morally corrupt and insane that logic is right? We spend trillions as a country, you’re upset that immigrants might get something when our veterans program is still lacking. You are fighting over crumbs and upset at other crumb eaters instead of the elite being the ones only giving out crumbs. There are valid arguments and suggested tactics to help BOOST the economy with programs that can help veterans, immigrants, and includes social safety nets for all people. The distraction that “They’re Stealing Your Crumbs!tm” helps stop any progress and keeps the boogeyman so voters can be scared into submission.
We need immigrants to help a flailing economy thanks to the baby boomer population (immigrants help us economically!, it’s a statistical fact!). Immigrants also have lower crime rates than typical groups of people born here. Housing the homeless is cheaper than arresting them, ER visits (because no preemptive healthcare) are most expensive, ETC ETC. All the fear mongering is just lies, don’t believe the hatred and look into it yourself so you’re not spreading misinformation.
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate
https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-does-immigration-affect-us-economy
https://www.globalgiving.org/learn/how-much-would-it-cost-to-end-homelessness-in-america/
I just love how the political discourse went from “should we have healthcare for all? (circa 2016)”, to “they took our jobs! (circa southpark 2004)”.
Very well put
It takes resources to “round them up and kick them out.” Resources that could instead be spent on the Americans that need it.
Out of the only two options on the ballot that have any chance of winning, which side shits on the veterans dying in the streets and which side tries to help them?
Apparently you’re a nazi if you vote for either, so you should just not vote
- totally not an astroturfer
You not only need to vote for the candidate of their choice, you also need to match whatever they pick. Yey! Democracy!
Enter to win!
Prices included: " new president!"
Rules:
-Pick whoever you want
-If the electoral college picks the person you picked, then congratulations! You picked the winner 🏆🏆🏆🏆!
-if the electoral college picks someone else, then congratulations! You got a different president than the one you picked because your vote is worthless!
Yey! Democracy!
But do go vote, this is just a sarcastic comment about the stupid way we pick…the electoral college picks presidents for us like kings. The rest of the ballot is full of things that you do actually vote for, like local representatives, education leaders, district judges etc. Only the presidential election is not actually your thing. The rest of it is probably more important anyway so who cares if the electoral college picks Mexico’s president to be our president. They could pick Kim Jung Un, but our president is usually a lame duck anyway the entire time due to the Republican party cock blocking their every move…like your student loans! Remember those? The fucking republican party block all attempts so far. But again, don’t worry about it, it’s not our thing. Let’s let the electoral college to worry about it.
The rest of the ballot is full of things […] like local representatives, education leaders, district judges etc.
Maybe OT, but I’ve been watching a lot of voting advice on twitter, reddit, etc this year, and whenever someone mentions how important it is to get educated about your local options on the ballot, they get a flood of comments accusing them of encouraging people to abstain from voting or to vote 3rd party. It appears to be one limb of an aggressive anti-vote apathy or disinfo campaign.
Not sure if it’s OT, but we definitely forget that the ballot affects you more personally within the other non presidential elections. Like the president, ultimately is just a guy. He’s not gonna come here locally and fix my potholes. It’s the local guy who does that shit. That’s the election we should be really keen on. And then sure, let’s build some more raptors and finish North Korea indirectly somehow before they do something stupid.
That’s not at all how the EC works.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College#Selection_process
I get that we might have different opinions. But if you told me right now that you will vote as I want you to vote as my representative I would have a very realistically hard time believing you. You should probably never meet me in person and state that anywhere nearby and expect me not to laugh my ass off at you.
It’s not a matter of opinion. You’re misrepresenting how the EC works.
It isn’t a good system, but it’s also nothing like you characterized it.
Slates of electors are chosen to represent parties by the parties themselves, often in party conventions or primaries, and typically from a pool of people who are incredibly loyal to the party. That is even more true of smaller parties, as they tend to be more invested in their particular beliefs than the major parties.
Faithless electors are, so far, practically a non-factor in modern elections in the US. There are mechanisms in place in most cases that either invalidate their vote or outright remove and replace them. I can only cite one time in history that there was a significant impact, when the Virginia electors withheld their votes for Van Buren’s VP Richard M. Johnson. He had to be elected by the Senate due to the 23 withheld votes keeping him from a majority in the EC. That was in 1836.
Then why have electors at all? Why not just get together and state “we have 10 electoral votes for Kamela”. There’s no actual need to have a person who’s job is to literally walk to a place fill a bubble and put it in the envelope box.
I don’t care how the system works to vote for president. All I know is that it’s not my vote and I am a citizen. Can you say that’s a misrepresented statement? “It’s not my vote that elects a president” that is 100% true.
I’ll point back to you saying this:
the electoral college picks presidents for us like kings
Which is, for lack of a better way to put it, simply bullshit.
I’ll also point to you saying this:
I don’t care how the system works to vote for president.
Which sounds like willful ignorance about the election process. I don’t think that’s a position to be proud of.
You ask why we even have electors at all, as if that’s some sort of big “gotcha” monent. I already clearly stated that I don’t think it’s a particularly good system, especially coupled with FPTP and winner-talke-all. What it is, though, is the system we have, so understanding it is pretty vital.
Technically speaking, no, you do not directly vote for a presidential candidate in the general election. In practice, your vote almost certainly will be represented by the electors you vote for if your chosen candidate wins your state or if you live in Nebraska or Maine. Certainly, the electors could be removed entirely from the process while electoral votes remain. That would remove one unnecessary part of the equation, but would it solve anything?
Here’s the real fun: winner-take-all. It’s more damaging than indirect election. Let’s pretend you live in one of three districts that vote for (electors pledged to) Alice, one in a landslide and two hotly contested. But the other two districts in your state elect (electors pledged to) Bob. The statewide popular vote is close but slightly in favor of Bob. Congrats, all seven of your states EC votes go to Bob even though your district overwhelmingly supported Alice, and she won 60% of the districts. Who needs faithless electors when your vote can truly not count for anything? This is how WTA is worse for democracy than electors.
Okay now let’s imagine we did have awesome candidates to choose from not just Kamela, the orange back of peanut Grease and the several others in the list that were never mentioned except for a couple of times when they explained why only Kamela and Trump were in the debates. If let’s say we had two really strong republicans that could get democratic votes against two really strong democrats who could easily get republican votes…how could my vote as a Democrat count at all if I voted for one of the republicans but then I happened to be in a democratic state like Texas (lol. Let’s pretend Texas had mostly democratic electors). Like you mentioned, the electoral vote would be winner takes whatever…all or some. My individual vote is either diluted via population and number of representatives per stated, or eaten up by Jerrymandering or whatever. I say fuck the electoral college, count all the damn votes and make the popular vote win.
Having some sort of mechanism that requires attention to be paid to areas other than high-population centers is probably a good thing. In the system we have now, it swings too far in the other direction by giving some disproportionate power to small pop red states and even more to battleground states. A shift away from WTA, along with replacing FPTP with STAR voting, would be more impactful than abolishing the EC. Even better would be adjusting the size of the House to better normalize the population of districts.
There have been hundreds of attempts to abolish or change the EC. It’s really looking like our best options for real reform are STAR voting and proportional representation.
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A perfectly good meme but I would say it might still presume a little too much good faith.
They’re not undecided. They want to vote for Trump and are desperately hoping for a socially acceptable reason to do so.
It’s only them and God in the voting booth. What’s stopping them?
I think you answered yourself with the question. Someone better with words could make an OK joke out of it.
Apparently putting a huge number of people in jail for minor possession of a drug that is only illegal because of racist 70s politics is spotless, and doing so to support capitalizing the prison system, is spotless. I call it dehumanizing and unconstitutional, but I just care about empirical data that apparently is completely unimportant in tribalist capitalist worshiping countries like the USA.
Countless was a little under 2000 people (at least as far as Harris is concerned) That’s about half of what her predecessor in the same office did over roughly the same time period.
Now, that conviction is for “possession, sale, or cultivation”. Most paid a fine rather than serve jail time. We also don’t know the exact breakdown of possession vs sale vs cultivation.
We also know that Harris pushed for decriminalization and legalization in California, and has pushed some of the same as vice president. I think Joe is the roadblock there, even if he was convinced to pardon a bunch of people for simple possession.
I don’t count “spotless prosecutorial record” as a win, but given the two viable choices I’ll take it over “shockingly successful fascist demagogue” every time, and twice on Sundays.
I holding my finger over the button as long as possible in the hope that the button that the “spotless prosecutorial record” will suddenly add the “stop abetting a genocide” portion we’ve been asking for since before they changed out the previous button, but I guess I’ll be going for the option that isn’t currently telling me how my existence is threatening to them and hope that they’ll follow through on valuing human life this time around.
Agree on your points, I honestly fucking hate cops and by extension prosecutors that enable and collude with them. However the only other option is worse than a pig.
He’s not a Nazi; he’s a fascist. Nazi refers to a specific political party. Fascist is more general.
If he walks like a nazi, talks like a nazi and acts like a nazi. He’s a fucking nazi.
The distinction between a “real” Nazi and a Hitler fanboy is too fine to matter.
He wants to be Hitler, so that’s close enough for me.
Oh, I’m not saying he’s any better than a Nazi. Just being pedantic.
No, the term "Nazi Party"refers to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. The term “Nazi” refers to an adherent to the ideology of Hitler Fascism. The NSDAP didn’t typically refer to themselves with that term.
There’s also a square/rectangle situation in play: all Nazis are fascists but not all fascists are Nazis. In this case, though, he’s more on the square side of the comparison. The biggest departures from the ideology are the inclusion of religion and the lack of Lebensraum (at least at home; there’s an ironic argument to be made about how his belief that Bibi is moving too slowly in Gaza indicates that he has an eye towards creating living-space for certain groups at the expense of others).
The main difference, as I understand, is that national socialism is inherently racist and puts the (Aryan) race on top of the ideology, everything else must submit to the benefit of the (Aryan) race, whereas fascism puts the benefit of the state on top.
https://historyplex.com/difference-between-fascism-nazism
Trump, as far as I can judge from beyond the pond, is still claiming to put the state, or the United States of America, first, like a fascist would do. His hate speech against immigrants still serves the narrative of them being bad for the US, not of them being disadvantageous towards the benefit of the Aryan race.
Spotless record? Could you simp any harder?
Kamala has a crimal record?
If we lived in a just country she would.
It appears a good chunk really loves the racism thingy
It shouldn’t be, but I feel like this is such a delicate thing.
Like, Trump is obviously racist, but his base sees themselves in him and when he is labeled racist, it projects to them; they’re labeled racist too. They “know” they aren’t racist and it’s a strong accusatory word along the lines of being called a pedophile and that instantly brings up defenses and basically kills any chance of swaying their opinion. Besides, if we were wrong calling “them” (their projection from trump) racist, how could we possibly be right about calling Trump racist?
Should we give a shit what these people think? Really wish we didn’t have to, but the world isn’t fair and just enough at the moment to disregard the nuance here.
Four more days. And then another year? Maybe ten?
It’s exhausting.
Virginian here. It’s every year for us. State positions are in the odd years.
Virtual tie 😩
“Pedophile” is missing from the trump one…
Are there really many voters undecided between Harris and Trump?
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I have a friend who voted for Trump and now he is undecided. Now he is saying he isn’t voting for anyone. I guess that’s better than voting for Trump. He lives in AZ. So that is sorta a win.
Naw there’s just a bunch of people who won’t admit they’re voting for Trump when you ask them. They also don’t want their friends/community thinking they’re voting for a Democrat either so they just lie and say they’re undecided or even more likely Independent™ because that sounds cool anyway. They know they’re voting for a fascist but also want to have their cake too and not publicly admit it.
They may not even want the fascist part. But they’re voting for Trump because they think one day they’ll make over $500k/yr and they don’t want to pay “200% more taxes” (it’s actually 2%) when that day inevitably comes. The rest of them secretly would rather kill their children than let a black woman run our country, but they’d never say it.
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That’s a whole lot of fantasy to be specifically mad about.
There’s lots of reasons and likely a lot of issues for each individual that they have felt unseen or unheard on.
But it sure is easier if you can just say everyone is a Trump voter so that you can swing and point fingers around wherever you want. It’s easy and lazy.
Statistically, that’s just not true. Just look at the differences from the polls, the margin between Harris and Trump has moved quite some percentage points back and forth. E.g. after RFKs endorsement, more undecided voters went to Trump and after the debate, more went back to Harris.
So frustrating
I might not leave the country, but I’ll have to leave my state. I wonder if next Friday after work I’ll need to load up everything I can fit in my car and drive as far north as possible. It’s terrifying that my rights as a transgender human vanish will vanish overnight where I live. I’ve heard of bounties in Odessa.
Knowing that most of the people I live and work around are happily voting for a child rapist has broken my brain. The folks protesting at the Planned Parenthood (abortion is already illegal here) are going to vote for a man that’s probably paid for multiple abortions. It’s a sickness I can’t fathom.
fully agree. hope you don’t have to move… but for some miraculous incomprehensible reason the race is a statistical tie
Its sickening what is happening to this country, that you even feel the need to flee in such a way, but it is a realistic concern. There are people who very much want carte blanche to harm trans people, and if Trump is elected they may get that cover, its vile.
It’s so bizarre that it’s a warzone but just for the category you’re in. For now, anyway. Ugh.
❤️
It’s optimistic of you to assume we’ll know the outcome by next Friday. Republicans are going to turn the whole election into a circus if they possibly can.
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