It’s a shit post, I’ll give you that.
Nice use of super dick to deliver the uncomfortable truth.
Jokes on you, my dad took my mom’s name
Your dad took your mother’s dads name.
Turns out it was her middle name.
What if their dad took his wife’s 1st name as his last name?
not just his name, but his DNA too!
Homelander has the best guy resting bitch face I’ve ever seen.
Unpopular opinion: Last names are inherently patriarchal and so is marriage
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Sigh. Lemmy in a nutshell.
Except that it’s older than that, even in Europe, there was quite some time between the Black Plague and capitalism. But they originate in China where they are much older. Sure, capitalism is composed of many aspects and maybe China had some aspect associated with capitalism back than as well and I’m not too sure about the connection between Europe and China regarding last names. I donno.
In The Second Sex, De Beauvoir quotes Engels as he argues that patriarchy (as we know it today) likely arose with the advent of private property. So there is some relation to capitalism (of which private property is a core component), but it goes back way further than the Black Plague and marking it down to “trade promotion” is over-simplistic at best in that it’s wayyyy worse than that.
What you are saying is that private property laid the basis for patriarchy and (much later) for capitalism
That is what I am quoting De Beauvoir and Engels as saying, yes.
that’s right, promoting your trade is capitalism folks
Why would that be the case? How would marriage between two equals in a non-patriarchy be patriarchal? What about marriage between two women? What about last names in a society of beings without gender?
I think you didnt mean ‘inherently’
Yeah I’ve always thought it was weird that women are supposed to give up their identity to a man to be married. I’m not really sure why hyphenated names aren’t as popular in the western world or why people don’t occasionally chose to take the woman’s name. I know that women don’t have to change their names, but then often you’ll have the kids as the same name as the father anyway but not the mother. So I’ve heard many women say that they did it so their kids would share their last name.
Hell, I don’t even like my father. But my name is who I am and I like it.
Hyphenated names are too long. One of my good friends has one and people just refer to him and his siblings by the initials of their last name, like “Tim MP”
The way that I’m gonna do it is whoever has the coolest/most unique last name is the one whose name is adopted. If they’re both equally cool, then hyphenated it is.
How do hyphenated names work after the next generation? Seems like that would get out of hand quickly when people with hyphenated last names start having kids with each other.
“Gifting” kids with absurdly long names isn’t new.
So, just do what a few couples in my circle of friends did and use her last name after marriage?
I would think it would be just as weird to collectively switch to matronymic last names as a society. It would make more sense to me if couples just decided which name they liked better and went with that, be it coming from the man or woman. So a more even split of that sort of pattern is what I mean.
Yeah, that’s what people do here in Germany.
Ah I didn’t know that! Interesting!
with hyphenated names: what would the children do then? you can’t keep adding more and more names like that (both practically and legally in some cases). serious question because I’ve also thought about that
In Canada, you legally pick up to 2 of your parents’ last names for your last name
In
SovietRussia you pick a last name. Any last name. Except containing numbers, non-letters, more than one hyphen, rank or job title.
You clearly haven’t met Brazilians
My name is Maximus Decimus Arnold Garfield Butcher Smith Hendrickson Meridius, and you shall have my name.
I think it varies with culture, but from my understanding, usually they take the first name of the two hyphens for their own marriage.
So you have John Doe and Jane Smith. They hyphenate their names as Doe-Smith and the children do as well.
Say they have a daughter Sally Doe-Smith who meets Tim Johnson-Star. So they marry and hyphenate their names as Johnson-Doe. Both Smith and Star get dropped.
Yes, in examples like this, it still ends up as getting rid of the maternal aspect of the lineage in the very end…but the point is still that both parties are keeping part of and changing another part of their names. It’s not an all or nothing total switch of identity. The lineage is male, but the here and now is an equal compromise of identity.
Not enough to balance things out
Maybe not quite, but iml it’s certainly leaps and bounds better that altering your identity entirely in submission of a partner.
Been divorced twice, neither of them gave much of a shit and never changed their surname back. My wife’s Filipino and was very proud to take my surname. Ran right out and changed all her documents. Her enthusiasm was touching!
I’m in the opposite place! Met my dad when I was 20 and he really wanted me to change to his surname. Sorry dad, that would have felt really weird.
It is weird because we as a civilization believe women are persons and corporations are not. And sooner or later, Molotovs will be thrown in support of this notion, since silence is being interpreted as consent.
Whoops. That was my outside voice.🪀🪀💣🪀
Sorry I’m not understanding what you mean
The reason women take their husband’s name is because they’re property, and rights to their person transfers from their father to their husband.
That’s it.
And right now (at least in the States, maybe in some parts of Europe) there are large far-right movements trying to return society to those days.
Find your crew or your fam, and have them give you your given name. Then choose your surname. Break free.
Ah ok yeah your first comment was sarcastic then haha
Okay well, whats the benefit to the male?
the patriarchy doesn’t benefit the male. in fact, most men are overall harmed by the forces of patriarchy.
the goal of patriarchy is to subjugate and repress an “other,” that is, women. it’s true that patriarchy gives privelege to men, but equating privilege and benefit is to misunderstand the core components of the system.
An aspect of patriarchy is patrilineality. Belonging to your fathers lineage rather than your mother’s or even being stripped of your heritage and being a mere adjunct to your husband isn’t materially benefiting the man but lays the ground for that
On Spain we have two last names, one for the father other for the mother.
And while before the father’s was always the first, since many years couples of newborn babies can choose the order of the surnames.
Is the latter your mother’s first or second last name?
First last name. Example:
Mother: Maria García Perez
Father: Juan Rodríguez Domínguez
Their kids can be named:
Adela García Rodríguez
or
Adela Rodríguez García
Ans once selected the order with the first kid all the kids from the same couple must follow the same order.
So it’s the mother’s father’s name, or the names of both grandfathers. Still patrilineal
I mean, if you go that way, when surnames where created in the middle ages it was the name of the man.
All spanish surnames ending in -ez mean “son of”. And it’s always male names.
But change has to start at some point.
Some cultures trace heritage both patrilineal and matrilineal, so taking the first last name of your father as your first and the second last name of your mother as your second would be that.
I’m curious, which country does it like that? Seems pretty interesting.
is that an unpopular opinion, or just a well-known fact?
Maybe all my downvotes come from people who say it’s the latter? I’ve been in bubbles that see it as a well known fact, I’ve talked to left leaning people who didn’t. Maybe it’s just a wording I used to attract attention, maybe not, we will never know for sure.
my instance doesn’t show downvotes, so all I see is that you have lots of upvotes 😊
I suspect downvotes would come from people who disagree that marriage is patriarchal, tbh - I think a lot of people don’t really understand patriarchy or feminism, so they might thing you are being hyperbolic, like claiming marriage is akin to beating your wife or something.
Or they could just be responding merely to the language and not even the content, i.e. by talking about patriarchy at all or posing it in social terms they might think you have been duped by woke propaganda.
Whether it’s an unpopular opinion just depends on what crowd you are in. I think a lot of people understand marriage is a patriarchal institution, that a patrilineal naming scheme is part of that patriarchy, etc., but I’m sure there are lots of people who think that is false, or over-stated, or who aren’t entirely sure what ten-dollar words like “patrilineal” actually mean, lol.
I think the downvotes come from a semantic disagreement, based on a strong or weak definition of the word ‘inherent’.
huh, that sounds like a rationalization, a way to find a problem with a critique that sounds more defensible or reasonable than defending patriarchy
My point is, by looking at one of the replies, that people might just be misunderstanding the argument being presented, as they have a different understanding of what ‘inherent’ means, and if you look up a dictionary definition, you can understand why.
For example: in “existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.”, the first two clauses are immutable, but third is mutable.
As last names are a social construct, their characteristics and usage can change over time. Just because they started as, or are predominately used as a tool of patriarchy, doesn’t mean that’s what they will be in the future. If you believe that something ‘inherent’ is an immutable trait, that you would disagree with the premise of the argument, but if you think it’s just a characteristic trait, then you would generally agree - if I change my last name to ‘Orange’ to signify my love of the fruit/colour, it is still a last name, but has nothing to do with patriarchy, proving that patriarchy is not an immutable trait of last names.
Personally, I think that both marriage and last names are predominately used as tools to enforce patriarchy historically and currently, but can imagine that changing in the future. But when I initially looked at the OP’s statement, I disagreed, because I understood ‘inherent’ to be an immutable trait.
my instance doesn’t show downvotes, so all I see is that you have lots of upvotes 😊
In that case: the majority is still upvotes so I’m not complaining or anything :)
Unpopular opinion: Patriarchy as defined by feminists is a nebulous and unfalsifiable concept that can be replaced by “the devil” without changing the meaning of the sentence it’s used in.
Also, serious posting in a shitposting thread.
yep and it’s good that opinion stays unpopular
you could swap the subject of criticism with “the devil” in any sentence and it would be the same though?
“the devil (covid-19) caused a pandemic”
“the devil (billionaires) is pushing more people into poverty”
“the devil (adhd) is making me procrastinate doing the dishes”
“the devil (you) has really weak criticisms of feminism, since if only he read about it, he’d realise he can see and feel the effects of the patriarchy everywhere. and the way he talks right now makes me believe he only knows the concept from strawman memes”
In these examples you used “the devil” as a placeholder for explainable phenomena with varying causes, none of them being unfalsifiable. Now consider the following sentence:
“The wage gap is causes by the patriarchy” – Surely there are no complex causes being substituted by a nebulous concept here, is it?
the concept is only “nebulous” to people who are talking out of their asses, when they haven’t even bothered to look past the word definition and strawman memes about the patriarchy
man, please, stop making yourself look like a fool, go read about it, it’s really not that hard
none of us would judge you @[email protected] if you picked up and perused this free copy of Feminism is for Everybody by bell hooks right now. in fact that would be really cool.
“i refuse to listen to what feminists say, and because of that i have no concept of their actual positions and it’s all really nebulous and confusing to me” —that user
(edit: by “that user” i mean @rooty, if that wasn’t clear? @[email protected] you are totally correct)
Which feminists are you even referring to exactly? There are different waves of feminism and different strands (like liberal feminism, marxist feminism, black feminism, …). Either you picked a few straw(wo)men who have a shitty definition or you are confused by the variety of definitions and approaches and that confuses you.
my comment was about @rooty who said “Patriarchy as defined by feminists is a nebulous and unfalsifiable concept” not you or anyone else. because of course, people who actually read any wave or subsect of feminism will immediately find feminists have a whole host of concrete and evidenced conceptions of the term patriarchy.
i was seeking to laugh at @rooty who has clearly never done any work to listen to any feminist and gets all their undestanding of it from straw man memes.
it seems people like yourself are misunderstanding my language to mean the opposite, sorry for any confusion.
Sorry, I didn’t read the username and thought it’s rooty again
ohh that might explain some of the other downvotes too lol
I donno but this sounds like something the devil would say
When people get married they should come up with a completely new last name for them both.
Terrible idea. People clearly already struggling at naming kids. Coming up with a family name will be endless letters making the wrong sound, random sections being ‘silent’, so many puns or references to things, corporate advertising “oh it’s the X.com family!”… Terrible, just terrible.
We could always do what Iceland does.
I’m sure that will scale up to much larger populations without issues.
Are you saying that the people who came up with the original surnames are more qualified than people today? At least with my idea when people come up with a new name they have to use it themselves, rather than their defenseless children.
A coworker of mine did this. He and his new wife took parts of their last names and blended them together to create a unique new last name for both of them.
I hope it wasn’t a tragedeigh
That’s very cool, i like that
We should use uuids
Calm down Enoch Root
UUID me daddy
came here to make this exact comment, was delighted it already exists XD
I identify myself as a ULID.
our beautiful baby boy Robert 3de2d34e-a089-4a5a-acd8-b00d7c7eb07a
Oh yeah, little Bobby 3d we call him
I mean it’s not far off from Musk’s X AE ZigZag VII Advent Children and Kkkopernicus Diceware Password kids.
There’s even a website cataloguing them all! https://everyuuid.com/
A lot of last names here are frozen patronyms (e.g. at some point some dude named Hans had kids; now there are lots of people calling themselves his son, Hansen) or place names. I kinda like the place name bit: Just give kids last names to a place they have a connection to. Where they were born or conceived or something.
Certainly in the long past your last name was probably derived from the town or area that you lived in. I don’t think it would work today.
Conceived? You really want to be named after the motel your daddy did a big cummy in your mommy’s pussy?
Are you familiar with the Paris Hilton?
It’s tacky, but let’s be honest, that’s the least tacky thing about her.
I think she gets a pass for the last name seeing as the hotels are named after her family and not the other way around.
Not sure if she was conceived in Paris. I’ll ask her next time I’m having a three-way again with her and your mom.
obviously, her family is already named Hilton so GP couldn’t have been referring to that
That last sentence is cursed.
I seem to recall it was pretty common on Reddit (back in the day maybe)
If you say so, Ms. Motel 6.
“London”: Not too bad, works ok.
“Climax”: …
“Tallahassee”: Pretty frickin’ awesome as a nickname but not sure formally.
“Syracuse”: I syr-acuse that of sounding dumb.
But regardless, besides all the “Von” or “De” or whatever names I’m willing to bet that modified or old spelling last names based on places are totally a thing that we also just decided to stop doing.
Yeah, like the -berg names (e.g. Stoltenberg), it’s likely the family farm if you go far enough back. My family has a name that’s an island and the settlement on it. Taking a profile picture next to the town sign that’s also our last name is pretty common (for a name of a few hundred people).
Dragon Rider The Bathroom At The Roller Rink
🎤 My name is chika-chika Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
Error: Exceeds character limit
You’d end up with lots of people in each area having the same name.
And we do! The most common name in the Netherlands translates to “the Frisian”.
Also jobs. Lots of millers, smiths and hunters etc
Ironically no one had the last name of “prostitute” or “harlot”
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I, John Prostitute, am offended by this.
Better than Whorson at least.
coughHookercough
The job was named after Joseph Hooker
Sorry, but unfortunately I got interested and followed your link:
There is a popular legend that “hooker” as a slang term for a prostitute is derived from his last name[26] because of parties and a lack of military discipline at his headquarters near the Murder Bay district of Washington, DC. Some versions of the legend claim that the band of prostitutes that followed his division was derisively referred to as “General Hooker’s Army” or “Hooker’s Brigade”.[27] However, the term “hooker” was used in print as early as 1845, years before Hooker was a public figure,[28] and is likely derived from the concentration of prostitutes around the shipyards and ferry terminal of the Corlear’s Hook area of Manhattan in the early to middle 19th century, who came to be referred to as “hookers”.
lack of military discipline at his headquarters near the Murder Bay district
To be fair, he could probably have chosen a better place to set up…
Yeah, doesn’t seem to be a thing in Norway, but it could probably be revived for the countries that did that. Like Sheryl Copywriter or Ross Youtuber or whatever.
Where they were born or conceived or something.
“Hi there, Mr. Dumpsterbach.”
In Germany the current government had the idea (but never follow through on it) to allow a married couple to form a new last name based on their last names. Funnily enough the article mentions that this meshing of names is already possible and getting more popular in the USA and Great Britain.
Yeah, you can legally change your first and your last name to pretty much whatever you want as long as it isn’t deemed too offensive in both the U.S. and the UK.
https://listverse.com/2024/02/21/10-bizarre-legal-name-changes/
Big props to the kid who legally changed his name to Captain Fantastic Faster Than Superman Spiderman Batman Wolverine Hulk and The Flash Combined
No thanks. I don’t care what my hypothetical spouse wants to do with their last name but I’m not changing mine. Sounds like a pain in the ass.
It is a pain in the ass, a burden that is put on the woman. Men don’t even have to consider changing their last name if they don’t want to, (straight, married) women have to consider if they will betray expectations by not taking her husband’s last name.
The only reason I wouldn’t want to take my partner’s name, or have the partner take mine, is the same reason I wouldn’t want to blend. It’s just a headache to make sure everything is changed. It’s why you see a lot of people who published research before their marriage continue to publish under the same name even if they changed their name. It’s a major hassle.
Sure it’s a headache. So why does the woman have to do it? I think either keep your names as is or both people change.
My wife was made fun of for her last name until she was like 25 (her social group sucked), so she was delighted to changed her name when I asked her if we were going to use mine or hers. I still don’t entirely mind changing mine or keeping it: I’d gotten a few public works built around town and one of them was named after me, and if I took her name the chances of getting them to change the name of that shelter were fuck all. You can only be the center of the universe for so long. So it just kind of worked out for both of us.
I think either keep your names as is
Uh… that was exactly what I said…
So why does the woman have to do it?
And that was exactly what I was saying I wouldn’t do…
That’s great we’re in agreement. Your comment said “… a lot of people who published research before their marriage continue to publish under the same name even if they changed their name.”
So I didn’t read your comment as saying woman shouldn’t change their name, because you’re describing women changing their name, and then not using the new name in a specific context.
My wife and I actually did this, sort of. Not a completely new name, but we took her grandmother’s name, rather than either of ours. Or, her great grandfather’s name, I suppose.
Introducing Mr and Mrs. KoboldCoterie!
Technicallly, it is still of her father.
Lol a lot of people don’t like this realization
It’s more that it’s kinda missing the point. Everything is something else if you try hard enough but in this case the intention behind it is to honour the father instead of the mother and that’s still working fine.
/father ?
Fixed it haha
Its a fucking shit post. Release the pearls.
You literally commented first.
Looks like somebody doesn’t like the consequences of their actions. Poor baby.
What in the hell are you talking about? What consequences? Yeah i know you responded to me. And I told you its a shitpost, stop clenching your pearls.
Why am i explaining this very simple interaction?
Yikes.
Lol this person has some imaginary conversation going on
They are one of the best imaginary pearl clutchers on Lemmy while never getting that they are being an asshole too.
Isn’t it funny how a simple fact actually bothers people
No one is off-put by the realization. Just the attitude the post represents.
Today I learned that facts are viewed through the lens of an attitude
The amount of high horses in the shitpost community is much more than expected.
What attitude is that?
mostly laughing at women it seems
Scratching my head trying to figure out how an undeniale fact is somehow a condemnation of women.
pointing out how someone’s mother’s last name is just their grandfather’s last name ignores the point the person was trying to make in favour of going “well akschually”.
a woman who feels more connected with her mother and prefers her last name over her father’s last name has made that decision based on her emotions associated with her family relationships. And it was a choice she had to make against the default way surnames are given.
people rarely do things like going through lengthy legal processes to get the necessary paperwork to change your last name for shit and giggles. Instead of “well askchanelyling” people’s choices, think a bit on why they made that particular choice, or you could also ask them
That character IS laughable, in all fairness.
Aren’t almost all the characters in that show awful?
Yup. She’s particularly bad, imo, because she keeps validating the crazy guy. She takes a bunch of drugs so she can lactate, because Homelander likes breastfeeding because he killed his mom during birth.
I forgot we can only laugh at men. Sorry everyone.
“Haha women weak patriarchy STRONK”
I guess. That’s not how i saw it.
I know this is a shitposting community but these are, every goddamn one of them, the dumbest possible takes you could have opened a new year with.
A quarter century into the new millenium and our general intelligence level hasn’t budged since the ice age.
I think it’s gone down tbh. The average human is not experiencing the same novel problems that require troubleshooting and focus. A lot of thought is just decision based these days.
According to the little arrows on our comments, there were like, two people really angered by this thought that some people think the rest of people are stupid. It’s amazing.
I don’t think stupid is the correct word, however I do think there are efforts to make independent thought and trouble shooting more difficult for the working class. There is a pretty large incentive for the ruling class to have the least educated population there can be.
Notice they didn’t use ‘maiden name’ because then the joke falls apart
You mean their father’s last name?
Does the bank ever ask you for your mother’s father’s last name as opposed to her maiden name? Sounds like a scene from a wes anderson film.
I assume they did mean “maiden name”, how else does the joke make sense? The mom’s maiden name is the maternal grandfather’s last name …
If you didn’t know, Spanish people have two names: the first name of their father and the first name of their mother.
Since these names are their grandfathers names, here’s a better proposal : the first name of your father and the second name of your mother. In that case, your first name corresponds to a bloodline of men and your second name to a bloodline of women… Unless their was a same-sex couple in your family, obviously.
Bonus point, since you get your Y chromosome (if you have one) from your biological father and your mitochondrial DNA from your biological mother, your names correspond to your actual DNA… Unless you’re adopted or illegitimate, obviously.
You can actually chose to have them reverted (mother first, father second). Also, the wife does not take the husband’s surname.
I’m pretty sure only people on the internet argue about this. No one actually cares what other’s do with their last name after marriage.
This post has 2017 reddit vibes. Not in a good way either.
Well, reddit turned to shit around 2014, so the fact it still sucked around 2017 can’t be a surprise?
People definitely care, but not about which side of the family or if it comes from mommy or daddy. Most people just want an “original” name.
People literally change their names because they feel like it, so I’m sure people do care outside the Internet, specially in circumstances of abuse.
Holy comment section batman
Yeah, my mom said she didn’t care about taking my dad’s last name, that it didn’t matter since, in her words “women don’t have last names anyway” they are just a way of tracing men’s family lines.
I’m noes! People are doing things I didn’t agree to again.
