“If the purges [of potential voters], challenges and ballot rejections were random, it wouldn’t matter. It’s anything but random. For example, an audit by the State of Washington found that a Black voter was 400% more likely than a white voter to have their mail-in ballot rejected. Rejection of Black in-person votes, according to a US Civil Rights Commission study in Florida, ran 14.3% or one in seven ballots cast.”
"[…] Democracy can win* despite the 2.3% suppression headwind.
And that’s our job as Americans: to end the purges, the vigilante challenges, the ballot rejections and the attitude that this is all somehow OK."
Once again, Trump said (during his first term, I believe) on Fox News Republicans would never win another election if minorities vote. They know this. They consistently make it harder and harder for people to vote, while targeting minorities.
Once again, Trump said (during his first term, I believe) on Fox News Republicans would never win another election if minorities vote.
He was wrong. A big part of the '24 GOP wave came from young male latino and black voters who were entranced by the get-rich-quick promises of Trump/Vance. Online hustler culture on social media has been a huge driving force behind conservative voter expansion.
How 5 key demographic groups voted in 2024: AP VoteCast
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Trump’s share of Black voters rose slightly, driven largely by younger men
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Slightly more Hispanic voters supported Trump in 2020
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Narrow gains with (white) women benefitted Trump
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Trump saw a modest increase with men
Republicans have been leveraging their “business friendly” credentials to win over poorer POC voters for a while. And as Democrats adopt the same strategy, we’re running into the same problem as in 2000 and 1988 - voters aren’t able to distinguish between candidates on economic issues.
For POC women voters, the divisions are more stark. But for men of any shade, Dem decay in social media (their active war on left-leaning TikTok being a huge unforced error in an environment that’s trended hard-right since the Obama admin) and their refusal to deliver on college debt relief, cheap housing, cheap mass transit, or public health care is leaving Republicans with a huge discontented block of younger voters to poach.
-
The perma stun proceeds at pace
Dem pols are always too afraid to exercise the power they have when they win. Always. When Biden won, DC and Puerto Rican statehood should have been the first things on the agenda.
The GOP is never afraid to exercise as much power as they can get away with.
Biden never had enough control of the whole government to get those things done without Republican buy-in.
A Republican controlled house won’t send a bill like that to the Senate. A Republican controlled Senate won’t send it to the President.
You can be upset at Biden, but we’ve rarely ever given a Democratic president a Democratic Congress to help him get anything done.
Uh, no. He had a Democratic congress the first half of his term. Part of why he lost them is Dems are so tepid with exercising the power the voters give them.
Nothing the Dems do, or even try to do, gin the base up into excitement. The base never feels inspired that the Dems are striving for the goals they claim to represent and want.
Hang on…WTF!
Re post text: For context, Washington state is mail-only voting, so that number would (I assume) be for all votes, not just specifically requested mail-ins. I didn’t see it in the article, but I wonder if that is predominantly “centralized” or “distributed” in nature; i.e. are technically-valid ballots from all voters being incorrectly rejected by the county elections facilities office at different rates across racial lines, or are there other factors like targeted disinformation, education, local infrastructure, or socioeconomics that disproportionately affect Black (or other types of minority) voters that would make them more likely to produce a technically-invalid ballot?
Those might get the same statistic, but would seem to indicate very different sorts of problems and approaches.
You can vote in-person in Washington if you want to, if you lost your ballot, etc. Also, I think most people here use the drop boxes rather than their mailbox. If not most, still quite a lot.
I work in elections in Washington, there is only mail in voting plus county drop boxes. Yes you can say you lost your ballot or didn’t get it and come in for a replacement, but we give you the same mail in packet you world receive at home.
Yes you can drop it in the drop box in our office or you can take it home and mail it. But any voter can drop their mail in ballot off in our office as well. We don’t have polling places or voting machines, or a way to separate out and assign race to a ballot so we could somehow treat those differently. They all come in as a big stack for processing.
Why do ballots get rejected? Mismatched signatures is the biggest reason. If your signature doesn’t match what we have on file we mail you a form to fix it, we also text and email you. Maybe from demographic groups are less likely to respond? The other one is people who forget to sign, which follows the same procedure.
What I can say is that is there is some sort of disparity, it isn’t happening in the ballot processing room.
By “restrictive voting laws” do you mean voters having to show ID? Like every other country on the planet?
It’s not as difficult to get ID in many other countries
It’s not difficult in the US
It’s harder than it should be
Harder than going to the place that gives them out and asking for one? I’m not going to hold your hand
If only it were that easy!
It is, I’ve done it many times
Are you white? Are you not living in poverty?
I am very happy it has been easy for you. From what I have read that is not the case for many
https://today.umd.edu/umd-analysis-millions-of-americans-dont-have-id-required-to-vote
And “just get one” is not a solution when you live in poverty and don’t even have the transportation to go to the nearest license branch, which could be miles away. If you still have the proper documents, which sometimes are ridiculous in terms of what is needed.
And then, if you’re black and were born in the South during (and even sometimes after) Jim Crow, it’s entirely possible that there is no official record of your birth because no hospital would admit your mother.
No, this article is talking about things like rejecting registration based on minor clerical errors like ink color, rejecting provisional ballots arbitrarily, and restricting the availability of ballot boxes. That sort of thing.
On the voter id question, by the way, the argument isn’t about whether or not you should have ID to vote, it’s about whether you can get ID in the first place.
Most countries in the world either issue IDs to everyone or allow you to prove your identity with things like bank statements and utility bills, or just somebody else who can vouch for you. The problem with US voter ID laws is that they only give you a few options for acceptable documents, and then make it hard to get those documents.
or allow you to prove your identity with things like bank statements and utility bills, or just somebody else who can vouch for you.
My state’s voter ID allows all of those things and more (including the voter registration card given to you for free when you register and whenever you update your registration as well as SNAP and TANF cards), although here the “somebody else who can vouch for you” has to have ID themselves and has to sign a sworn statement on penalty of perjury that you are who you say you are and that they have known you for at least 6 months.
Yeah, that seems like a reasonable approach.
By comparison, North Carolina attempted to implement a voter ID law in 2016 that was eventually overturned by the Supreme Court because it deliberately targeted black voters.
Why don’t you ever try and actually meet the other side in good faith?
Opponents of voter ID have a very simple line of argumentation, and very clear issues that would need to be solved. Why do you think proponents of voter ID never attempt to solve these issues?
Why do proponents always insist that voter ID has to be implemented in a way that happens to hurt minority voters disproportionately?
Why don’t you ever try and actually meet the other side in good faith?
You first
Opponents of voter ID have a very simple line of argumentation, and very clear issues that would need to be solved.
Like?
Why do you think proponents of voter ID never attempt to solve these issues?
You don’t name them or they’re aren’t an actual issue
Why do proponents always insist that voter ID has to be implemented in a way that happens to hurt minority voters disproportionately?
They don’t
You first
No, I won’t allow you to disadvantage minorities, no matter how often you ask.
Like?
You’ve literally never listened to anyone opposing your view? Or why are you asking me?
You don’t name them or they’re aren’t an actual issue
No, I think you’re a bad faith troll and won’t invest more time than strictly necessary. If you’re not a bad faith troll, it’s literally one search away!
They don’t
You literally started your comment doing exactly this
No, I won’t allow you to disadvantage minorities, no matter how often you ask.
I won’t allow you to stereotype minorities as people incapable of doing things, especially something as easy as getting an ID.
You’ve literally never listened to anyone opposing your view? Or why are you asking me?
I do it everyday, you just don’t have an answer
it’s literally one search away!
Should be easy for you to name them then
You literally started your comment doing exactly this
I literally never said anything about that. Literally
Oh, it’s a bad faith troll, what a surprise, who could have seen it coming, oh no
I just responded the same way you did
If you really think that, I’ll give you one last chance. I’ll explain why your response to my serious points was wrong. You can explain properly why you disagree, without resorting to strawmans or insults or anything. Deal?
My position is: minorities will be disproportionately affected by voter ID laws, since it’s on average objectively harder for a poor person to get an ID (due to transportation, scheduling due to possibly multiple jobs etc.), and minorities are disproportionately poor. You could mitigate this disproportionate effect by first ensuring easy and equal access to ID for all citizens. Even if you disagree on any of these points, you should at least be able to accept that you can get what you want if you give me what I want, and giving me what I want doesn’t hurt you in any way.
So, why do you still ask me to make the first move? Why can’t you see that you’re blocking yourself from getting what you want here?
I won’t allow you to stereotype minorities as people incapable of doing things, especially something as easy as getting an ID.
Strawman racist bullshit, disguised as uplifting affirmation of equality. Tell us you don’t see color while you’re at it.
I did the same thing they did. Why don’t you tell us how you *acknowledge your white privilege *
I try to acknowledge my white privilege by voting for politicians and laws that attempt to mitigate that privilege, by extending it as widely as possible, to as many people as possible.
Your unexamined privilege is demonstrated in claiming things like satisfying voter ID laws is easy when it is not for many, for a variety of profound and serious reasons.
I SENTENCE THIS USER TO ONE HOUR ON THE CHAIR OF CHEER
I sentence you to a lifetime
Like?
You don’t name them or they’re aren’t an actual issue
The biggest and most obvious is that ID isn’t available to literally everyone who can legally vote without cost to the end user of any kind, and as a consequence requiring such an ID is tantamount to a poll tax. Federal ID that’s fully subsidized would be the easiest solution, and if done right you could even optionally fold most state ID systems into a federal one with things like being licensed to drive being an endorsement on the federal ID.
Notably, the same people who demand photo ID to vote also tend to be the people terrified of a federal ID as a concept.
Look at Spain. We have been using our IDs for decades and it’s a great way to solve that problem. You just go to the voting table, show your ID (DNI) and vote. That’s it. And it works for everything related to anything official.
But because of the voting system we don’t have gerrymandering (or at least not that much).
That works great for Spain (and most other countries) because it has a compulsory national ID. This doesn’t exist in the US, so introducing such laws shouldn’t be done before easy access to such an ID exists for everyone.
We all know. Nothing was or will be done. Now they can rig it from the inside. Was a fun run!
Democrats had the opportunity to fix this when they were in office. They chose to protect the filibuster instead.
Did they or did Manchin and Sinema, who go figure are no longer Democrats, stop them?
deleted by creator
get the fuck out of here with this horseshit
both parties Democrats and Republicans both use voter suppression based on what their check writers want
for example there is bipartisan efforts to keep United States citizens locked up for a list of nonviolent offences such as Bidens tough crime bills and now immigrants and women are on the list too
the education system is also used to suppress votes - no democracy without a properly funded education system
bipartisan effort to keep the minimum wage at $7.25 is another way to suppress votes - tired, overworked people do not vote with an informed healthy mind thus subverting democracy more
state of healthcare is another way voters are suppressed - health people would not vote for the current state of things
the politicians’ check writers also suppress by controlling the media that is consumed along with the entirety of culture deleting content as needed to keep us in line
and the list goes on we need to throw both parties out and start fresh
While many of those things may effect people’s ability to vote, how many of them target republican voters? I’m pretty sure that’s what “this shit” that you want them to “fuck out of here with” is talking about.
Reading through their list I can think of specific examples for each point on each side (except the education point though that may be more local or referring to something less specific i.e. religious charter school support) - though that isn’t to imply equality. On most of these points Republicans are pretty clearly worse generally speaking…
Still, I think it was an interesting comment because, while a lot of people dismissed it out of hand, it isn’t wrong to highlight that both sides are guilty of all (except education) these things and to excise this rot will take a lot of effort.
Both parties this both parties that, why don’t you try using both sides of your own brain.
Because both parties use voter suppression to their advantage
They won’t. All they post is “both sides!@!#&$+$($:” over and over again.
Funny how all the bipartisan stuff they mention truly is Republican stuff…
It’s also amusing that they don’t seem to know what voter suppression is.
I guess the 78 voters suppression laws red states introduced is exactly the same as the 0 suppression laws blue states introduced.
Oh look election denialism
Oh look, voter suppression denialism.
While voter suppression exists, voter suppression didn’t make safe blue states go down 2 digits of percentage.
Its the propaganda that did it. Money won. Unlimited money to throw at the propaganda manifacturing, won (thanks to citizens united)
Voter suppression includes manipulating people into not voting, such as “both sides are the same” and “your one vote doesn’t matter”. I’d probably include pushing people to vote for non-serious third parties, although it may not technically be “voter suppression”.
Imagine not doing your work as a president for 4 years in order to manipulate to not vote for you LMAO 🤣
Yeah trump lost, that’s why he is the president of the united states of America
Guys, ease up with the fickle double think
Next thing you’ll say that Kamala won and she is the one in actual charge of the nation lmao 🤣
Is winning by cheating winning?
So then what makes the presidency?
In the US?
Do you have actual proof? Did you denounce it to the authorities? Hell, have you taken this proof to the press? I’m sure everyone would love to hear and see about it!
They know. They are complicit! Gerry mandering, voter suppression getting rid of polling locations in black neighborhoods. Making it illegal to give water to those waiting to vote. Trump saying something about elon knowing these machine very well. Removing people from voter registration. I’m sure there is more. If you are unaware of these things you are living under a rock.
So, no proof then?
If you want to ignore the proof provided then yes.
Lol where is the proof of cheating the election?
https://lemmy.world/comment/14726844
Here
One better
https://lemmy.world/comment/14729078
There is proof, just because you don’t accept it as such, doesn’t mean it isn’t. Sounds like the arguments flat earthers make.
What is funny is this is everything Aotus did when Biden won. Guess what? We didn’t love to hear about the massive voter fraud he claimed and was unable to prove. Strange that when he won suddenly no problems with voting.
You would have to live under a rock to come up with these double standards. I would like to see someone take proof of gerrymandering to Faux News to see what they do about it. Oh yeah, absolutely nothing.
So no proof?
Proof of gerrymandering and voter suppression?
Gerrymandering is not really up for debate. It happens a lot.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/how-gerrymandering-tilts-2024-race-house
Voter suppression is nothing new either. The Fascists have been passing laws for decades now under the guise of securing our already secure elections. Here are some in 2024.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-september-2024
Oh okay so no proof then. Where are the fake ballots with like 50 million votes? Where is the cheating man?
Come on, you are sitting in a gold mine if you have all that.
Weird that the Dems haven’t done anything about it last 4 years. Or before that when they had the chance
You were literally given proof. You refusing to read the links is not someone else’s fault.
This is why Kamala accepting the outcome “No matter what”, to prove she’s better than Trump…
Was the dumbest thing she could have done because it was just playing into the GOP’s hand.
The Republican game is “You go high, we go low, because low gets us elected and furthers our agenda.”
I thought their game was “Low, no matter what.”
I think the game is “there’s always more barrel to scrape.”
No one actually ever considered kamala might win. As soon as Biden dropped out, anyone that actually knew something knew Democrats had thrown in the towel.
One lesson 2020 should have taught everyone and that’s vote by mail WORKS.
Lifting the restrictions on vote by mail for Covid won the election for Biden, and replacing those restrictions in 2024 lost it for Harris.
We should have 100% vote by mail in all states.
One lesson 2020 should have taught everyone and that’s vote by mail WORKS.
It was a lesson national administrators learned. That’s why it was heavily clawed back. 2020 was a big year for Popular Socialist Candidates. Neither party enjoyed a wave year that included The Squad and put a guy like Bernie Sanders in arm’s reach of Biden after Super Tuesday.
We should have 100% vote by mail in all states.
Republicans have been outspoken in opposition to mail-in voting, particularly for younger college-aged voters. But even Dems are lackluster in their support for full enfranchisement, on the grounds that higher participation tends to make controlling primaries more difficult and expensive (the NY-14 upset by AOC being a classic example).
vote by mail WORKS.
Which is why red states didn’t want to use it. Can’t stay in power if you don’t suppress votes.
So the new campaign is that the DNC did nothing wrong, they were just thwarted by voter suppression?
Couldn’t be they completely fucked up by campaigning to a center that doesn’t exist any more. The DLC’s triangulation bullshit is dead and needs to stay dead. Every Dem from the Clinton era needs to get that through their damn heads, they should have retired a decade ago anyway.
It’s a combination of everything, DNC has been spineless and bought out by corps, voter suppression techniques from Republicans skewed votes in their favor, white rural voters came out in droves to vote for trump, the Harris campaign failure to meaningfully address the genocide or get enough messaging out to address people’s financial troubles.
The genocide voters are idiots. Harris spent too much time trying to court “moderate” republicans.
Congrats, the dems passively let a decades old tradition of passively supporting Israel go mildly unchanged and the idiots let a genocide accelerationist into power. Not stopping a genocide is not the same as accelerating it.
For being a supposed liberal, you seem to have a hard problem accepting the validity of other people’s beliefs.
Voting is a cultural thing. People have different beliefs about voting. Your way is not the only way. Your way is not the “right” way simply because it is your way.
Some people, like yourself, vote looking forward. They pick which candidate they believe would be the best. They view voting as a job interview. Others vote looking backwards. They seek to hold their leaders accountable. They view voting as a performance review.
Which way is “correct?” Neither. There is no “correct” way to vote. And it’s extremely chauvinistic and close-minded to assume that your way is the only way.
In truth, any system or movement needs both types of voters. You need a balance of both types of voters, otherwise a political party is lost. You need forward-looking voters to win elections. You need backward-looking voters to ensure that winning elections actually does your party any good. If you only have backward-looking voters, you’ll never win an election. If you only have forward-looking voters, you’ll end up with leaders so ineffectual that they don’t accomplish anything even if they do win.
Stop shaming your brothers and sisters simply because they have a different voting culture than yourself. Your beliefs are just one side of a coin. Try to keep an open mind. Try to actually earn the title “liberal.”
Stop shaming your brothers and sisters simply because they have a different voting culture than yourself.
Your whole argument here reads like a middle-school debate kid trying to apply moral relativism for the first time.
Sometimes it doesn’t matter how you vote. But sometimes, like now, it does. People have a moral responsibility for their actions, including how they vote. Those who vote for fascists are responsible for empowering those same fascists. There’s no way to weasel out of that.
It all sounds a bit like saying that the Civil War was just a difference in opinion about cultures. But politics has real consequences for real people’s lives. Sometimes you have to make choices, and the idea that they’re all somehow morally equivalent is a load of nonsense.
What the fuck are you on about? I’m talking about voter suppression and progressive masquerading astroturf dissuading people from voting, not talking about how people should vote. Pay the fuck attention to the conversation in the thread.
The end result of progressives being dissuaded from voting because “Genocide Joe is not stopping Israel’s genocide” and other voter suppression tactics has resulted “make the genocide even worse Don” getting into office.
The voter suppression problem is a symptom of the spineless and bought out DNC problem. Dems should be talking about nationwide voting laws and how red states aren’t democratic and don’t have legitimate rule of law constantly, but that would be too radical and unpredictable for the corps to feel comfortable with, so instead they focus their legislative efforts on just cutting checks to all the state governments for this infrastructure initiative or that climate bill or whatever, which helps assholes like Ron DeSantis and Brian Kemp run the systems of patronage and oppression that keep them in power (also, those checks are eventually ending up in the corps’ accounts, so they’re happy too).
They don’t talk about voting laws during the campaign because it loses.
Contrary to popular belief, they’re not idiots.
If you get all the corporations to turn against you, especially the media companies, you lose. Ask Bernie.
They’re not doing everything right, certainly, but it’s also not a simple problem to solve. There are some very fine lines to walk for Dems. Kamala tried to walk those lines and failed.
She offered a $50k credit towards buying your first house. Does Gen Z remember that?
Meanwhile Trump could shout “hail Hitler” tomorrow and all the corporate media (and then 50% of the voters) would make excuses for him.
We need voters to seek out primary sources. We need them to be more resistant to manipulation. The problem isn’t getting the information out there; it’s getting people to hear it. How many people who didn’t vote for Kamala went to KamalaHarris.com? And how many of those seriously considered what she had to say?
The problem is that saying nothing is more of a winning strategy than saying something. People always want to tear you down, and more words give them more ammo. So every politician’s website is filled with fluff and platitudes.
The problem is Fox News telling people what to think 24/7 in a way that they actually listen.
Honestly, The Daily Show and Colbert Report of around 2000-2015 were one of the best things this country had going for it, and we were hardly aware of it.
You’re right, the DNC should be working to expand voter protections and ensure that freedom is protected and it sucks they’re bought out by corps.
The Democrats have plenty of problems, but none of that compares to Republicans who are worse in every conceivable way. Propaganda, foreign interference, and domestic voter suppression won this for Trump and his goons.
I get the argument, but at this point, nobody is contemplating whether to vote Democrat or Republican. It’s between Democrat and apathy.
Comments like these sound as if during WWII the French were saying “well, the French army has plenty of problems, but Nazi German occupation is worse in every conceivable way, so there is no point criticising the French army”.
Everyone knows the Reps are Nazis. The problem with the Dems is not that they are not less bad than the literal Nazi party, but that they are unable to effectively fight the Nazi party. The problem is that Democrats fail to demonstrate that voting for them is better than not voting at all to a large part of the electorate.
The problem is that Democrats fail to demonstrate
And compounding that problem is people being angry at the Dems for this failure instead of trying to help.
“Clearly you’re not worth voting for because you can’t convince people to vote for you.” Great.
And compounding that problem is people being angry at the Dems for this failure instead of trying to help.
We should be as happy as you are that the only thing Democrats actually stood for in the past 4 years was Netanyahu.
“Clearly you’re not worth voting for because you can’t convince people to vote for you.” Great.
But it’s not that. It’s “please do something because you’re abandoning wide swathes of people and are going to lose, and lose our best chance against the fascists this way”.
The problem is that Dems don’t like progressives’ help, they would rather get help from Cheney than Sanders.
abandoning wide swathes of people
Because forgiving college debt and giving you $50k towards your first house and bringing prescription drug prices down is abandoning you? Fixing our rail system is abandoning you? Repeatedly saying they’re going to tax billionaires is abandoning progressives?
It’s not like we give them enough to have the power to actually get big things done. When we do give them a little, they have to bring in the vice president to break ties in the Senate.
In this regard, it’s not like Republicans wield power any better. They couldn’t even repeal the ACA. It’s just that they get more credit. First, they get credit for every Dem initiative they stop (even if it’s not real). The reverse isn’t true. Second, everything the Republicans do get done tends to be negative and stings more than the positives.
I know you want to abandon billionaire money. You want Dems saying the right things to you, in a closet where nobody hears them. Because if you don’t have money, you lose elections. Period. That’s a big problem that needs to be solved, but it can’t be solved by people who lose elections.
The Dems absolutely could have tried to appeal to the progressives more instead of moderates. Clearly, in hindsight, it’d be worth trying something different. But I doubt it would have worked. People weren’t happy, and they were going to take it out on the incumbent party. And right now they’d be hearing “why didn’t they appeal to moderates?”
My point is that it’s more complicated than just “appeal to progressives instead of moderates”. The Dems have more realities to deal with than we give them credit for.
Because forgiving college debt and giving you $50k towards your first house and bringing prescription drug prices down is abandoning you? Fixing our rail system is abandoning you? Repeatedly saying they’re going to tax billionaires is abandoning progressives?
Tax billionaires how? Any concrete plans? Any proposed laws that were brought to the floor as much as repealing Obamacare was by the ghouls?
And trying to win by forgiving student debt that they themselves made undischargeable as recently as 2005 is good, but it’s just trying to clean up after themselves. Unsuccessfully.
And giving $50k towards a first house, when houses are nearing a million is not going to do anything other than drive housing prices even further up. How much public housing have they built? Have they even proposed putting a tax on large-scale corporate homeownership or price gouging, houses sitting empty?
I’m not even going to mention Gaza.
But the elephant in the room, Joe Biden could have nominated anyone, literally anyone for AG. He nominated known conservative Merrick Garland, who then proceeded to let Trump go after 34 felony convictions and who knows how many hundreds of actual felonies, to become US president.
In this regard, it’s not like Republicans wield power any better. They couldn’t even repeal the ACA.
At least they tried. How many times have Democrats brought a vote to tax billionaires or megacorps, even if it failed, just to keep it on the table?
I know you want to abandon billionaire money. You want Dems saying the right things to you, in a closet where nobody hears them. Because if you don’t have money, you lose elections. Period. That’s a big problem that needs to be solved, but it can’t be solved by people who lose elections.
If money is more important than getting votes in order to win an election, then the US is not and has not been a democracy. That said, the Dems got all the money ever this election. Where is the win then?
The Dems absolutely could have tried to appeal to the progressives more instead of moderates. Clearly, in hindsight, it’d be worth trying something different. But I doubt it would have worked. People weren’t happy, and they were going to take it out on the incumbent party. And right now they’d be hearing “why didn’t they appeal to moderates?”
Has that ever happened? Once? Or has it been dozens of elections in a row, always appealing to “moderates” - actually wealthy donors - and leaving progressives to rot. And then blaming progressives for the election loss. Damn, Lina Khan, the one woman who was arguably doing her job well was possibly on the chopping block. How do you get people to vote for this?
The Dems have been the perfect Weimar to Trump’s Hitler. May they be remembered as “fondly” as them.
That said, the Dems got all the money ever this election. Where is the win then?
Why are you blatantly lying about this? Any chump can look at the wall of CEOs Trump has next to him for his victory speeches and see where the money was backing.
Thank you for this, it’s speaking exactly the unending frustration I have with these lines of “thought”.
The problem is that Democrats fail to demonstrate that voting for them is better than not voting at all to a large part of the electorate.
That’s where the propaganda and foreign influence come in. Their entire effort centered around muddying the waters so people couldn’t be sure what the reality was. And voter suppression certainly makes it easier for people to say fuck it.
Yes, there was foreign propaganda, influence, psyops, etc.
Look at Luigi. All of that propaganda failed to contain a very wide, bipartisan swathe of the population who was elated at the CEO’s death. Even more moderate people agreed that healthcare sucks even if they don’t like people, even murderers, gunned down in the street.
And Democrats still refuse to run on a platform of complete healthcare reform. And before you say “but Republicans would vote it down”, make them! Put it forward every week, every session, make a presidential run on it, make overreaching executive orders that fuck with insurance companies, forcing them to sue, every week. Have random low ranking Democrats make speeches about “well Luigi was in the wrong, but such things are inevitable in this system” to get in the papers with controversy. Just like Reps did it with the wall and other stupid stuff. Make it every week’s topic who exactly is standing in the way of establishing a proper healthcare system.
And there are other issues like that. Cost of living for example.
Fight, damnit, do something, or you will lose your country.
Do you remember Obamacare and Republicans voting to repeal it literally hundreds of times? Where did that get us?
And now we have less control of the government. We can’t even force a vote. The speaker can just refuse to allow it. There is no fight we can win. The best we can hope for is slowing the destruction.
There is no fight we can win. The best we can hope for is slowing the destruction.
This is the attitude whether we give Democrats a majority to squander or not.
And now we have less control of the government.
You are looking at solutions within the system. Those are not the only solutions. When the system is rotten, go around it.
There is no fight we can win if we acquiesce to the rules imposed on us by the oppressors. That has always been true throughout history. And yet progress is often made.
Until Trump won a second time, there was still a possibility of fixing this within the system. You may be right that there is no solution within the system now. Finding a solution outside the system will bring violence and suffering beyond anything most living people have experienced, so I’m not exactly eager to give up on other methods.
That’s my point. Instead of the Republicans voting hundreds of times to repeal it, Democrats should have been voting to expand it, anchoring the debate away from Reps. They should have thrown in a massive expansion, and forced a vote around that, again, hundreds of times.
This is not even going low, just fighting.
73 days. That’s how long the Dems held the filibuster-proof trifecta that allowed Obamacare in the first place. They haven’t had the power to force anything through since. It took everything they could do just to defend what little progress they made. The tactic you are talking about can’t work if the other side can just filibuster everything.
You’re exactly right. Instead of going on the offense the Dems just think “well this won’t pass so why bother?”
Meanwhile the Republicans are out here writing bills to give Trump a third term. Do you think the fact that it won’t pass matters one iota to them?
99% of the times Democrats fail to effect change, it’s for losing a vote that comes close to 50/50 - be it for presidents, senate representatives, etc.
People do not understand that their only quote-unquote “failing” is that we literally don’t give them power in any usable, reliable form, and that they don’t represent a hive mind.
I’m not criticising them for not having the votes, I’m criticising them for not writing and standing behind the bills in the first place.
There are three insane third Trump term bills already in Congress, where were the three Medicare for All or police reform, or anti-price gouging or tax reform bills in Congress days after Biden’s win? Or Obama’s win?
The Trump bills won’t pass, sure, but we are here and talking about them. Where were the Dems doing this?
A more concise way of putting it is that, if we’re going to resist and reject Trump, don’t expect meaningful help from the Democratic Party. That’s not what it is. Meet your neighbors. Organize at that level. If need be, form cells.
Exactly. Democrats ran on “vote for a Democrat to save Democracy!” Millions of voters shrugged and asked, “what good has democracy done for me?”
The problem is that a lot of people, also on here equate people saying that “this is going to alienate voters” with saying “this is going to alienate me”, and then go into personal attacks of “are Republicans better then?” or “you’re the problem because you don’t vote”.
No, the problem is and was that large swathes of the population that you don’t interact with won’t vote if you don’t give them something to vote for, as they don’t see Trump as the threat he is, since people’s opinions are saturated with the 24 hour news cycle. Point is “Trump bad”, while true, doesn’t win elections. You have to do something more, and the DNC is very much tending to do the bare minimum besides fundraising.
The problem is that a lot of people, also on here equate people saying that “this is going to alienate voters” with saying “this is going to alienate me”, and then go into personal attacks of “are Republicans better then?” or “you’re the problem because you don’t vote”.
Centrists only did that because in all cases, they supported the behavior that was alienating voters and didn’t want it to change. Even if that meant trump again.
I wouldn’t even say that, it’s just there really were a lot of trolls going “whatabout?”, especially here, as some people want the US to fall, and honestly Trump is the best candidate for that. Mix in a bunch of other trolls screaming “bluemaga” for the heck of it, and you couldn’t have a decent conversation anymore.
I’m just saying we shouldn’t fall into the trap of going into a circlejerk again, it’s past the election, it would be great to have the conversations that are needed but we couldn’t have before the election. There are some great people in the Dem party as well, again, Lina Khan’s work was inspiring, and despite recent events, it did make a huge difference. We need more people like her.
And on the other hand, Luigi has shown that there is a broad societal base wanting this constant madness to end. People just want to live, all people, even Republicans.
it’s past the election, it would be great to have the conversations that are needed but we couldn’t have before the election.
The “we can’t have this conversation right now” thing was a fucking excuse to continue enabling the genocide. Centrists will never admit they were horribly, monstrously wrong to support genocide.
It’s all they ever were, and all they will ever be.
My hypothesis is that voter suppression had a lot to do with it. Harris was no more of a crap candidate than Biden was in 2020. It’d be nice to see some solid research one way or the other.
I’m also with you on getting rid of triangulation, since the lack of principles it requires is almost as corrosive as fascism, and you end up with a party 1 mm to the left of whoever the fascist-du-jour might be. It’s a morally bankrout strategy that delivers next to nothing.
Harris was no more of a crap candidate than Biden was in 2020.
Biden was able to get away with it in 2020 coming off Trump’s first term and the shitshow that was COVID’s handling under his leadership. Harris didn’t have this benefit, being second in command in the incumbent regime, was unable to capitalize on any of the points the Biden administration could claim as wins, while stubbornly refusing to put any distance between him and herself on his unpopular stances. Add in that this was occurring while popular sentiment was clamoring for an inspiring campaign that wasn’t the usual DNC paint-by-numbers, march to the right campaign of, “Well, actually, while I can appreciate Hitler’s passion for the arts, animal welfare and the health risks of smoking, you’ll find that we, uh… disagree about the best way to deal with the Jewish question. Thank you, you’re seen and heard, even you Jews out there. Vote for me, 'cause the other guy’s Hitler, and I’m not entirely Hitler.”
The entire Democrat effort (or lack thereof) was a massive unforced error on their part. Instead, they keep sidelining any candidate who seems to actually excite people and inspire them with hope for the sort of systemic change they want, unless they find they can eventually drag them into their usual shenanigans.
Personally, I think they’d also do best to drop their tokenism with candidates that trot out the same means-tested policy drivel. Rather than go harder on the adjectives next time and hope people show up to vote for, “The candidate who would be the country’s first female, Chinese, Navajo, amputee, Leprauchan president in history,” have policies that don’t include the means-testing and would broadly lift up the working class and poor voters, while also addressing historic inequalities for the many groups that have been disadvantaged and/or excluded from US society for its history. You can tick all the diversity boxes you want with the candidates, but it’s patronizing to think people will blindly fall in line for such a candidate assuming they’ll represent them, when we’ve seen that it’s mere lip-service paid to very real issues impacting the lives of millions of Americans, which will be promptly forgotten upon taking office, if it lasts that long.
They didn’t campaign to the center, they campaigned to the right. It was incredible obtuse and stupid.
Biden barely squeaked into office on promises it became clear he was never going to even try to keep, and then Democrats proceeded to alienate a bunch of groups that voted for him. Groups that only voted for him reluctantly the last time.
I really hate that this is the top comment. Two things can be true at the same time. Dems messed up in the previous election and narrowly lost against the worst candidate to ever run for president,AND voter suppression is real and will become a much larger problem going forward. Under Trump, nothing is stopping Republicans from enacting voter suppression laws the likes of which you have never seen before. Trump won’t need to steal the election for his third term (yes he will run if he’s still alive!), because the states will do it for him by suppressing the votes.
Now you may think that you are protected from a third term by the constitution. You may think you are protected against things like poll taxes, tests etc. But do you honestly believe the SC is on your side?
The Dems messed up this election. Voter suppression will ensure that there will no longer be fair elections in the future.
You’re still worried about fair elections? The concept of elections is on the line right now. Setting up the fights on Panama, Greenland, and Canada, is about making sure the US won’t stand against Russia/China, and no one else is capable. At that point, there won’t be any more elections by the people. Just the oligarchs that agree with dear leader.
My only protection is that prevailing winds tend to put me upwind of likely nuclear targets for most of the year.
I beg of the Dems to please stop the cope and start making moves.
I’m never gonna stop sharing this
There’s this, and then there’s Sideshow Bob’s lines on the matter:
This has been in my head since 2016. I firmly believe that there really are people out there that find this kind of authoritarian rule comforting.
Conservatives have a heightened fear response so that tracks
