I replaced the TV Box from my ISP as well as the Media Player I already had for local media with a cheap mini-PC running Lubuntu and Kodi and have seen only a handful of adverts on my TV in the last couple of months (which I might see only when I’m watching Live-TV).
(PS: Mind you, there is no way to avoid Product Placement in Movies and TV Series, so I have still probably seen quite a lot of “covert” advertising).
The whole thing is now under my control and hence I don’t have to endure that crap.
Granted, I’ve been a Techie for decades and have for a long time been very aware of how software with Internet access is an agent of the software maker serving their objectives, not of yours serving your interests and how anything you paid for held by somebody else isn’t yours until you take them into Court for it and win (so your “bought” movies held in somebody else’s system aren’t yours) so I never jumped into the Streaming bandwagon and instead kept my eyepatch handy and wooden leg polished, and when I got a TV some years ago - before the enshittification really took off - I very purposefully avoided “smart” ones like the plague.
Frankly even if you’re not technically adept just get a Mini-PC and install LibreElec on it (which is purposefully made for non-Technical users to just to use Kodi) and get used to using Kodi. If you’re into paying for it you can even subscribe to perfectly legit IPTV subscriptions with hundreds of Live-TV channels and it definitelly integrates with the paid streaming services if you can’t do without and don’t want to sail the high seas.
(I’m running Lubunto, a more generalistic lightweight Linux distro where I explicitly installed Kodi, rather than LibreElec, because I use it for more things than just watching stuff on my TV).
PPS: Also, get a generic wireless remote of the kind used for Android TV (which works just as well in Kodi under Linux, as all those things do is send key-presses using the same USB protocol as keyboards), not the voice control crap with just a few “app” buttons but the ones which look like normal remotes. They often come with air-mouse functionality and a full mini-keyboard on the back, but one almost never has to use that even with Lubunto which is not really designed to be unobstrucive and will pop-up “update” prompts once in a while (I’m tempted to fix that, just like I fixed the need to explicitly log-in and start Kodi, but so far I can’t be arsed because it seldom happens)
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I’ve got one of these and since in my PC Kodi is running on top pretty much all of the time, it works as well as a dedicated remote on a dedicated media box.
The upsides are that as I said it just works as one expects a remote and whilst it is wireless, it also has an infrared emitter and 5 programmable buttons for it, so I also use it to turn ON/OFF my TV and sound bar.
The downsides are that the little keyboard on the reverse side is a bit awkward to use, especially if you need to type uppercase characters, special characters or numbers and the air mouse is a bit too finicky to use comfortably, both of which are extras beyond the normal remote functionality, so it’s no problem unless you expect to replace a keyboard + mouse or remote login once in a while for Linux maintenance tasks. Also this specific remote won’t, for who knows what reason (bug? stupid design decision?), work if the remote is slightly tilted, which is a bit of a downside of this model and, of course, it can’t actually turn your PC ON because it’s wireless with a USB dongle and the PC won’t read USB it’s not ON (though maybe it can work if one uses hibernate and keyboard wake-up, since the remote just looks like a Keyboard+Mouse device for the PC, but I haven’t tried it and since I just have that PC on all the time because it’s also a home server, I don’t really care)
It’s my understanding that when you press a button in the remote these things just send down the pipe a key-press of a letter matching the function of the button (so for example the menu button is ‘m’) and those letters just so happen to be the Kodi shortcut keys for those functions (I reckon these things are standardized rather than “coincidence”).
You can see in the recommendations on that page various other similar models. I reckon that as long as you avoid the “Voice command” stuff (which is tightly tied with Google Android) and go for a wireless remote which looks like it has a many buttons as a normal remote would, you’ll be fine. Keep in mind that traditional IR remotes won’t work for controlling something like a PC because the PC has no built-in IR receiver or software for support such a remote (normal IR remotes are pretty custom with different codes for different makers and even devices, rather than standardized as this one seems to be) hence the need to use a wireless one with a USB dongle (theoretically Bluetooth should also work).
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Honestly even a chromecast with Google tv and something like Stremio launched on boot would give you similar results for relatively cheap. No techiness needed, just some fiddling with settings.
I’ve heard the nvidia shield is/was the gold standard for this purpose
it’s not, they started the enshitification process years ago, I threw mine away. In the fucking garbage if you can believe it because it started showing me ads.
Well that sucks. I don’t particularly want google or amazon hardware on my network in any capacity, nor do I intend to provide network access to a “smart” TV. Guess that leaves AppleTV, maybe a couple other options, or dedicated media PC.
Huuuuuge price difference though.
Though I guess the chromecast is being killed off so the difference doesn’t matter much anymore.
Fair. Added benefit tho; it’s not a Google product.
Downside: it’s Nvidia and they’ve gone off the deep end into AI bullshit. Arguably went off the deep end several years ago into Crypto bullshit.
How sure are you that the Google software and hardware you’re recommending won’t be enshittified at some point, especially in light of Google’s behaviour in recent years?
Because one of the core guidelines in this new setup of mine was exactly to avoid software/hardware stacks from profit-driven companies were the temptation to “make it nice now, enshittify for maximum $$$ once there’s a good installed base” is very much present, hence I went all the way to a fully open source solution with an as generic as possible mini-PC (the fully generic PC, a self-made desktop, would not have looked as good in my living room and use way more power, whilst the mini-PC looks like it belongs there and has a 15W TDP).
I mean, my first try at changing my home media setup was actually getting an Android Media Box (which is much cheaper than a mini-PC), but the mini-PC plus Linux gives me total control over the entire software stack and a lot more than an Android Media Box does over the hardware stack (I can actually add more storage, expand the memory and even change the wireless support) without having to jump through the hoops of rooting an Android to get rid of all the crap (and not just he crap from Google - for example I didn’t want Netflix on the fancy starting menu of the Android box and yet if I uninstalled it, the pretty picture for it would still be there using space whilst not actually working) which is not exactly non-techie friendly and might not even be possible (I do believe it is possible for the Chromecast, though).
Android is an inferior solution if you want to avoid enshittification and are not all that technically proeficient, though if you don’t care about being forced by the software on your own hardware into shit you don’t want (such as watching ads) it is the technically simplest option, but then again that scenario is just enduring the kind of abuse that the post is talking about, and my advice is not at all for people who are fine with ads and other “product promotions” (such as pre-installed software supporting services you have to pay for) shoved in front of them even in their own home and their own hardware.
Whilst I didn’t go for the fully integrated Linux+Kodu solution which is LibreElec and instead went for a self-made Lubuntu + Kodi solution because I have lots of experience with Linux and wanted to do more with that device than just “media box”, my expectation is that a single-purpose packaged solution like LibreElec on top of a mini-PC together with the kind of remote I mentioned above is the simplest “just works” option: so accessible to non-techies and without enshittification or a risk of future enshittification.
Do I trust them? No. In fact I’m blocking software updates under the assumption they’ll fuck something up. But I’m using an alternative start app, and a button remapper for the remote.
It’s stupid simple, and the chances of breaking are slim. It’s also cheap, and relatively easy to upkeep. There’s also the added benefit of it being an all in one consumer product, so the user experience is typically seamless, something I wasn’t able to achieve with a box running Kodi last I attempted it.
I’m not claiming it’s the best choice, but if you’re dealing with normies or a remote situation where you’re mailing off an item? 100% I’d prefer a device like a chromecast.
Since at one point in the near future I’ll be shopping for a TV, is there such a thing as a good quality panel TV that is dumb? I intend to hook it up to a PC or a set top box. Alternatively, is there a smart TV that can be easily bootloader unlocked and rooted without consequences (similarly to how a Pixel phone can)? I realise this is even more niche than unlocking/rooting a phone, but still, someone might have ideas.
My LG OLED TV can be configured to load directly into a HDMI input. I keep it disconnected from wifi at all times. I never see the smartTV OS. It’s probably the best option because OLED panels are the best current display technology.
I use an AppleTV as an external media box for all my needs. But the same would apply for an Android box or HTPC setup etc.
I’m still a bit concerned about OLED - my main gripes being 1) the potential for burn in and 2) the somewhat limited maximum brightness. Still, thanks for the suggestion.
I just bought a smart TV, updated the software, and disconnected it from the Internet, only allowing it access to our local Plex server. No ads and no stupid suggestions. It’s great.
You could also try this, apparently.
Not available in all markets
Oh, that’s clever! Definitely bookmarking that for future reference.
Anyone have a non-Spez link?
Might be cheaper than a purposedly dumb TV nowadays too, despite the receiver. It’s ridicolous.
Try a Spectre t.v. they’re made for digital signage. I got one and hooked it up to a media server.
Seems promising, but also seems to be an US thing. I should’ve mentioned I’m in the EU.
Ah, my bad. Sorry.
They seem to be consumer grade, but dumb. Does someone here have one? How are the refresh rates? Can I play FPS games with at least 60hz on it?
I have one. It’s 4k, which gave me some trouble from an Ubuntu media server, and the refresh rate is ~144, I believe. It cost me something like 300-400 USD.
Awesome, then I’ll probably get one. Thank you!
It’s also 60", which is absurdly large to me lol. Glad I could help, though.
It was maybe 7 years ago now, but I bought a dumb Sceptre TV and it still works great. Was only $300 at the time.
Scepter televisions are a great option, no “smart” features at all. Bought two of them about 6 years ago and no issues.
Get a non-consumer TV if you can. They’re more expensive but are actually built to last, have way more features and you can swap in whatever compute board you want so you’re not stuck with an underpowered Android TV board.
I’m very interested in this. Any suggestions as far as specific models to look at, or where to source one without needing a fancy business vendor connection? Maybe a trustworthy review site to compare some options?
I’ve not looked into it much other than seeing it in this video by Jeff Geerling and making a mental note for next time I’m in the market for a TV but it may be of interest to you.
I’m sorry I can’t provide more details than that, but it’s basically a digital signage TV designed to run 24/7 for years, and as such is actually built without the absolute bargain basement parts that go into consumer units.
3000 dollars
Guess I’ll continue to use my old computer and an hdmi connection to a physically Wi-Fi disabled smart tv. I understand why it costs what it does but fuck.
Mine is a monitor and nothing more.
Literally came here to say that. HDMI is king!
DisplayPort is superior
Definitely, but unfortunately TV’s don’t usually have DP.
Any TV can have DP if you watch the right videos.
Bonus points for buying a smart TV to get the heavily discounted price and never connecting it to the internet.
Even then, you’re still having to wait for its CPU to fuck around with the image and sound before it actually outputs it,
Some of the brands have been reported to not allow you to do anything until it has an internet connection to do its “initial setup” (or some such excuse).
I hope I can find a list of which ones to avoid when I have to eventually replace my old dumb TV.
Then right back to the store it goes and labelled as defective so it gets tossed resulting in losses for all companies involved.
Of course, but that’s a lot more effort than it should be.
I don’t have a TV. I have a beamer as a screen for my PC, playing media with Kodi from my NAS, which runs Radarr (for movies) and Sonarr (for series) to download using usenet. I don’t have to give consent for the stupid agreements from streaming services, I’m not limited by them either, I don’t have to pay 10 different services to see everything I want. I pay for usenet, VPN and indexers. My VPN (Proton) blocks ads, trackers and malware. I watch YouTube using the Grayjay app (including sponsor block). I live ad free. I have more rights, freedom and access by piracy then I would have by paying those fucked up companies.
I don’t want to pirate, I want an honest transaction where I pay just money so I would own the content I bought. Instead I have to pay money, agree to have no rights, give all my personal information which they are free to sell, all for limited access to watch content I do not own. Fuck that. Piracy it is.
Whenever I see an honest company providing a decent service, I gladly give them my money. Even if it’s kind of expensive. They deserve to exist. I gladly pay for quality. Like Proton for example. Larian studios, I wish I could give them more money. They deserve every penny I payed for baldur’s gate 3, I even bought the useless deluxe pack just because they deserve it. It Takes Two is a game I pirated. It is so good, I wanted to purchase it to support the devs. It was on sale, so I waited for the sale to end before purchasing it. Sadly it’s not on GoG so I still do not own it, because with Steam you just pay for access to a game you do not own.
I only pirate to avoid asshole companies and ads. I do not wish to pirate, I feel forced to do so.
My TV burned out a few months ago and we got a cheap vizio. We stream everything from another device so maybe that’s the solution, but I haven’t seen any of these ads.
Average users will not have the knowledge or patience for work arounds.
Imo, the larger problem seems to be the majority of users appear to be fine with ads and data collection just to watch a movie or series.
Imo, the larger problem seems to be
the majority of users appear to be fine with ads and data collectiona lax and ineffective regulation.“Voting with your wallets” is a false premise dreamed up by corporate to avoid govt regulation and has not and will never be a real thing that works in this world of monopoly and lack of option.
I think the best motive now is to stop paying altogether.
You can either vote with your wallet or do nothing…
Working people have no way to lobby government, shortage of a revolution, real people make decisions for benefit of other real people.
NPCs are just here to enrich them both.
You can either vote with your wallet or do nothing
I don’t want to fight here, we agree. In fact i bet we agree on a lot. But VWYW is, i can not stress this enough, not a thing. If it ever was in our lifetimes, it ain’t now. Its time the phrase was dropped outta everyone’s mouth.
You can purchase something that thru your effort does not do most of the awful things you are trying to avoid, that’s being a smart customer. It’s not like I’m dismissing the entire idea behind VWYW, just that it is simply that now, it’s an idea that doesn’t work with the facts on the ground.
The power of our “wallet ballots” gets lower when Monopoly power gets higher. Monopoly power is very high. VWYW power is in this world, in this moment, not a thing.
My point, is a simple but strident one. VWYW is not voting! It just isn’t.
It has absolutely no effect on the world around us. Puts no pressure on companies. Is not a thing except in our heads. It is time to let go of the idea.
And yeah…working people like you and me have no power period. “Voting with your wallet” is now simply a power fantasy pushed by capitalists to keep regulations at bay and held by the powerless clinging to an illusion of agency.
I don’t agree but you can either vote with your wallet or mindlessly consume.
One is better than the other but yeah 80% of spending is not really discretionary… Gonna need to get a rental, gonna need healthcare, transports education etc
But you can stop drinking soda for example… It ain’t much but it is something.
People don’t have to pay subscriptions either…
I … think i understand what you’re saying. You don’t agree with my definition of VWYW? I don’t wanna assume, but i think maybe you define it as reckless vs thoughtful spending?
Mine has to do with the effectiveness of our purchases in driving market trends. They do not.
You don’t have to buy a subscription to Netflix, but deciding not to isn’t changing anything for anyone (besides saving you 15 bux).
After nearly three years of price increases, signs that buyers have had enough are starting to mount. On Thursday, the food and beverage giant PepsiCo reported a 0.5 percent decline in revenues in the second quarter in its Frito-Lay snack business from year-ago levels, a result of a 4 percent drop in volumes in the category.
I think maybe we voted with our wallets against $6 chips but you could probably convince me otherwise in a paragraph :)
Well sir I’m always down for a nice discussion, you had me at hello. But youre in trouble if you only wanted a paragraph 🤣
Your link is great evidence to your point. It absolutely does reinforce the idea, with evidence that voting with your wallet does indeed affect change. I should say also my point isnt VWYW doesn’t ever work but that it has very little power.
I’d like to suggest that same article also helps mine, at least some.
Point being it shows VWYW (at the consumer level) didn’t have the power to stop the inflation of chips in the first place. Leaving aside the illusion of choice, the current system has taken the power of VWYW out of our hands almost completely.
The fact that PepsiCo even has that kind of market power is beyond question at this point right?
I’m not saying anything controversial if i take it further, that supply chains between our bag of chips and Pepsico, (distributors, grocery stores etc) are also consolidated, yeah?
At each step of the process, market consolidation reduced the ability of the companies within that chain to VWTW, and they pass the costs on down to the next link who also has no ability to VWTW. At the end of this chain we sit with our wallets, but the power has been diminished before we got to open them. Just like the lesser evil, VWTW becomes a choice of voting between ALL chips that cost more across the board or no chips at all.
That’s what i mean when i say VWYW in this system, at this time, is meaningless.
It only works in competition which we don’t have for the most part.
Instead we have the illusion of choice through multiple brand product names. There’s a couple choices, sure, but few enough to function as an effective monopoly.
I notice OP said
This world of monopoly
And you agreed with him, but I’d like to point out you’re talking about one country
Monopolies are really really bad for consumers and are strictly regulated in modern countries
Your average user would also never be on lemmy to see this, at least for now.
They’re not “fine with ads and data collection” so much as they don’t care and can’t be bothered to look for a better way.
It’s just apathy and a bit of lazy inertia.
they don’t care and can’t be bothered to look for a better way.
This implies they are fine with it by tacit agreement.
No, it implies that they don’t understand that there is an option.
Yeah that’s well put. All this advocacy for adblockers and not accepting the awful state of things fall on deaf ears, most people don’t care, they accept the state of things as it is, and technology as magic.
People deserve better and should expect/demand better.
But that’s the thing. To play the devil’s advocate:
Should expect/demand better
Should they? Says who? Us - who to most people are - “weird computer people” for knowing how to navigate an excel spreadsheet?
We know it sucks. But they’re entitled to think it’s fine, especially since we’ve made so much noise about this for the past decade that it’s hard to imagine anyone is uneducated still.
“Liberating” the masses in this manner seems like a crusade up the alley of Don Quixote.
Oh man, I’d hate to be the dude twiddling his thumbs on Ad 2 of 8 on Twitch.
“Dum de dum dum, wonder what the streamer is currently up to. Oh well, another 45 seconds to go. Dum de dum dum”
and i bet if most users would not put up with that, they would remove hdmi ports.
Didnt noticed ads on youtube with smarttube https://smarttubeapp.github.io/ or https://github.com/polymorphicshade/Tubular ;)
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There is a certain unfortunate irony in the realization that one of the easiest ways to avoid this kind of thing is to buy a commercial digital signage panel intended for advertising instead of a consumer TV.
My cheap projector doesn’t have 4k, but it also doesn’t have ads
My phone is a billboard. My TV is a billboard. My PC is sometimes a billboard.
Like, what hasn’t advertisement infected?
I think it’s about time we just harass marketers back, but not with advertisements, but with other means. Enough so they get the message.
“We estimate we can sell up to 80% of an individual’s visual field before inducing seizures.” ~Nolan Sorrento
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if your screens are showing you ads then they aren’t your screens…
Ironically the billboards in my town seem to be disappearing due to lack of use.
The billboards are the only thing that aren’t billboards.
“each new connected TV platform user generates around $5 per quarter in data and advertising revenue.”
Fuck me, this is the amount of money that’s enough motivation for them to ruin my experience and make me angry?
I guess regular users have much higher tolerance to ads than me, but our home has a strict zero ad policy.
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That was the sentence that stuck out to me the most in the whole article as well. Incredible how much is lost for so little. I imagine it’s like drug dealers though, maybe $5 for the first seller, then gets chopped up and cut again and sold for less and chopped up again…
My question is, what are the alternatives? Other than finder older TVs without so much junkware and spyware, Are there open OS ROMs that can be loaded? Cracked firmware or debloated ROMs? I was very into Android’s launch 15 years ago and rode a train of options away from terrible stock ROMs from various OEMs; eventually privacy and simplicity becomes a selling point for OS after companies get through enshittifying it.
My question is, what are the alternatives? Other than finder older TVs without so much junkware and spyware, Are there open OS ROMs that can be loaded? Cracked firmware or debloated ROMs? I was very into Android’s launch 15 years ago and rode a train of options away from terrible stock ROMs from various OEMs; eventually privacy and simplicity becomes a selling point for OS after companies get through enshittifying it.
I’d like for us all to stop for a moment and appreciate just how thoroughly and comprehensively fucked up it is that Linux, which is what all these TVs are running and which is supposed to be Free Software (which exists for the express purpose of empowering the user’s right to control his device), has been subverted so goddamn badly!
Wow had no idea TVs ran on Linux. They should pull the license.
They should, but they won’t. Between Torvalds’ (wrong) opinion and the logistical issues of getting approval from all the other copyright holders, the Linux kernel will remain vulnerable to tivoization in perpetuity.
“commercial display” is a worth while route to explore. They do cover a wider range of image quality and features, so it does take paying close attention to specifications.
Be cautious with the commercial display route. A lot of them come with “management system” software the company is trying to push which can paywall control features or break things on you if they get online for firmware updates.
In general though they do make good displays: they are typically a lot more expensive (and heavy!)
If a company could pay $5 a customer for a competitive edge in customer satisfaction over their competitors, they would. Either they are getting way more than that or there is some cartel/monopoly action going on in the market. Maybe they are playing the long game to introduce an ad free model at a premium.
Still don’t see how nobody is undercutting existing players with ad free, smart tvs.
Why is basic math.
In a made up scenario let’s start with a dumb 50"ish TV. That cost them around $100 to build. Add in another $50 for shipping and distribution fees. It’s at the store for $150 cost. If they set the price at $400. There is $250 dollars of profit to share between the store and the manufacturer. The manufactuerer likely gets under $100.
Now for a smart TV the revenue stream looks different. First their costs only go up by a few dollars for adding the “smart” chips. So let’s say $155 cost. Then they collect revenue from the streaming providers to be supported by their smart TV say $30 per set. Then they collect the $20 per set per year in user data collected. So if they price the smart TV the same as the dumb one they generate $95 from the sale of the set.
So the profit from a dumb TV is $100 at he point of sale.
The profit from a smart TV is $225+ in a constant revenue stream over 5 years.
And this is why we see so much advertising for smart TV’s as being the best thing.
I’ve heard somewhere else that it’s a 50/50 split between the TV sales and ad revenue
Roku is selling televisions at a loss with the intent on injecting ads based on whats on screen including detecting when you pause a show/game and injecting ads
Patient Pending…
A quick check online says that Samsung–which has about 25% of the global market–sold at least 1M OLED televisions and 8.3M QLED televisions in 2023. So, let’s say that they sell 9.5M televisions annually (I’m not sure if the numbers are global or US-only); that’s $190M in pure profit from advertising alone. For a billion-dollar plus corporation, that might seem small, but it’s certainly enough to get them to take notice.
That’s just 1 year’s sales. If the TV lasts 5 years it’s raking in 5 times the data. 190M x 5 = 950M/year, and 5 seems conservative.
Good point.
Samsung is also trying to make its ACR data more valuable for ad targeting, including through a deal signed in December with analytics firm Experian.
This should add to their profits.
Experian, the
social credit scorecredit rating company? FuuuuuckExperian has a program where you connect your bank account and they monitor transactions for things that could improve your credit by a couple points. I’m sure they’re not also harvesting the rest of your data to use in their analytics, right?
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My jaw dropped when I saw that. Not sure how many people are aware if it.
That deserves to be its own headline. Something like “consumer electronics companies now conspiring with credit rating companies to surveil the public even more invasively.”
It’s even better for them: those $190M are per-year for the lifetime of that TV.
So if for simplification we said they also sold 9.5M TVs in 2021 and again in 2022, in the year of 2024 the will be making $570M from the TVs they sold in 2021, 2022 and 2023.
If Samsung TVs are used in average for 10 years, in 2033 they will still be making money from TVs sold in 2024 and all the years in between. If their rate of sales remains 9.5M per year and how much they generate per quarter in data and advertising revenue from those TVs remains $5 (true, all big simplifications), by 2033 they will be making $1.90 BILLIONS from just this in addition to what they make from selling TVs.
No wonder they’re full in on this monetization of users even whilst making user experience significantly worse - they would need to lose a huge number of sales due to this for it to not be worth it for them.
i for one cannot wait for this future
Have you guys started the new season of oww my balls?
Fun fact: Idiocracy came out the same year Google bought YouTube.
I went to a buddy’s house to watch TV and that’s how his Xbox Live looks like.
Like they’re so oblivious and he’s paying for that shit.
*Start menu in windows 11
… both Microsoft products … weird.
Huh? Watching TV on his Xbox live? It definitely didn’t look like that
With that level of ads, they should get paid to watch it.
Best we can do is 5 minutes worth of additional in-game currency
Shut up and drink your verification can
Has it got electrolytes?
I only connect to internet if my tv needs an update. Generally hardware inside TVs are super slow too.
Do I have Nvidia shield connected that been debloated with a simple launcher, which is connected to my router that’s running a VPN + DNS filter.
lol not for me, i don’t connect it to the internet
