These are people ostracized from less extreme groups. The only places they find acceptance is with people like them, leading to an echo chamber where the most insane ideas can fester and grow. I think the solution to the issue of having extremists among us is to do the hardest imaginable thing and accept them into our communities and keep it positive and short when correcting things. “I hope that kind of thing doesn’t hurt a lot of people.” Or whatever. We’re silly animals who will do anything to be accepted by our chosen group including learning to think differently.
Yes, but boundaries are extremely important if you’re going to do it. 100% agree that people become extremists in the first place because an extremist group welcomed them with open arms when no one else would. But you run the risk of falling into the tolerance paradox…under no circumstances should anyone’s intolerance be tolerated.
Yeah if you welcome them in you run into them radicalizing normies. The alt right playbook is an extremely useful primer on modern right wing rhetoric even today
Great point but I don’t know if we should keep that hard and fast rule. Please discuss with me but I think intolerance might have to only be chided and not outright rejected in order for change to occur. You don’t invite a Nazi into your house and pretend genocide is okay but if you’re trying to change them you can’t kick them out when they express insane views or we’re back to square one because they will say unacceptable shit. Don’t tolerate it but don’t exorcise them from your space unless you’re doing it for yourself right?
To narcissists any attention is good attention.
The funny thing is how … not even far… rather how crazy IMHO it seem to have gone.
I like reading conservative stuff; I like being challenged in my opinions and thinking…
But browsing through r/conservative was an effing joke - all woo and no substance
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My question is why are they so mad about banning X links?
Because it harms Nazi daddy Elon
The bar for “meme” is apparently underground, lol.
Its good to have differing perspectives. Your not always gonna get it right.
We should murder and eat children.
People have been doing that for millennia
I think you guys need to define what is the species of the “juveniles” in question
I said ‘kids’ you would have a point but nobody calls baby goats or other young non-human animals ‘children’.
Eggs are delicious.
I never said anything about the other perspective being valid. However, without the exposure to other perspectives you may not be able to realize if one is wrong or right.
Do you think we need nazi propaganda to be posted so that people can argue against it?
Propaganda by who’s standards and definition? Whats propaganda to you is not to them and whats propaganda to them is not to you
That’s quite the modest proposal there. The real question, and this determines whether I think you are truly a good person, or the wretched scum who believe what I don’t, is are you pre or a post-birther?
A little oxidation of the meat is what give the perfect texture to the meat, I think. Anyone who says otherwise is just saying they’re refined, while drinking iced tea with their pinky finger extended.
All children are post birth! They aren’t children until they have gasped their first breath.
Well if I don’t have it right, they get it even less.
Helping people get off of corporate social media is significantly more important to me than maintaining Lemmy’s political identity.
Hopefully the fediverse can serve as a deradicalizing force for these reactionary newcomers. However it is interesting that they would want to use federated social media over corporate social media, given their worldview idolizing the market and meritocracy.
Off topic, but downvotes are not always an indication that a comment is of low quality.
Meh. Lemmy is for them too, even if they are outnumbered.
They can go to Reddit or x or one of the many other services the conservatives own. They should have a miserable time existing outside their walled safe spaces until they decide to stop being evil filth.
Truth social is hurting for members.
Based and equality of opportunity pilled.
Does…does it have to be?
Depends. Do you believe in freedom of speech and freedom of opinion? Do you want the Fediverse to be an open, decentralized protocol?
I believe in freedom of speech from the government. I do not believe in freedom of opinion. Some opinions are bad, and people should be made to feel bad for having them.
Free and welcoming are two extremely different things. I want conservatives to be free to come to Lemmy, I do not want conservatives to be welcome to come to Lemmy.
fascists and their sympathizers (also fascists) should not feel comfortable in polite company. I am saying this very diplomatically.
There is a social contract, and those who break the social contract are not protected by its rules. Fascists don’t treat people with respect and deserve none in kind. Because respect is a two-way street.
If a Nazi sits down at a table and nobody objects, you have a table full of Nazis.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
ngl I dont wanna be somewhere where furries or conservartives are the main audience, we gotta have a middle ground lol
It’s like a zoo exhibit
Better to have their bs called out with sources I suppose
Surely evidence will sway them. They probably just haven’t ever encountered it before!
Haha. For a few, honestly yeah. But most, probably not. But I think it’s important to have that hand reached out for those who finally begin to question the ocean of misinformation they’ve been swimming in for decades. Others are just fascist.
it’s often really tough to ‘logic’ someone out of a position they ‘emotion-ed’ their way into.
I kinda want them here so they can be exposed to leftist ideas and become thigh-high wearing, Linux using furries.
But that’s probably just me huffing hopium
“I can fix them…” ~Common thought in an abusive relationship
It’s not going to work, at best they see themselves as a “missionary” whose purpose is to convert us from our “ways” and they’re not going to allow themselves to be converted.
It’s not going to work
Of course it would, at least for some of them… You can’t seriously believe that people cannot change their minds, especially conservatives, who often only have their views because of living in a bubble.
whose purpose is to convert us from our “ways”
Let them try. Let them actually lay out and present their twisted worldview. And if you don’t want to see it or hear about it, fine, block their space. It’s much more likely that they will change than it is for a leftist to change because the vast majority of leftists are actually familiar with the right and their believes. The other way around is generally a different story…
I’ve found it to be ineffective, sure some do “see the light”, but is it worth it?
Time and time again I see others lay out (not just here but on Reddit, TT, Xitter, Nextdoor and everywhere else) for conservatives evidence, graphs, good sources, scientific studies, hard numbers, video and photos, well structured arguments that are short, medium and long on length and much much more.
And what are they nearly always met with? That’s just fake news, lies by the deep State, “AI”, biased news!, Lefty propaganda, demoncrat LIEESSS, LIBTURDS etc.
Conservatives do change. Exposure is key. We’re where we are at because the rich have isolated us in echo-chambers. Speaking as a former conservative whose entire family across 3 generations shifted to the left. I caution your thinking they’re a lost cause.
It’s less about an abusive relationship and getting them therapy.
Some can and do, increasingly we’re in an age where conservativism is a dogma akin to a religion (and often entwined with it, of course) and that won’t change. I don’t think we need to shun all conservatives but we need to have a low tolerance for them if they don’t show that inclination. Being conciliatory to these people, by and large, is what has gotten us to this point
There’s a difference between being conciliatory and letting them exist in the space. They should be called out whenever they do something wrong/stupid. They should also be allowed to exist here and we should try to correct them. We don’t need to pretend they’re correct or reasonable. We just need to expose them to different ideas that they wouldn’t otherwise see.
I never said they should be immediately booted from the space, but talking to them - exposing them to ideas - is what got us to where we are now. “Oh, it’s such an echo chamber, that’s bad, everyone needs to be exposed to differing ideas”. The majority do not care, they’re willing to pretend to listen to ideas just so they can call you a slur and parrot their own talking points. They should be minimally engaged with and shunned unless they’re willing to meet a minimum standard of decorum, because nothing else has worked
Right… But it’s the answer an echo chamber? Is that what you want?
What I want, what we all should want, is for the opposing party to at least come to the table with a) defensible positions e.g. I think we should spend our taxes on Y because X NOT “Trans are icky and need to be silenced” something akin to the (facade) of conservatives of ol’
And b) come to the table with at least an open mind
I don’t see any of that happening with conservatives nearly all the time and I have never seen anyone change a conservatives mind anywhere online. Like I said in another reply, I see it all the time, people on the left do engage with them. Presenting hard data, graphs, solid good sources, well structured arguments in all manner of lengths, all to be hand waved away by the Excuse of the Day™️
Once I was in a Reddit thread (might be Lemmy) awhile back where an expert deprogrammer had chimed in, according to them the only real way (their actual post was much more detailed, I wish I could find it again) to get to a conservative was IRL, through various means that boiled down to (heavy paraphrasing) reconnecting them with a “sense of belonging” in their local community. I specifically asked them how one could do it online, and was told that it’s essentially a fools errand.
And now trying on conservatives I know IRL, they were right, it’s fucking hard even when you have direct IRL access
There is simply too much disassociation online.
Careful I been banned for saying stuff like this.
No you haven’t. You were banned for being a giant troll.
A big salty tear… It’s not my fault sometimes people are to dumb to understand humor and exist in a triggering rage state.
Right, so… you will never be guilty of trolling so long as it is others that are “dumb” and “triggered.” Words never found in a troll’s lexicon.
Additionally, isn’t it a bit convenient how this little rule of yours seems to dismiss you of any responsibility for your actions?
Define trolling, does it mean having a different opinion than you?
It’s like people playing game online. It’s always hackers why they lost. It’s never something to do with themselves.
You were banned because of the actions you took. Accept responsibility and internalize it. Maybe you can improve as a person. Blaming it on someone else only ensures you’ll always be wrong, but you’ll never realize it. You’ll just be shunned by everyone and think it’s everyone else’s fault.
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They are not conservatives because they haven’t “heard the good word”, to borrow a phrase. Decades of pop culture and daily life have delivered the message that you should be a decent person, accept differences, treat others with the respect and dignity, and help those in need. They grew up exposed to those messages in movies, tv, comic books, and from their teachers, families, and mentors. They chose to disregard or actively oppose those messages. And they choose to keep doing it every day. They are just broken people. They are disgusted by those notions. They want to rid those messages from media and public discourse altogether. That’s what all the anti-woke shit is. A rejection of decency, acceptance, and the desire to fix injustices. I don’t have patience or the time in the day to read their bad faith self-righteous bullshit opinions that are both wrong on the face of it, and usually divorced from reality entirely. Fuck em.
They are not conservatives because they haven’t “heard the good word”, to borrow a phrase
In many ways I agree, but it also always depends on where they are in their journey and how much curiosity they have left. At a minimum their communities serve as a communication test bed. For example, I like to watch some flat earth de-bunkers on YouTube. Nothing they say is new to me, but its good to see how a better worded person breaks the idea down. Its like the Ben Shapiro “sell your house” meme; it sounds right for the first 10s. Sure I would sell my house and leave. Even when you know that is wrong it might not be clear how to break down the idea or what the fallacy being used is. You are right that the argumentative bad faith takers are not going to change their mind, but they are irrelevant. There will be lurkers who are curious about truth who may be deconstructing; that is who I believe the audience is around this.
Maybe someone should create a [email protected] for that.
And yet… It only takes the right people. The little of substance are often those people. We either fight, or we risk failure at this stage.
This is the way.
Once we convert all the conservative morons, I forsee a utopian socialist society where everyone is without gender, without rhetoric, without hate, food and shelter is free for all, money is no longer a pursuit, scientific progress for the good of all life is the only goal, oh and everyone wears pajamas and long-legged patterned socks (Unix socks): so basically a Star Trek society.
Dem socks go from foot to pip.
You can block them (:
Oh, I do. No worries
Are you really so unsure of your beliefs that you don’t welcome scrutiny? Toughen up, my friend.
Nah, I’m just old enough I don’t have time to waste debating people who come to me in bad faith, and I’ve met too many conservatives who did that.
Well, yes, in that it’s an inherent part of the fediverse. Instances can curate what they host, but even if .world and .ee removed their communities, they’d just move onto the next instance until they find one that will tolerate them.
You can block communities, though, luckily.
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They’re absolutely free to spin up their own Lemmy instances. However, that doesn’t mean other instances have to host their comms or federate with their misinformation spreading instances
I’d defederate, don’t want that content on my instance. And my users don’t, either.
It’s just wild the takes I find whenever I stumble on one of these communities. Just no humanity
They absolutely are incapable of believing they are wrong at all. Every solution that includes them being correct or in the right are the only viable ones and everything else is a trick, or a lie, or “buzzword here”. They are conspiracy theorists and suffer the same deep logical failings.
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Their shit shows up when sorting by new Sherlock,
I want them here so I can call them chuds and help them feel outraged and offended. Fuck their cult of personality bullshit.
Waaah waaah, Lemmy is a lefty ecochamber propaganda machine waaah waaah
What’s funny about people who say this, is they’re implying we’d have a better balanced perspective if we just accepted some Naziism into our lives.
Left = introvert altruism. Right = extravert egoism.
Do you really perceive there to be nothing in between ‘leftism’ and Nazi? That extremes are all that exist? That the only people who aren’t a fan of one kind of echo chamber are those who want it to be a different kind of echo chamber?
Do you really perceive there to be nothing in between ‘leftism’ and Nazi?
Sure, but they’ve become irrelevant because there’s not enough of them.
In America right now the only factions that matter are the left and what are swiftly revealing themselves to be actual fucking Nazis/Fascists and their enablers, who, by extension, are fucking Nazis/Fascists.
If you’re not left, you’re wrong.
Despite popular belief among ideologues of all stripes, sanctimony and virtue are not the same thing.
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Unironically, since rightwing ideology generally requires basing your worldview on traditional values, which where based on flawed beliefs that where since disproven.
Hey i’m just the guy that’s anti-Nazi. You must be the other guy.
Something tells me those comms are a place for tankies to go mask-off and enjoy just being who they really are.
Stethoscope theory is fucking CRUSHING the classification of these cretins.
