Vincent Oriedo, a biotechnology scientist, had just such a question. What lessons have been learned, he asked, from Harris’s defeat in this vital swing county in a crucial battleground state that voted for Joe Biden four years ago, and how are the Democrats applying them?
“They did not answer the question,” he said.
“It tells me that they haven’t learned the lessons and they have their inner state of denial. I’ve been paying careful attention to the influencers within the Democratic party. Their discussions have centred around, ‘If only we messaged better, if only we had a better candidate, if only we did all these superficial things.’ There is really a lack of understanding that they are losing their base, losing constituencies they are taking for granted.”
“We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests. They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs.”
Speaking of the Democrats setting themselves up for failure, if the Gaza ceasefire holds Trump will take care for it and Michigan will likely be solid red for at least a generation, not unlike Florida after Obama improved relations with Cuba.
To think that trump orchestrated or built that ceasefire is complete bullshit
Y’all give those arabs too much credit in Michigan
Americans do think foreign politics are controlled completely by the American president.
When in reality, the president can only do as he pleases when there’s a genocide to outfit.
Maybe that will happen. But I think it’s far more likely that Trump will end the genocide by letting Netanyahu finish it. And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims, since he’s certainly not going to protect them from his followers. He’ll probably egg them on.
That said, Biden could have at least pretended to care about Gaza, and didn’t, so a lot of Michigan voters are pretty fed up with the Democrats, and maybe they’ll throw their support wholeheartedly behind the Republicans. I don’t see how that will get them anything they want, but they wouldn’t be the first, and they won’t be the last, group of voters who steadfastly vote against their own self interest.
And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims
Unlike last time, Democrats aren’t going to be able to credibly pretend that they have American Muslims’ backs.
That’s true. But the Republicans certainly won’t either. The Democrats haven’t earned American Muslims’ trust, but to run into the arms of the party that loudly and constantly demonizes Muslims at every opportunity as a result makes no sense.
I would understand a lot of people in Michigan disengaging from politics (although that would probably objectively make their lives worse in the long run). I can’t see them supporting Republicans though.
The Democrats haven’t earned American Muslims’ trust,
Over the past year or so, they’ve gone out of their way to earn Muslims’ distrust.
by letting Netanyahu finish it
That seems kinda unrealistic, no?
Roughly 50,000 (perhaps upwards of 70k) Palestinians have been killed in a little over a year, and if anything, the rate is slowing. The population of Gaza and the West Bank sums to about 5,000,000. The growth rate in 2022 was conservatively 1.75%. That amounts to 87,500 new people every year.
Even when you factor in Israel targeting hospitals and food to try to hurry the genocide along, it’d still take decades, if ever.
Just gonna say that the numbers you’re using are direct casualties. When you include indirect casualties, such as the people who died to famine or disease due to conditions caused by the war you get numbers upward of 200k.
Counting deaths alone in Gaza and the West Bank ignores all the Palestinian refugees that have been forced to leave Palestine altogether; in either case, Israel wants to settle the rest of Palestine to cement their claim to it and control over it.
Ahh good point, it looks to be more of a 6% reduction in population if you include the 100k+ who’ve left.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/1/16/israel-hamas-ceasefire-whats-left-of-gaza-and-its-people
I’m certainly not denying that Israel’s intent is to settle Palestine. Just that they even have the capability to do so within the next 4 years.
I’m referring to this. Trump surprisingly had a lot with this most recent ceasefire, and even if he didn’t he’d take credit for it. I don’t see him forging good relations with American Muslims, but in the future I think we’ll see the GOP campaigning based on the (real or otherwise) accomplishment of bringing peace to Gaza. And when the alternative is the DNC… Yeah.
I think we’re at or close to the point where people just don’t want another fucking corporate neoliberal in charge, and most of them don’t have enough to lose to justify holding their nose to vote for more of the same. Unless the DNC does something different I expect it’s just going to go to the Republicans for the foreseeable future.
Trump has so many problems. But he can at least claim he’s going to be something different, which Harris and Clinton did not.
demorats coping hard
The voters are going to learn a lesson.
They didn’t last time. Maybe they’re getting what they wanted, and it’s the DNC that should be trying something different?
Or the voters can start voting better. They make their own decisions.
Sure, but the subject of this thread is whether Democrats have learned lessons from this. The Democratic Party can also make decisions, and ideally it’ll make some decisions that attract more votes next time.
We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests
Evergreen quote-
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair
Winning is detrimental to the party.
At a certain point, they realized that they make more money when they lose. The end goal of both parties isn’t to win, it’s to make the most money for their members. The democrats just happen to have stumbled into a situation where they have a perverse incentive to fuck things up just enough to barely lose so that they can keep their funding up.
Dems have won every national election except for 2 in the past 10 years.
Who upvotes this shit? Jesus Christ this is idiotic.
You drank the Kool aid.
Dems lost, because Americans are idiots. There’s no deeper meaning. Americans elected a con man for the second time. Con man, second fucking time. They knew how bad he is, because he already was president, yet they still voted for him. It blows my mind. No other explanation is needed, Americans are literally the dumbest pieces of shit on the face of the planet. I wish them the worst. They deserve what’s coming to them.
The small concession is that Trump is almost undoubtedly going to trip over his dick, so we’ll probably end up with a blue wave of some sort in 2028. Nothing will change for the DNC and no lessons will be learned, so 2032 looks bleak as shit.
We need to understand that Dems are not going to fight for anyone besides their donors. They’d rather lose than take pointers from someone like Bernie
So, voters vote even HARDER for moneyed interests by voting for the qons, or by sitting out or voting third party?
That’s some real nine dimensional chess there.
They only have 2 real options, it’s either more of the same or the guy who’s promising to tear down the system. There’s really no nine dimensional chess, it’s pretty clear cut to me.
To think otherwise is, once more, a failure to learn the lesson.
After that same guy didn’t tear down the system the first time, rather giving into lobbyist interests far more than any other ‘career politician’ in modern American history, such as in beating the record for inaugural bribe collection he himself set eight years ago, you’d think more people would at least recognize that Trump’s promises are either smoke in the wind or just a means for private interests to enrichen themselves at the expense of the American people.
To know that you’d need to be paying attention. Most people are not paying attention, they only remember they had more money back then.
Listen you can either accept that the vast majority of people are simpletons and try to make this out to be more complicated than it is, or you can understand why Trump won and use that to win next elections. Trump won because he understands that they are simpletons and engages them as such.
The guy promising to take down the system?
He advertised everything but that including lying, broken promises, and corruption in using the system to his benefit.
That’s what voters chose.
Yes, but it’s different. Do you really not understand how simple the calculus is for people who are not politically and or philosophically engaged?
I do, actually.
Promises from a consistent liar are probably lies. Simple equation, no calculus needed.
“We think you’re doing fine and we’re not stopping the genocide support” from people who aren’t liars will get people to stay home.
“We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests. They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs.”
Still one step lacking to understand what Republicans already do.
Moneyed interests are the leaders you get. Money is just one of the kinds of power, but a lot of other kinds are applied in the form of money. You can’t seriously expect to contribute energy of a negligible cost into expressing your opinion and even casting your vote, and even donating a dollar or two, and for that to somehow give real power to your side, even multiplied by millions. You are already choosing from a limited pool of people and positions to support. Defined by parties with real power before your choice. Together with a lot of other conditions of an election.
This is why the perfect, logical, supposedly honest system the more classical kind of Democrats dream about would not result into a honest democracy.
This is why the well-meaning kind of Republicans talk about checks and balances, and interpersonal connections between people having power, and gun ownership and in tech it would seem sometimes that they want to get into dystopian future faster.
That is because dystopian future may be better than dystopian past. Every day of your life is unlike any before it. It’s the same in history and good tall states with institutions and good democracies are devolving into something a bit more “1704 anno domini” all over the world. This is not anything new. The world is always changing. Unfortunately what progressives today consider progress is not the direction in which the humanity is, well, progressing.
But that dissonance is a clue for us to see. It’s not Bronze Age anymore, but humans are still eating each other. Progress is meaningful on such a scale, and so little affected by someone’s personal decisions, that any party or ideology calling itself “progressive” seems arrogant to the degree of madness.
Neoliberalism is done, it’s fucked. The liberals wanted and thought they could pull another Bernie and people would just go with it, fuck that.
Well, I’m not in denial. This country is full of fucking idiots. The next Democratic presidential candidate should be a celebrity that promises to achieve world peace and full gay space communism. Apparently empty promises and celebrity are what win elections.
What you been smoking, my friend?
I think you may have missed the point a bit. It’s exactly these ‘empty promises’ which have been the democrats issue over the past 30 years.
They get elected on messages like ‘make the economy work work everyday americans’ and then once in office they prioritize the status quo and making sure that nothing major changes. This benefits the wealth and damages everyday people, many of whom voted for them in the hopes that the democrats would improve their situation.
As awful as much of their platform is, the Republicans have proven that they aren’t scared to break things and make big changes. This appeals to many voters who feel let down by empty promises.
Name one of those empty promises and let’s review how they were voted on in congress. If the Democrats voted against it then your comment has merit, if Republicans blocked it your comment has no merit
You don’t get to just blame the opposition for making sure nothing got done. Especially when the other party manages to succeed when they have power.
What are you even talking about? I do get to blame the Congress members who vote for or against something. That is your civic duty. What do you do, check boxes for funsies?
The failure of Democrats is their own. Giving them a pass because of Republicans is lazy. There’s always opposition.
So yeah, for funsies
Democrats say good things for the people. Democrats win = Republicans just block everything and embarrass Democrats for it. Republican voters also go without understanding… The main thing is against the “enemy” (i.e. against America…)
Of course the Republicans only build shit and destroy America besides blocking everything good that would benefit the American citizen (you). But it was the Democrats… who accept a democratic election and after defeat. NOT block everything from Republicans. How deluded can you be.
Next? I’m sorry, but democracy continues to be dismantled. The train has left the station. Trump already had 4 years of training and now with direct support from Musk… Hate fear and more hate mongering…and Trump is using it… So are accusations of election meddling etc… fuck why hasn’t there been that accusation even from Democrats? That’s it… Its game over.
All those highly secured nuclear secrets or files in the restroom at the golf club… anyone who steals something like that… also steals/cheats in the election. But not 1 accusation… Republicans as well as Democrats don’t want democracy anymore. A convicted highly criminal traitor to the country and enemy of the state becomes president without riots etc… The Democrats who are now just pointing at the Republicans with “I told you so” but not doing a riot or anything else are just as hostile to democracy.
SHE HAS A VAGINA. THAT’S ALL IT TOOK. DEMOCRATS DIDN’T MISS THE MARK. SHE JUST HAS A VAGINA AND THE GENERAL PUBLIC WONT PUT ANYONE WITH A VAGINA IN THE WHITEHOUSE.
People stayed home because of Gaza and the economy but yeah it’s definitely because Harris is a woman.
They did-fucking-not. They stayed home because she’s a woman. Just like they did in 2016. End of fucking story. The rest is just political writers needing clicks to survive.
And angry people in denial who STILL feel a need to parade their concern like it’s a fucking medal.
Lol Hillary won the popular vote despite a decade of being attacked by the media. Hillary would’ve been president if it were not for the electoral college. Harris didn’t even have a decade long attack by the media, has somewhat of a momentum when Biden dropped out, and the Tim Walz pick also gained momentum, and there were lots of grassroot donations on the day of Biden dropping out. Still managed to perform worse than Hillary, didn’t even win the popular vote.
How many voters do you think can find Gaza on a map?
But they sure can see that Harris is a woman.
You’ll find many outlets reporting on this all citing the same poll, but here’s one.
LOL. Nice headline there. Not biased at all nope.
Harris didn’t “back” Israel’s genocide. She just failed to be sufficiently performative in her condemnation of it and failed to distance herself from her own administrations pro-Israeli policies. If you think that’s not all hand-waving and that somehow Trump will be less supportive of Israel’s genocide I have some gold colored sneakers for sale.
She did condemn it to be sure, but not enough to pass the purity test of those here in the US who felt that that acting against that genocide was far and away more important than preventing Americas rapid descent into a Christo-fascist oligarchy. Which, not incidentally, will happily support Israel’s complete and total erasure of the Palestinian people.
Well done! Good job!
Its more like: “I voted Biden last time and grocerry prices didn’t get lower, oh well I might as well stay home this time since voting didn’t change anything 🤷♂️”
“didn’t change anything”
- “that mattered to me personally”
Which is exactly how you know that all the hand-waving over Israel is largely performative. If you are not affected by domestic issues and the Really Bad Shit about to hit the fan then you can afford to be Very Very Concerned about issues that don’t affect you directly and personally.
Not all of us have that luxury.
It’s a combination of all of those factors, plus others. People try to point to one thing, but a whole bunch of people didn’t vote for her for a whole bunch of reasons.
Yeah, in 2016 it was so close any singular failing could have been the one that turned a win to a loss, but after this last one it’s multiple.
And they all sort of reinforce themselves. Seeing Democrats abandon one political principle and then seeing them being weak on one that’s close to home will make you less willing to accept it’s just a messaging choice. And all of that on top of the general economic malaise and lack of punishment for bad people in positions of power and something you might have let go becomes the final straw.
Gaza holds no water, kushner and Jr were on record for seeking to build condos in gaza once it was “cleared out”
And yet Trump toured Michigan promising (and making good on said promise, surprisingly) an end to the war.
And he just launched a meme coin opening at 25 bln. Apparently rubes live on both sides of the aisle.
Raids start next week.
Edit to think he “made good” is a joke. Some conversation from him had nothing to do with months of diplomatic work from real professionals. Biden is still in office btw and any “deals” would have to go through him.
Some conversation from him had nothing to do with months of diplomatic work from real professionals.
“You don’t see all the work going on behind the scenes” is Democrats’ “You don’t know my totally real girlfriend. She goes to another school.”
You’re wrong: the biggest cunt is going into the Whitehouse
This is bait haha no way it’s real
You’re literally doing exactly what this post complains about. The overwhelming sentiment of Harris replacing Biden was change - her campaign ran on that - yet she had basically all the same stances/policies a Biden, especially where it mattered to the voterbase (I.e. Gaza). She had an opportunity to diverge from Biden’s less popular platform, but chose not to, and it cost her the election. That’s the rub.
As for 2016 - people did turn out for Hilary. She won the popular vote by a significantly higher margin than Harris.
And as for 2020, Biden only won so easily because Trump’s woefully incompetent response to Covid19 was still in recent memory - and even that still resulted in a smaller margin than Obama’s first term.
Biden got 81 million votes, hasn’t been done since.
Firstly, I should clarify that I’m looking at % margin, not absolute, as it better accounts for voter turnout.
Secondly, if you want to go by absolute votes, then it’s worth noting that more people voted for Harris than voted for Hillary or Obama (who both won the popular vote).
She had the 3rd highest vote count in history, but that means nothing when she lost to Trump with the 2nd highest vote count in history.
She was battling Trump at the height of his popularity and needed the same turnout as 2020 Biden, but that simply wasn’t going to happen. As I said previously 2020 Biden had Covid19 on his side, and didn’t have the baggage of this election (I.e. Gaza).
Biden abdicating his candidacy to Harris was a brilliant opportunity for her to lift off the baggage Biden was carrying into the 2024 election (which he was predicted to lose), but she didn’t - and as such she lost as predicted.
Her loss had nothing to do with her being a woman, and much more to do with Democrats being out of touch and relying on Republican fearmongering to get people to turn out.
Fucking sigh.
yeah funny how the dems can turn out for a joe biden who sucks in 2020 but not for a hillary clinton or a kamala harris who suck in 2016 and 2024. like yes, people sat out for a wide host of reasons, but there’s a very glaring pattern that’s very easy to see
Biden ran on progressive economic policy and a generally satisfactory platform. People had a problem with his age, but he didn’t suck, not in the same way Harris and Hillary did.
BIDEN IS A TALL WHITE MAN. THAT’S WHY HE WON. THAT’S WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN IN THIS IDIOT INFESTED COUNTY.
- MAN
- WHITE
- TALL
NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
You learned nothing.
Obama was president for eight years.
SEE NUMBERS 1 AND 3 ABOVE.
the lack of criticism for how centrist and shitty joe biden, just like hillary and kamala, is kind of exactly what i’m talking talking about. they all three suck in basically all the exact same ways. of all the candidates to run in 2020 primaries, he was basically the worst one. kamala was actually more progressive than him. but yet, here we are. arguing that he ran left of Kamala’s 2024 bid. and before you bring up palestine, they’ve all been shit on that subject since 2006 at least, so drop it. that’s not why kamala lost at the end of the day. it’s that joe biden was allowed to win as a mediocre white man in 2020, but kamala had to do everything perfect to be viable in the eyes of those 19 million voters who stayed home, especially in the swing states where people absolutely mobilized to get out the vote for an overtly fascistic and racist orange candidate
they all three suck in basically all the exact same ways.
No they didn’t. Biden ran on progressive policy written by Sanders; Harris ran on including Republicans in her cabinet and finishing the border wall.
so drop it.
No I won’t. 29% of people who voted Biden in 2020 and stayed home in 2024 cited it as the top reason they stayed home. It is part of the reason Harris lost because she didn’t promise to do anything different from Biden while Trump did (and seemingly kept his promise for once).
Not really. Even Hillary won the popular vote (only didn’t become president due to the outdated electoral college), Harris just sucks.
I mean, Hillary also had a lot of baggage, decade of being attacked by the media, still won popular vote. The media didn’t really have a decade to trash Harris’ reputation, but she still did worse than Hillary.
Hillary did have the Clinton name. Whether that helped or hurt, we don’t know, but it was a factor
I think that the Liberal ideology, with a capital L, is what is being revolted and rebelled against at a very fundamental level by a majority of America. But the Democrats can’t see it,
The average American has no idea what Liberalism actually is. Half the country believe the lie that the lifelong neoliberal / “traditional conservative” Joe Biden is “leftist” ffs.
Americans are the most heavily propagandized, and poorly educated, population in the developed world.
People want real fucking change. One man stood up against a massive evil health insurance company and regular people from all sides of the political spectrum support him.
Dems could have won if they were willing to do the same and no one would even need to be hurt to do it.
Naturally, there are a host of other problems mentioned in this thread. The trouble is that there is too much free $peech from the ruling class in politics.
They want us to think real change is impossible.
People want real fucking change.
So they helped to elect Trump for a non-consecutive term lol
I think for people like me, the biggest fuck you was from Obama. He ran on hope and change. He ran on at least a public option. And he went into the office and literally shut down the ground operation that swept him into his position and then basically spent 8 years appeasing Republicans despite the fact that people wanted transformational change. That’s why they picked him over Clinton. He delivered Romneycare, bank bailouts, and drone wars.
Kamala was running on “Isn’t Trump a weirdo?”, but that was working so she stopped.
The DNC does not want to win if it means causing actual change.
They pivoted from “Trump is a weirdo” to “Dick Cheney likes us!” like the absolute morons they are.
I love how “We were too woke!”, and I"m like “Woke? Is that what you call having Thanksgiving with Penis Cheney?”
Y’all stay on Obama’s dick.
Maybe you didn’t read that comment? I think you got it backwards.
And when people wonder why it’s so hard to get out the vote, I think this is a key reason why. I’m old enough to have gone to Obama’s rallies, knock on doors for his campaign as a volunteer, vote for him and watch with joy as he won.
Hope and change. After the George W Bush presidency and the war on terror, it finally seemed like it was time for the pendulum to swing back.
And then every issue they came to the table with a position already in the center in hopes of appealing to the republicans who would then hold their breath and kick their feet and then it would slide further and further to the right until they were holding up romneycare as a progressive victory while also getting completely destroyed in the court of public opinion for passing romneycare.
I knew a lot of people that were very excited for Obama the candidate and completely disillusioned by Obama the president.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
You can only tell people so many times. Vote blue and we promise this time, this time, we will make it better. I know last time we didn’t, but it was because of the blue dogs, or Joe Lieberman, or Joe Manchin. Sure, we have no plan to get rid of those people or other spoilers and we will doggedly support them in every primary… but somehow this time will be different.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks.
They will all be miraculously absent when Republicans change the senate rules to get rid of the filibuster.
I honestly wonder if at this point, candidates would be better off pursuing progressive legislation by running a Republicans.
Ideological purity doesn’t matter worth a shit to Republicans. See Republican voters loving the ACA while hating Obamacare. The party that is supposedly pro free market now openly endorses tariffs and regulation on business to advance a host of culture war bugbears. Republicans are not libertarians; the base especially isn’t ideologically opposed to government programs.
I could see a progressive running for the Republican nomination, a latter-day Teddy Roosevelt. And since the Republicans have become the party of the working class, while Democrats are the party of lawyers and big business, the attack lines write themselves. “Democrats are in bed with the insurance industry!” “Democrats want to pick your pocket instead of giving you healthcare!” “Democrats can’t pass a health plan without lining the pockets of their donors!”
The Republican party has proven itself to be much more susceptible to disruption from outside charismatic figures. The Republican base has far more control over the Republican party than the Democratic base does of the Democratic party. In 2016, the establishment Republicans tried to shoot Trump down, but their base overpowered them, and Trump took over the party. Bernie tried the same thing in 2016 and 2020, but the DNC was far more powerful and able to resist this outside takeover.
I really think that now may be the time for a return of progressive Republicans in the mold of Teddy Roosevelt. Promise to fix healthcare and break up big businesses left and right. Throw a bone to the right by promising to exclude illegal immigrants from the healthcare law (which they would never be eligible for anyway.) Hell, you could even write it so it didn’t exclude coverage for abortion and trans healthcare. If someone points that out, just lie and say that your plan does include these exclusions. It’s not like the truth on such things matters anymore. Sell it in simple terms the common man can understand.
I really do wonder if at this point, progressive candidates might gain more traction by running as Republicans. The Republican party is not ideologically libertarian, and it has proven far more receptive to outsiders and new ideas than the Democratic party.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
Every single time!
I still find it frustrating to hear this line every single time. Like somehow every single member of congress during that time was hyper focused on the ACA bill, couldn’t have pushed for their own legislation to be pushed forward.
I’ve had plenty of wake up calls, and every time I do, someone calls me weird for the dog whistles becoming fog horns.
I remember watching the debates during the Obama campaign and thinking “this guy is just as pro big business as the republicans”. The only candidate who was talking about the need to limit the political power of corporations/finance was Ron Paul.
Bernie to Trump pipeline
and drone wars
I’d have been fine with the US killing even more Al-Qaida and Taliban members, even those that happened to be US citizens fighting alongside their comrades in a combat zone. Every single one of them would be about right. And if you’re squeamish about drones, let’s be real, you are really just squeamish about warfare, because every other form of killing in warfare is just as brutal and most are far more indiscriminate.
Also, as soon as Trump got in the first time, he changed rules of engagement to take less account of civilian casualties.
iirc technically Obama reduced counting of drone strike civillian casualties, Trump just stopped counting all together.
If liberals could learn they wouldn’t be liberals.
If leftist could learn, they leave the Dems alone and support the socialist party.
I learned when they ratfucked Bernie out of the race in 2020. I live in Iowa, they destroyed my caucus!
Haha
As if it’s not the dems throwing a tantrum every time someone on Lemmy promoted a third party. Clearly you people don’t even know what you want.
I want you to support the Socialist Party
The Socialist Party is a third party. Maybe you should ask your fellow Dems to stop suppressing third parties first before you can get rid of the left from your party.
