More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
Interestingly it looks like in 3 of 4 charts men have, at worst, returned to mean. It’s the women getting more leftist. And I don’t blame them.
Well, honestly what political positions women have means less in “interesting times” like ours.
They are not strongly pressured by conservative men of their family and surroundings (if they have such), because tribal parts of politics rely a lot on crowd instincts, and those of women don’t work exactly the same. They do participate in politics, but with the different kind of emotion.
For men a woman holding different views is usually not an existential enemy. They might ridicule that or dislike, that may look disgusting, but it’s a different kind of attitude. It’s pretty normal for women from families from authoritarian elites to have publicly liberal views. The dictator daddy won’t punish his daughter for reposting something virtue-signalling against what he’s doing. He knows it’s of no consequence.
At the same time women, of course, see the tendencies around us and their views change accordingly.
But again, in the “interesting times” what men do may matter just a bit more, because there are power dynamics involved where women are disadvantaged due to both different tribal instincts and to men being more represented among people with power. In some sense political views are a kind of compensation.
So it’s both bigger incentives for such views (with actual incels loudly talking) and less pressure (that’s spent on threatening violence against male opponents).
I’m not an incel. Just thinking.
Yeah, I would classify them as mean
Liberalism isn’t the same as Left. It’s not even in the same political axis.
You can’t really read “more liberal” as being the same as “more leftist”.
Left would be something like: “I want the greatest good for the greatest number”.
Liberalism would be something like: “I want people to have the most freedom to do whatever they want”.
You might notice that these two things collide in things like the existence of the super-rich, were for a liberal that’s a good thing (they have maximum freedom) whilst for a Leftie it’s a bad thing (wealth concentration reduces the access to resources for the many hence it directly goes against the greatest good for the greatest number).
Similarly centralizing control of part or the whole of the Economy (which decreases trade freedom) to achieve greater equality is absolutelly valid within the Leftwing principles and entirely against Liberal principles.
it’s only in places like the US, were the entirety of Leftwing is about 4 congressmen, that Liberalism gets confused with Leftwing.
In graphs like these it is very much all smushed together. Otherwise they’d need a 3d plot.
If you want to get really technical too, liberalism and socialism have giant grey overlap areas. Classical Liberalism wasn’t just about personal freedom, but also government by the people, for the people. Which is a collective good and freedom.
It’s not nearly so easy as labeling one person a leftist and another a liberal. So above I use leftist in it’s colloquial meaning of getting less conservative, literally moving to the left.
Difficult to assess this info without knowing how the data was created.
Also hard to believe the American average is +20 leaning lib. The country is represented by a fascist party and a centrist party, and anything more left than the centrist party is considered “far left”.
The Y axis here is not an absolute international political compass. It measures which political party each person favors, and judging by that country’s local standards categorizes that party as either left or right.
A rising number in the US chart means a larger number of people prefer democrats over republicans. It doesn’t mean that people’s stances are necessarily moving further left. Similarly, it’s no coincidence that the inflection point where UK numbers rise by a lot correspond to Brexit: the party seen as responsible for the unpopular change lost a lot of support, but that doesn’t mean the population has so sharply moved drastically more progressive in such a short time.
The US population is largely some variety of “liberal” meaning vaguely left. The problem is the structure of our government favors land, not population.
The graph is about young people, not the entire population. Young people in America are historically more progressive than older people.
Also why does liberal and conservative have to be on an absolute scale? The words liberal and conservative seem to me at least be about pushing politics in one direction or another. Because policy is always subject to change, shouldn’t the words liberal and conservative be relative to the political system they exist within?
And, I did miss that important detail.
It doesn’t have to be an absolute scale of course, but then why show 4 countries where all seem to deviate from the center? Are these country graphs even comparable?
Yeah I agree, it’s not a very good graph. I just get frustrated when people ridicule the US political system for everything. We have a lot to fix (like what’s causing women to become more liberal), but I think we need to focus on what’s actionable and reasonable to fix. We can’t become +20 more liberal overnight.
Yes, “liberal” and “conservative” are relative, not absolute terms. There’s a concept known as the Overton Window which describes exactly this shift of what is considered the “center” and what is considered a radical left/right position in any given society at any given time.
The idea that people should vote for their representatives, for example, was once considered an extremist take that could ruin civilization itself if implemented. The Overton Window shifted and nowadays even most Fascists will at least pretend in public to agree with it.
What the fuck South Korea? Also you just know that sudden rise in liberal men in the UK is the Tories’ doing.
oh yeah, South Korea has gone off the rails recently. lots of news stories about men assaulting women for the assumption that they’re feminists, anti-woman politicians being elected, women losing their jobs for being (or assumed to be) feminists, it’s all Very Not Good.
The Tories are really good at convincing people to hate them, fuck the Tories
It’s very easy because the Tories have recently decided that the reason people don’t like them is because they’re not fascist enough, so they’ve doubled down and decided to be more fascist. At least trying to be, but it’s difficult to be fascist when you lost power due to being awful fascists.
Weirdly people didn’t want that, and so now they’re even less popular.
People have always hated the Tories, however I think the recent hate can go back to a particular prime minister whose grave is now a gender neutral bathroom.
In the north of England certainly. Not sure how much people in London care about Thatcher.
I was thinking more recently about Boris and his various illegal activities. Oh and the crashing of the economy by the disability hire. Or the fact that our most recent excuse for a Tory prime minister basically allowed the Extreme right-wing free reign because he was incapable of standing up to them.
Anti-feminism has taken a huge hold in SK. it’s partially related to the draft, but that’s nothing new. women have been getting increased respect over the past decades, esp in sharp contrast to the pre-war era when women didnt even deserve names beyond “X’s mom”.
the situation for women is actually improving a lot here, in many ways better than in other developed nations. consider it just one last baby whine
SK is wild right now. Women are taking part in the 4B movement (no dating, sex, childbirth, or marriage. The Korean words start with “B”). There was a online feminist group that got people so heated they thought they were sneaking hand signals into “male” media and they were getting people fired. If certain characters didn’t come out with risqué enough clothing, male netizens would blame some secret feminist in the company. Women are assaulted if they’re confused for a feminist due to just their hairstyle. A book (“Kim Jiyoung 1989” I think) that is, like, baby’s first feminist literature, can have your spouse leave you. Men say you can’t date a woman whose read it. All the book is about is the subtle sexism women face. They have an epidemic of “molka,” which are secret cameras in women’s bathrooms among other places. Women tell each other to bring nail polish to paint over the screws to protect themselves. Their new president is looking to abolish the gender equality ministry and blames feminism for the low birth rate.
TL;DR: Yeah, it’s pretty bad over there right now.
Edit: Here’s a two part video that goes over this surprisingly well for being about gacha games. Part 1 and Part 2.
Holy fuck. There are legitimately third world countries better than this what the fuck.
Can confirm, it’s comparatively (sometimes even without comparing) a shithole in every other way out here, but it’s not NEARLY as bad for gender equality. Still pretty bad don’t get me wrong, but at least the government isn’t actively trying to dismantle institutions formed to combat gender inequality 🤷♂️
Okay, but how many are leftists?
🌳 Die? No. We lost them, and now we cannot find them.
Poor Treebeard…
Now I hear Treebeard whining about modern females and how none of them want to be Entwives for alpha Ents
If you read the books, you’ll find that you’re not far off.
Here, have some unsourced data on subjective tendencies.
Nah, that doesn’t count as data just yet then.
Especially not at a point in time where someone like Trump is said to represent “Conservatism”.
Another Lemmy post with no source in the main post.
Conservative being down is a good presentation choice.
From a personal point of view, I agree, but playing devil’s advocate, really the chart should be flipped so that the left/rightness is shown that way and the dates are on the vertical axis.
It’d also be good if the time periods matched, and if there was a source for the data.
The swapped colors aren’t, though.
As women gain independence, frightened men turn to patriarchal solutions. Hence a turd like JD Vance spouting hateful and controlling rhetoric on podcasts and Ahole Tate brainwashing adolescent boys. Fuck these people.
The study about low skill gamers being the most likely to be sexist over voice chat will forever be on my mind.
Young men and young women haven’t been around long enough to have seen anything change like your suggesting. If that were the case it would be older women and men who are changing
Is this… tilted slightly?
Am I leaning?
left-leaning, maybe
Mine curves to the left
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Hagmaxxing…? Do you hear yourself? None of this is based on reality.
Edit: oh you’ve already been removed on another instance, nice
I sometimes think they turn conservative because women won’t date them.
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In the age of social media I imagine people are actually a lot more antisocial than we used to be…. And if young men and young women are all online more now and actually go out to interact in person less than we used to, this would make it a lot more difficult for young men to interact with the young women long enough to ask them out….
Online is heavily skewed in women’s favor unfortunately. I had a female coworker that had 100+ matches on bumble and kept complaining how hard it was too keep track of. She wasn’t even very pretty and she had an empty pot for head. Meanwhile male coworkers really struggle. No surprise This will make some males bitter and lash out. Even if they do find a partner Worst part is if the social skills are bad it is a bad relationship. I hope we are not seeing a universe 25 style collapse.
I wasn’t specifically talking about online dating, but women are generally more desired by men than vice versa, whether online or in person.
I can’t imagine online dating to be useful than for more than a handful of people in my opinion.
I was more saying since we are all online more, we are all interacting in person a lot less, which allows for more organic interactions…
Yeah I agree. Wanting to Go back the good old days is what is causing this trend. Though Realistically all the social skills in the world won’t bag you the girl if you are average right now. I knew a few coworkers that wouldn’t even talk to a guy unless he was a 666 man. 6 figures, 6 feet, 6 pack. No surprise they are single. I wonder if their POV changed overtime, they were in early 20s at the time. I know my old roommate lowered her standards super hard over 30 to bag a husband.
Anecdotal evidence is not the same as actual data across populations
The Sample size is rather small from personal experience. I am curious if such data exists.
I can’t remember which app it was, but I tried online dating over a decade ago. I noticed I wasn’t getting very many responses to any messages I sent out, and it was basically after saying yes to everyone and I had spent some time on the app, so I got to the point where I just messaged everyone a generic opener….
I talked to my female roommate at the time and I got a couple generic photos of her, she was a young mid 20’s woman who was very pretty but idk average for a young beautiful woman.
I created a new profile for myself, and also a second profile for her, I let her choose the most attractive photos of me and I chose some dorky not very attractive but still cute I guess photos of her….
She had ten messages before we were even able to upload the first photo after just creating the account.
This doesn’t mean that she got messages from guys who were someone she would consider dating. It just means she got a lot of messages. I think guys don’t realize how many messages the women get. They have to wade through hundreds of “hi how are you doing” messages before they can even start a conversation. Whereas the guys have to send out messages that are unique and capture the attention of ladies to get a conversation started. Neither is ideal, it’s just how it is
That’s very true and likely why she felt so overwhelmed. No one is really winning. She would have had a really good match in there but drowned in a sea of options.
In this case we only left the app open for a couple hours that afternoon before we deleted it, but it’s just anecdotal evidence that show if we are specifically talking about online dating the problems are just as bad for either sex if we are talking about cis heteronormative relationships
A really sad point. Though I think drowning in option is better for self esteem than 0. If males had plenty I doubt we would see such a trend.
I’m pretty sure women don’t want to date people who have any sort of disposition that leans towards hating them or believing that women are lesser than men.
Unfortunately, a lot of men learned that way of thinking early in life(from family and/or media) and it ruins any attempt at a relationship, then they blame women and run to the very people who set them up to fail for validation, or find new ones like that sex trafficker with the pizza boxes, or that canadian psychologist who sugar coats sexism online. Repeat ad nauseum.
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academics like peterson
LMFAO
Didn’t he recently lose his license to practice because he was saying bullshit that no real psychiatrist would agree with?
Didn’t he recently lose his license to practice because he was saying bullshit that no real psychiatrist would agree with?
Not yet! He has to go to training first
I have an old high school friend who is very much into the whole Andrew Tate thing. His parents were separated, I don’t know the details as to why, but I do know that his father was a lot more stable than his mother, and I do sometimes wonder if he had lived with his father, if he would have turned out better.
He also thinks the earth is flat because… otherwise a ball would roll off a table. QED.
So not exactly firing an all cylinders to begin with.
That’s a interesting point. My mother was substantially more mentally stable when I was a child then when my siblings were born.
“Divorced dad energy” is one of those meme things that everyone likes to make fun of when a dude does anything, but no one likes to address that same poison when divorced moms act like fools.
My mother would drag me to various groups that would absolutely shit on “men” constantly, and I got to hear that constantly. It was weird growing up in that environment, but luckily for me it was before the redpill trash all over the internet. Managed to find some good friends in high school
What’s the source? I wanna learn about the weird unexpected drops in some countries.
For anyone else also interested, I went and had a look at the links Dessalines kindly provided.
The source on the graphs says “Sources: Daniel Cox, Survey Center on American Life; Gallup Poll Social Series; FT analysis of General Social Surveys of Korea, Germany & US and the British Election Study. US data is respondent’s stated ideology. Other countries show support for liberal and conservative parties All figures are adjusted for time trend in the overall population.” Where FT is financial times.
It’s not clear how the words “liberal” and “conservative” were chosen, whether they’re intended to mean “socially progressive” and “socially traditional” or have other connotations bound with the political parties too, and whether the original data chose those descriptions or if they’re FT’s inference as being “close enough” for an American audience.
Unfortunately the FT data site is refusing to let me look at them without “legitimate interest” advertising cookies so I can’t tell you much more or if there’s any detail on methodology.
I genuinely fear for future for women across the world
Lol yeah woman were much safer, better educated, and financially independent historically. /S
Read “why women had better sex under socialism, and other arguments for economic independence”
What if they like being on top? 👀
I dont understand the joke
🤦 Sex under socialism versus being on top
Oh I think there is going to be a sequel where she covere tops’ rights within socialism
I’m no sexpert but I think when people say they are a top or a bottom they are talking specifically about gay sex?
Although maybe now it refers to bdsm stuff I don’t actually know
Current trends will definitely continue and there has never been large sociopolitical upheavals in the past, and there definitely won’t be any in the future.
lol
That’s a different argument - yes, things were worse in the past than they are now. That doesn’t mean that things won’t get worse than they are now in the future.
It also doesn’t mean they won’t remain exactly as they currently are, or get better.
That’s true, but it doesn’t negate the point you are replying to.
Looks at past. Looks at future, well shit climate change is going to savage human life on earth. Checks notes woman are human. Shit bros your right I fear for womans futures too!
Current trends will definitely continue and there has never been large sociopolitical upheavals in the past, and there definitely won’t be any in the future.
So many men who will never get a girlfriend and not understand why. Social media influencers were a mistake.
Is this related to differences in prefrontal cortex maturity rates in young adults?
Is anyone brave enough to ask why?
The answer is simple the media is radicalizing people and gender is one of their primary motivations it is hand tailored to divide and conquer minds.
I agree. Any divide they can make they will make. Its also convenient as it means they can use their culture war propaganda for double action to distract the masses.
Apparently you are, god speed you poor thing.
Im not afraid of downvotes or getting my feewings hurt.
Rapid increases in the productive forces of South Korea has resulted in a progressive population of women and a hyper-reactionary population of men, the increase in productive forces was so rapid it caused a hyper-sharpening of contradictions with tradition.
This is probably more of a symptom than a cause, but social media platforms pushing manosphere content isn’t helping.
I wasn’t paying attention for like 2 seconds and it went from “Men also have rights” to “Andrew Tate is a role model”, like WTF internet, stop ruining good things, fuck.
But people need to make money. Internet will stop being ruined when it stops being monitized.
Unfortunately, “Men’s Rights” was a bait and switch. The Alpha/Sigma ideology says there can only ever be a handful of “True Men” worthy of human rights. Everyone else has to either prove themselves through combat or submit to being less than human.
Alpha/Sigma ideology
I remember when that was just a category of porn writing 😞
Unfortunately it’s not a bait and switch, there real issues in how we’re failing boys and men are surely contributing to this concerning trend.
Especially when we blame the victims.
These “True Men” ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men who’ve been left behind, like any cult leader would.
real issues in how we’re failing boys and men
Only the poor ones. You know, the “betas”.
These “True Men” ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men who’ve been left behind
They’re driving the disparity. Artificially constricting the demand for labor in order to drive down wages. Privatizing public services to squeeze working people for their last dime. Bombarding audiences with FUD in order to get them to blame every conceivable external agent - illegal migrants, evil foreign governments, spies, terrorists, literal fucking space aliens - so that the public is in a constant state of anxiety and exhaustion. Busting unions. Busting street protests. Busting college campuses. Corrupting the foundations of the political system to shield themselves from accountability for their shady actions. Then dumping vast fortunes into policing and the military in order to unleash wave upon wave of violence on working class communities.
At the forefront of all of these moves are “Alpha” men. People who believe themselves entitled to enormous wealth and social privilege, extracting at the expense of the rest of us. Its only after we’ve been ravaged that we see the lackeys and sycophants of these self-entitled paymasters step back in to recruit for the next generation of gladiatorial fighters, street cops, and foreign mercenaries.
Shock value gets upvotes and downvotes.
There was a famous radical feminist from decades ago who argued all men should be killed. I don’t think she was relevant during twitter or in the recent internet… if she had been, idk 🤷♂️
I think the problem with some of these issues is that there are academic theories that are being discussed, which end up getting reduced by non academics and applied to specific individuals.
In the men’s rights forums it becomes men and boys are being left behind, this gets turned into pointing at a specific woman and blaming her.
Likewise in feminist ideology there is the idea of the patriarchy, this gets turned into some people pointing fingers at specific men and blaming them.
I recon its both, looks like the symptom makes the cause more potent makes the symptoms worse.
to the privileged, equality is oppression. And therefore more pushback to maintain the status quo
Women’s lib has been great for women but not so good for men. So men are becoming reactionary.
Bullshit. Most men suffer under toxic patriarchy as well. I absolutely love that this shit is finally getting pulled into the spotlight. I have not suffered a single iota of harm from anything “woke” and I would argue that no honest man has either.
Dishonest men still get to vote though
How do men suffer under patriarchy? Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives? Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people. I wonder what such a narrative would do to a young man trying to develop a sence of self, identity, and personal ideology?
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
This is so back asswards it is genuinely astounding.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Male suicide is getting worse every year the patriarchy is getting destroyed more every year, im simply pointing out the correlation is backward sof what u claim.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
The data correlates exactly the wrong way for this to be true.
Correlation does not equal causation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Exactly but causation does not come without correlation. Causation is a subset of correlation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Economic disparity should be effecting the genders equally unless you are saying women are doing better financially.
Yep. Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death without complaining to anyone. So our mental health is in the fucking toilet. If you’re not working enough, you’re not providing and you’re not a real man. If you do work enough but show any emotion that’s not a “manly” emotion (anything involving tears outside of a funeral or during Old Yeller or anything that’s too excited) then you’re not a real man.
I could write a whole dissertation on how young men get sucked into that whole toxic ideology due to the promises of being able to have a family and a house. And it’s all a fucking lie.
Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death
My man… Your owner wants this and we LARPed that kool aid.
Got take some ownership IMHO
Also, got to ID the perp… Otherwise this entire discussion is a futile exercise.
How do men suffer under patriarchy?
Queer and gender nonconforming men get an immense amount of abuse due to patriarchy. Even gender conforming straight boys and men do if they show sensitivity in any real capacity. The abuse of boys and young men for the sake of making them “man up” is hardly an unusual in many areas.
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
What? This has nothing to do with the comment you replied to.
Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people.
No, this is a ridiculous conclusion you drew from someone saying patriarchy hurts everyone.
What the fuck?
Just because one side gets more rights, doesn’t mean the other side loses rights.
I guess if the rights you miss is the ability to beat your wife without repercussions.
Women are rightfully concerned about the loss of bodily autonomy. They don’t want to live in the handmaids tale.
That explains the US, but that’s about it.
For example Europe there are no movements towards making abortion illegal, quite the contrary.
They see what can happen over seas
True - the US of late has been a great inspiration for what NOT to do.
I’m sure that is part of it but proposing that as the sole reason seems unnecessarily reductive.
Bro really said that losing all right to bodily autonomy isn’t a good enough reason to dramatically shift someone’s political leaning
I didn’t say that at all and if that’s what you thought I said then your reading comprehension skills could use some work. I said reproductive rights are a part of a larger culture shift in how women vote. If even one woman has started voting against Republicans for reasons other than abortion access then your dumb assertion that they don’t care about anything else falls apart. So maybe you should stop trying to simplify complex issues into easy to digest soundbites in order to make yourself seem like the most intelligent person in the room.
You’re right, but man reading this is insufferable. You could be much more effective if you weren’t trying to be a dick in your responses.
If you read the comment that preceded my response and came away thinking that I’m the one who devolved the conversation to this point then I’m going to have to disagree with you. That guy was clearly trying to stroke his own ego by putting someone else down and vapid grade school bullying tactics are something of a pet peeve of mine. My original comment was perfectly civil.
When pregnancy and child birth are such a monumental part of a persons life, and the ability to choose whether or not to go through that process is taken away, it makes a lot of sense why this is the ‘sole reason’ for some women. As someone who very recently gave birth, everything else in the world and other political topics are dwarfed by the absolute earth-shattering life event that is bringing a child into this world. I think it is something that people who haven’t been through it themselves, or who are not empethetic can not wrap their heads around. But there is absolutely a reason why many women are voting liberal for abortion rights alone. That is the single freedom that contributes most directly to a womens adult life. While tax policies and national affairs have an impact on everyones day to day lives, reproductive rights have an acute impact on womens immediate futures.
Abortion is undoubtedly a big reason for shifting voting habits for a large number of women. However, it is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the way conservatives, particularly conservative men, treat and talk about women.
I know women who describe themselves as pro-life and yet have moved away from the Republican party due to the way they have handled various GOP leaders sex scandals, rape accusations, and general attitude towards women. They don’t want abortion rights restored and yet they are turning away from Republicans. That is why I say that viewing this shift in voting habits solely through the lens of reproductive rights is unnecessarily reductive. By doing so you are excluding women who are part of that shift from consideration both in this discussion and in the larger view of what women in America want their future to look like. Your experience, while not uncommon, is not universal and any discussion that frames a complex issue in such a way is missing part of the picture.
Do those same women think other women should die for a miscarriage like has happened twice now because of its connection to abortion. Or how about the lady face a life sentence in prison for a miscarriage. I think you’re utterly discounting the seriousness of all of that.
You’d have to ask the pro life women. All he is saying is that the issue most important to you and many other women is not the only issue affecting these trends.
That’s literally all the other poster is saying.
You are exactly right. Thank you for not trying to pull extra information out of what I’m saying.
Oh there are absolutely women who have turned their backs on the conservative party for those reasons and remain pro life. Personally, I see the issues as interconnected. It feels like we see a headline at least once a month where a conservative politician had an extra marital affair and was perfectly fine insisting their girlfriend get an abortion so that they can maintain their squeaky clean image. Or if their daughter had premarital sex and her successful college career was in jeopardy they would see things differently. Rules for thee and not for me. The shift is obviously more nuanced than a single issue, but reproductive rights radiates through a lot of different issues because it has to do with specifically men and their belief that their opinion matters more than others.
Andrew Tate blaming normal life issues on women and pushing teenagers to be very hateful against them is one big reason
If the issues young men had wherent real he wouldnt have the followers. We do account for 75% of suicides so Tate’s diagnosis is correct just his treatment is wrong.
75% of suicide deaths. the number of attempts is about the same
“Dont send a women to do a mans job” - Andrew Tate
If you can’t kill yourself properly, just find a real alpha man to do the job correctly? You don’t know jack about suicide. Here let me mansplain that for ya
- puts down Tylenol, grabs gun
Edited for clarity since this is very dark humor: “In other news tonight, the “smiling woman” was arrested today after apparently murdering her husband. She was contemplating suicide but made other choices. The video was live-streamed on tic tock. Coming at 6 tonight stay tuned to WTAF news”
Wait u thought i was being serious?
I hope not lol
This is such a wildly intelligent comment that I’m curious what the down voters think. Guessing either Tate fans or ignoramuses, but I’m happy to be proven wrong.
Have been discussing it with them and they are simply unwilling to give him any credit even if said credit is for highly successfull marketing of a wildly dangerouse religion like ideology to vulnerable youths.
How disgusting, people being unwilling to credit a rapist and sex trafficker.
Next thing we’re going to do is what, not crediting Hitler?
I downvoted because the fact that issues exists doesn’t justify the proposed “solutions”. It’s like saying that bloodletting has a point because patients really were sick, those things are not causally related.
I think that even having no one talk about problems is better than having someone talk about problems to actively do harm and gain power. One part of my reasons is usually this is not the case, and some already talk about the same problems but are not heard. Another reason is that when a problem is widely spread and there is no one exploiting it or raising awareness, there exists a pressure to start doing just that. So even no one is better than Tate.
the fact that issues exists doesn’t justify the proposed “solutions”
Ok but they never said it did. They just pointed out that saying “assholes like Andrew State are responsible” leaves out that there’s a reason people go to him and thus is not the actual root problem
I think that even having no one talk about problems is better than having someone talk about problems to actively do harm and gain power
Wow, you’re trash
Reason people go to Tate is not because issues exist, there’s reason to people going to any liar or scammer and it’s never the issue at hand, it’s the illusion of a simple answer.
He preys on vulnerable young men, yes, that’s the point. There are healthier male role models online but I’m not sure youtube shares them widely.
Exactly. But i feel both sides simply see these young men as soldiers to be recruited to their army of ideology. Regardless their is definatly a crisis of purpose for all youths thats effecting men particularly badly.
It’s “The Woke”. Women are more visible in society as they are treated more equally, so certain (yes not all men) men see that as men losing rights and want to go back to “the good old days”
If you created a similar graph mapping the ideology gap between races or straight and LGBTQIA+ they’d look very similar.
Fascism is sociologically rooted in the sexual insecurity of men. That’s why it’s always men driving it.
Do you have a reason to think this or did it just sound good in your head
There is a ton of academic interest in the relationship between sexuality and fascism. It was first noted in “The Mass Psychology of Fascism” by Wilhelm Reich after WW2. My comment is, of course, a massive oversimplification of a complex social dynamic.
It’s the same dynamic that made US racists paranoid that black men wanted to rape white women when, in fact, their deeper fear was that white women wanted to have sex with black men. Fascists are particularly sensitive to sexual relations between “their women” and whomever they have chosen to blame for all their misfortunes.
So facism is mens fault? I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing? Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
Your misconstruing the statement. Fascism is a way for insecure men to feel powerful. These men are feeling insecure due to lack of job prospects, lack of honest to God to physical insecurity, and that also makes them less desirable to potential mates.
The way to protect against fascism is to ensure proper addressing of Maslow‘s-goddamn-hierarchy of needs. Endstage, capitalism leads to fascism, but it has to secure itself in spreading racism and sexism.
The only possible explanation for any of this is that men are bad and we should definitely not examine the underlying causes and material conditions at all.
Great idea im sure them killing themselves at record rates must be an anomoly.
Well, you can prove anything with facts.
I knew it as soon as I read your ‘Tate is right’ bullshit.
So facism is mens fault?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing?
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
It’s room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries
that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.this is kind of meaningless to point out, since men also had the power in every country that turned towards socialism, gave or took away rights, started and ended wars, etc.
I knew it as soon as I read your ‘Tate is right’ bullshit.
So men have no issues and the only reason men are listening to tate is cos they are hatfull evil bastards?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
Im so happy to learn that women didnt go along with fascism or support it in any way. If u knew anything about history u’d have heard of Magda Goebbels, Irma Grese, Eva Braun, Margaret Harker, Yukiko Sugishita etc.
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Abortions are about the liberty to do with onself as one wishes, what does this got to do with u blaming men for fascism? Having your gender (something where most people derive a majority of their identity) blamed for the entirety of facism and its hanouse actions isnt exactly fair or a good way to raise a child.
It’s room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
This is bad faith child-like insults not a civilised discussion of ideas undertaken by real adults. I stand against fascists and i will not let you paint me as one.
There are definitely issues affecting men, the only men listening to Tate are weaklings looking to a perceived ‘tough guy’ for answers.
If u knew anything about history
I would also know they didn’t get voted into positions of power, give speeches, command invasions or otherwise directly wield any power. Because they were living in patriarchal societies. Please think before you comment.
Abortions are about the liberty to do with onself as one wishes, what does this got to do with u blaming men for fascism?
As much as calling out fascists has to do with impacting the political views of non-fascists. There’s an Explain Like I’m Five sub somewhere you could post this question to.
If you don’t want to be insulted you should avoid entering conversations by parroting the views of rapists.
There are definitely issues affecting men, the only men listening to Tate are weaklings looking to a perceived ‘tough guy’ for answers.
Yes exactly, im simpky saying thwy wouldnt be listening if he hadnt resonated with their issues.
I would also know they didn’t get voted into positions of power, give speeches, command invasions or otherwise directly wield any power. Because they were living in patriarchal societies. Please think before you comment.
If we go back to your original claim that facism is entirely mens fault and this claim that women had no power does this make these women innocent? Also by ur logic men did literally everything else including go to war to fight facsism. You implication here is that its not human history but mans history and if i where i women id find that pretty demeaning.
As much as calling out fascists has to do with impacting the political views of non-fascists. There’s an Explain Like I’m Five sub somewhere you could post this question to.
If you don’t want to be insulted you should avoid entering conversations by parroting the views of rapists.
Again attacking the person is not good faith discussion i refuse to engage in bad faith insults.
No, it’s not “men’s” fault, but the people who’s fault it is are primarily men. That’s not an opinion, that’s just history, not to mention what’s happening before our eyes. Even women who are fascist push patriarchy. There is no point in debating whether fascism is primarily a male driven phenomenon. The only legitimate question is why?
This is insulting as fuck. I grew up as a boy with plenty of reactionary beliefs because patriarchy is a fucking prison. And as I got older and got called out for it, you know what I didn’t do? Become a fucking fascist. I wasn’t pushed towards fascism. I was already reactionary and fascism would have required less work of me. That’s not the same thing. And it lets people off the hook to suggest otherwise.
Ok so ur smart enough not to be a fascist congratulations for achieving the bare minimum. Do u think most people are bright enough to go “ohhh yeah fascism is my fault because of the gender i was born i shall apologise for my genders ancestors actions” or do they go “no fuck you and fuck everything you stand for”?
Did someone ask all men to apologize for something?
ohhh yeah fascism is my fault
I mean if the shoe fits
because of the gender i was born
it’s this aggrieved “wah poor me for being born a man” shit that makes people disregard your bullshit in the first place. whatever happened to masculinity being defined by setting your jaw, gritting your teeth, and fixing your own fuckeries before they could adversely harm your surroundings?
i shall apologise for my genders ancestors actions
literally the bare fucking minimum a cracker could do and you phrase it like it’s an impossible fucking pipe dream. and you wonder why people disregard and avoid bullshit peddlers like you.
christ, our species is cooked if you’re an example of the kind of man the future has to look forward to
How is it insulting? I didn’t say it was you. Fascism is a social phenomenon driven almost entirely by men. That doesn’t mean all men are fascists, or that there is something wrong with masculinity. It’s about certain men in certain situations reacting in what is an entirely predictable way. It is perhaps an insult to fascist men, but I’m comfortable insulting them.
I wasn’t insulted by what you said and I’m not a man
and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
Such profound concern trolling wisdom from the wisest of all Star Wars characters!
Who’s the alien they’re pointing to?
Glup Shitto, who else?
spoiler
Real answer is some extra with a silly Star Wars name that I don’t even know.
Fascism is Capitalism in decline. Masculinity is a recognized part of fascism, but fascism is rooted in Capitalist decay, not in moral failures of men.
Fascism is capitalism when the capitalist class gets too successful, as soon as the capitalists realize they can establish fascism they always do.
Not quite. Fascism occurs when disparity rises, the petite bourgeoisie are being proletarianized, and collaborates with the bourgeoisie against rising class awareness and leftism among the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat. It isn’t a symptom of success, but a defense mechanism.
Yet capitalism “failing” somehow consistently happens in every capitalist economy, at this point its basically a feature of capitalism.
Yes. Capitalism is unsustainable, and naturally trends towards disparity and Imperialism.
Yet what I find extremely intriguing is that the capitalist class profits immensely when capitalism decays and therefore actively contributes towards its downfall. Therefore in a sence fascism is when the capitalist class is too successful and when nobody pushes back against their decay and corruption.
Women live in the same declining capitalistic society as men, yet they are far more resistant to fascism. That’s not to say there is something wrong with men or masculinity. Society puts different pressures on men and women so they react differently.
Masculinity by your argument is also rooted in the development of vaccines, all of the aspects of technological progress, and also all progressive social movements that have resulted in more equitable distribution of political power, ie voting rights act, giving women the vote, etc.
I mean, if history lessons in Italy taught me anything, the ‘super uomo D’Annunziano’, “D’annunzio” and the original italian ‘fascism’ are pretty much linked.
