What was animal gender ?
huh?
Now let’s have a control group with no supplements
Yes, please. I’d love to see that.
A control group on the juice would also be helpful.
There was no control group doing the workouts without protein supplements?
There are already plenty of studies comparing results as a function of protein quantity.
You would still want it as a baseline comparison for the experimental groups.
What would you gain from that? We care about the difference between two interventions. We’re not looking to determine whether an intervention has an effect or not.
Well the plant guys
So when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary, instead of changing your worldview you just reject reality? Most people grow out of that by age 3, but you do you.
These science dudes just want the tasty meats for themselfs
They are getting 9x times the lead according to a recent study… Which is horrifying. Not sure why it needs to have lead at all.
Plants have lead. So do animals, though apparently they can filter it a bit better.
But like we don’t have the ability to filter it or purify it? I mean product before consumption, not in our bodies.
I’m assuming companies just skip it either out of a lack of knowledge, or to save money. I’m basing this on the fact that some brands have less lead than others. But this is just me making an assumption.
Complete tangent, but I am always curious who downvotes these threads? Like there isn’t even anything controversial, did we piss off a supplement manufacturer or something?
It doesn’t look like they had a control group of people doing the strength training without any protein supplement. I would assume that group would also perform the same.
My assumption is the non-supplement group would actually perform better. Actual food has tons of other nutrients the body uses for countless other tasks that are directly and indirectly related to muscle building
Typically protein supplements are in addition to regular food not a meal replacement when trying to build muscle.
Typically studies equate protein intake
Depends what they eat.
The study participants were given protein supplements, not a dietary replacement.
Correct, and my assumption is they would perform even better if they were given that protein from food rather than from supplements
Notably, they would need to do that, otherwise the study would just be comparing higher/lower protein intake and not protein sources
That’s not what you said above, you said you thought a group with a regular diet would perform better than a group with a regular diet + protein supplements, which is why you’re getting argued with.
which is why you’re getting argued with
What an interesting way of phrasing why you personally felt the need to make it into an argument rather than simply a discussion of a point that may need clarification.
Also interesting that “what I said” is totally different from your summary. I stand by what I said. I don’t know why anyone would assume the researches comparing protein sources in this hypothetical would bafflingly allow the control group to consume less protein. Regardless, now that the clarification has been provided, do you have any interest in the topic? Or are you just in an arguing mood today?
Except for the fact that we still can’t get plant protein at the cost taste and amount.We need. So i’m stuck with way, and we’re stuck with stories about buo protein i can’t get to enjoy. Like lab burgers
Not to mention all the heavy metals that plants extract to grow and then we concentrate that in one place means that the lead concentration is out of safe daily levels for most servings of plant protein…
Looking at healthline.com (I don’t know if they’re actually reputable, but we’re just looking at servings and prices, so why not) we see the pea protein powders cost between $0.47-$2.84 per 28 grams (which is about one serving for the 3 powders I looked at) and whey protein powders cost between $0.78-$7.27 per serving.
One of the websites they link sells both a protein and whey option, both at the same price. I’m not sure that cost is really a factor for deciding between the two.
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I get my whey at 80cents a scoop. It’s 150kcal/32grams protein. It tastes great.
I want cost, taste, kcal/protein.
I’ve come across plenty that compromise on taste, kcal/protein.
OK that does not mean that much though because the sample group is way too small to draw some real hard science out of it.
Saying that as a plant protein lover.
What? The sample group is not way too small lol. It is fine.
On top of that, there are already many other such studies on gym goers, comparing whey with vegan options, such as pea and soy protein. Those studies show that vegan options are as good as whey.
You can’t measure anything with a high level of confidence with 40 people. Typical health studies have hundreds to thousands of participants. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10000262/
Just to be clear, this is about supplements. It’s doesn’t say anything about differences in dietary protein.
The actual title:
Similar effects between animal-based and plant-based protein blend as complementary dietary protein on muscle adaptations to resistance training: findings from a randomized clinical trial
What relevance does that have? Plenty of studies in the past have already demonstrated dietary plant protein is just as good for you as animal protein.
The full article is linked right here in the post. It reviews the background of why they’re studying this
What relevance does that have?
Well, exposing the click bait in the title and providing context about the actual study involved is relevant because …it exposes the click bait in the title and provides context about the actual study involved.
Plenty of studies in the past have already demonstrated dietary plant protein is just as good for you as animal protein.
This is not relevant to the context of the article, and like the vegan at a party, it’s good information but not part of the discussion about protein supplements during strength training except as an adjacent fact about diet and not about strength training directly nor supplements.
Huh? It’s what the research is about.
Because meat lovers.
Edited the title to clarify
What was the original title, just to make some of the comments make sense? I can’t seem to find a way to lookup the history
I don’t understand the distinction you’re making.
Unless the study controlled for the subjects’ regular diet and non supplement protein, its conclusions don’t mean much.
For example, if I get 100+g of protein on a typical day then, a 19g protein bar is a nice addition, but it’s in the minority compared to the rest of my protein sources.
this is about supplements
And supplements are largely unnecessary, so this study says absolutely bupkis.
Right, for the average person, protein supplements are unnecessary as long as they are healthy and eat well.
Athletes (and people with body dysmorphia 😬) might struggle to get enough protein in their diet. But, far too many people think they’re in a position that would warrant supplements when just a little attention to diet is sufficient.
Were these subjects athletes or were they just people who were weight training?
Doesn’t matter. The point of the research was to determine if there was a difference between animal and plant based protein supplements for adding muscle. The results would apply to anyone.
And if neither has much effect, the study is pointless.
I hope there was a control group who had a placebo supplement.
That’s not how science works. You do experiments even to find out if it is pointless.
But, yes, they should have a control group.
So the research was pointless because we can’t tell the difference without a control group. Further research needed.
beef cake. beef cake.
There are many other reasons to take protein supplements. High protein foods can be expensive (protein can be too but there are many options). It’s also a quick add to a meal vs prepping an entire meal.
You don’t need to be an athlete to workout 5 days a week and if you want to visually see some of the results protein supplements help. It can also help with recovery whether you’re strength, training or training your body in any other way. You don’t have to be an athlete to want to be physically fit. Protein can help.
Which one is cheaper?
Can’t speak for this specific blend sourcing they used in this study, but soy protein is usually cheaper in much of the world. It’s why most protein bars use soy protein isolate
Makes sense
Was gonna comment this. More people need to know about this
How many people are having issues with lead?
Now how about cholesterol? Which only comes from animal products.
Hint: cholesterol kills millions of people every year.
Seems like you only care about something if it fits into your bias.
Last time I looked into plant based. Like pea and rice protein. It was expensive af. Like double the price of whey per pound. Don’t know about soy pricing.
Both of those (pea and rice) are just starchy AF before processing. My best guess is that isolating pea/rice protein is a real bitch to pull off since most of it isn’t protein to begin with. Soy should be cheaper but that might be changing here real soon…
Idk about protien, but vegan food is typically 30% cheaper than the standard American diet.
i doubt this is true.
The global and regional costs of healthy and sustainable dietary patterns: a modelling study
By Marco Springmann, PhD; Michael A Clark, PhD; Prof Mike Rayner, PhD; Peter Scarborough, PhD; Prof Patrick Webb, PhD
November 24, 2021
…Findings
Compared with the cost of current diets, the healthy and sustainable dietary patterns were, depending on the pattern, up to 22–34% lower in cost in upper-middle-income to high-income countries on average (when considering statistical means), but at least 18–29% more expensive in lower-middle-income to low-income countries. Reductions in food waste, a favourable socioeconomic development scenario, and a fuller cost accounting that included the diet-related costs of climate change and health care in the cost of diets increased the affordability of the dietary patterns in our future projections. When these measures were combined, the healthy and sustainable dietary patterns were up to 25–29% lower in cost in low-income to lower-middle-income countries, and up to 37% lower in cost on average, for the year 2050. Variants of vegetarian and vegan dietary patterns were generally most affordable, and pescatarian diets were least affordable.
…
In high-income and upper-middle-income countries, all dietary patterns, except for the high-veg pescatarian diets, were less expensive, with greatest cost reductions for the high-grain vegetarian and vegan diets (cost reductions of 22–34% across the two regions), followed by the high-veg vegetarian and vegan diets (17–27%), the flexitarian diets (12–14%), and the high-grain pescatarian diets (1–3% in each region). InSource: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext
they do not explicitly include food from home production or differentiate subgroups within a population.
this also seriously considered poore-nemecek 2018 as a source uncritically.
and they assume everyone is paying full retail price for food, where most poor people actually receive some kind of subsidized or free food.
the model diet they used is not vegan, but flexitarian.
this is not very good evidence you’ve presented, so I still doubt the claim is true
There’s plenty of other factors that need to be considered. There will be significant differences in iron levels, b12, calcium, vitamin d, etc.
If you’re vegetarian/vegan, you absolutely need to monitor multiple other levels and take the appropriate supplements. Pretending otherwise is really dangerous.
Studies show 92% of meat eaters are nutrient deficient in at least one vitamin or mineral.
The rate for vegans is 30%
Worry about yourself.
You can get all of that just fine on a veg diet without artificial supplementation. Just eat a fucking vegetable dude.
Not b12. Vegans have to supplement with b12.
Vegan sources of vitamin B12 include fortified plant-based milks, fortified cereals, nutritional yeast, and certain types of algae, several types of mushrooms, most meat and dairy replacements are fortified with b12.
And a single energy drink contains 5x or more the daily dose of b12.
So you could buy a bunch of processed crap with vitamins in it and hope you get enough.
…Or you could just take the vitamins.
I recommended just taking vegan b12 every day. It’s a requirement and very small sacrifice to make for living a better life without having to consume animal parts
Mushrooms and nutritional yeast.
Please don’t spread misinformation. That’s a path to someone developing neurological disease.
What misinformation?
Plenty of swole guys are vegetarian. Not Vegan. The difference is vegetarians don’t tell everyone.
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The study itself makes none of the claims you’re rallying against.
It looks like the OP started with a title that was misleading and it has been corrected so now your post looks out of place.
More research isn’t a bad thing, but this really isn’t news. If you’re a nerd who’s into lifting you’d already know that soy protein is a top tier source of all the important amino acids for muscle gain. And it’s cheaper than whey.
It’s also not very popular because the manosphere tells men that consuming it will feminize them. Yes, really. They took the “soy boy” thing very literally and ran with it off the deep end.
That’s fine.
I’m a 40 year-old man and I’ll still post up next to a group of these Gen-Z pansies and put up 300 pounds on the bench with my gnarled, old man physique.
Oh my god, everyone look at how tough this tough guy is!
How to tell someone you’re jealous without saying it out loud. Cheers, friend.
Jealous of what exactly? Lol. Edit: Hahaha, holy fuck guys, read this guy’s bio if you want a good laugh.
My bad dude, I thought you were serious. Poes law in action.
Oh I know right bro, right? Bro?
Last time I checked what’s available on my grocery store shelf, the whey protein was still the cheapest by unit.
I get my protein from Canadian protein dot com. The vegan protein is the same price as the whey concentrate and a little cheaper than the whey isolate.
I’ve never gotten it before mostly because I’m a creature of habit but might get some to try the next time I order because the dairy has not been sitting well with my stomach lately.
It appears to be mostly pea, brown rice and hemp.
I don’t know if this is a problem specific to Canadian Protein’s vegan protein, but the one time I tried it, it had the kind of grittiness that sent me into a coughing fit on each sip. Completely undrinkable. It also had this awful flavour evocative of wet cardboard, which they assured me was normal.
I’ve had other kinds in the past. They’ve ranged from really gross stevia taste to what I would describe as pancake batter.
Protein powders have always been so hit and miss though im not sure it’s related to them being vegan.
Where I live grocery stores are a terrible example, all the plant proteins are jacked up in price with marketing about how it’s organic and vegan and will cure cancer yada yada. And then the wheys they sell are blends with low actual protein content and/or poor aminos.
I buy my protein from a bulk supplements supplier, and soy is 75% of the cost of the cheapest whey, gram for gram of actual protein content.
I recently decided to restart my routine after 8+ years of dickin’ around and this is blowing my mind right now. What else has changed? Is creatine and NO2 still a thing?
Creatine is still very much a thing, but I think everyone actually knows what it is and what it does and it’s not treated as a magic bullet any more.
Mainly what seems to have changed is that steroids and TRT have exploded in popularity, and a scary number of under 18s are doing it.
Apart from that I couldn’t tell you, it’s all happening on Insta and TikTok now and I don’t participate.
I remember about a decade ago talking about tofu recipes with a colleague who lifted and ate a protein heavy diet.
An older colleague heard us and warned us that eating tofu would cause you to have a surplus of estrogen and make you more feminine.
He was telling this to a guy built like a brick shithouse who had eaten tons of soy protein for the better part of a decade.
It’s that same old thing, something different comes along and some people just have to parrot anything that goes against that thing, even if it’s complete and utter horseshit
Misogyny is a helluva drug
As a human survival trait we need to find a way to shut down misinformation. Knowledge is our path to survival as an animal. Like ants have teamwork and building, wildebeest have speed, plants photosynthesise, humans learn.
By creating and spreading misinformation you’re chipping away at pretty much the only thing that keeps us in existence.
Bit of a broad-strokes extreme takeaway from your comment there, but it got to me.
I just left a thread about analog clocks being removed from schools because the kids can’t read them. The comments alone were quite telling on how many humans don’t want to learn much of anything anymore.
Do they forget that estrogen is also a steroid?
Yes, yes they do. Or, more accurately, they didn’t know that in the first place. These people are often just running on what are essentially old wives’ tales of things to be afraid of because it will hurt their masculinity or something.
Ugh I had an older colleague, a PhD organic chemist, who was absolutely convinced that soy would make me (m) infertile. I ordered tofu once when out to lunch and he would not stop warning me to “be careful” and to be mindful of starting a family and “you know those studies.” When I mentioned that the consensus was at best inconclusive and most likely there is no such link, he said that no, “they” definitely showed that excess soy is bad and that he worried about my reproductive health. Like dude even if eating tofu did cause reproductive health issues, mine is none of your goddamn business. On the other hand, the same guy is also convinced that BPA (another estrogen mimic used esp. in certain plastics) concerns are a total hoax because “they did bad science because their sample containers had BPA in them and it leached into the urine samples giving false positive.” Also something about the only evidence of it binding like estrogen was that someone glanced at a crystal structure and halfassedly thought it looked like it might fit and rolled with it for career reasons. Like, I don’t know, man, maybe a couple studies used containers made with BPA, but most probably didn’t. I haven’t read them, but I know you didn’t, either. Also, you’re literally a petrochemist, you know BPA is mostly used in polycarbonates, and lab plastics, especially for analytical work, are mostly polypropylene or polyethylene designed to avoid exactly this kind of leaching. Honestly.
I’m a nerd and into lifting, but I took a pause for oh very many years, so I’m currently still emptying my 2.something kilogram tub of Optimum Nutrition whey protein, which tastes decent enough. Do you have a recommendation on decent tasting soy protein, especially something available in Europe?
I pretty much look like a bear so it’s going to be very difficult to feminize me lol
Meat and dairy contains hormones that increase estrogen and reduce testosterone, not plants.
also your plastic bottles, and people dump so much birth control into the water system too.
Microplastics is a hard one to study, I think it does have a detrimental effect on testosterone though.
That may be, I was just saying I’m not particularly concerned about it anyway.
Yeah I know, that’s why T levels in the USA has dropped by 20% in the last 20 years and obesity is rapidly increasing.
Pretty sure obesity is increasing because people are sedentary and eat like shit.
Testosterone is known to go down in obese people so I think you have your cause and effect reversed there.
obesity, the fat produces eostrogen compounds, thats why it also reduces pregnancy chances too,.
People continue parroting this soy estrogen myth even years after it’s been debunked too, it’s annoying as hell. The phytoestrogen in question is more of an anti-estrogen and may be protective against excess estrogen.
If soy actually caused boob growth, the supplement industry would be all over that.
bigger issue with these powders and shit (least in the US) is that damn near non-existent food/drug safety oversight means that your probably getting dosed with a bunch of lead or some other contaminate…
It does have some protoestrogens but to me that is a positive because I want to look fem. Most men have low estrogen and it makes them uglier and psychotic. The only time estrogen really feminizes you beyond giving you a better body shape and slightly healthier skin and stuff, is when you are taking a high amount of it.
Most men have too low of estrogen and this causes mental issues, depression, it gives them a lot of fat around their stomach while being lanky everywhere else. It causes all kinds of weird little issues.
Shit man, I think I need to hop on this soy boy train myself!
It’s fitting too because I’ve been taking in a little extra protein and putting on some muscle for the past few months due to some hobby stuff that led to construction projects, lol.
Yeah don’t fear the estrogen. Most men could use a bit more of it.
Perhaps you mean phytoestrogen? Another commenter suggested that the applicable phytoestrogen found in soy may actually be protective against excess estrogen.
Idk I’m not a scientist
I get that. But you are making a number of statements/claims about the effects of estrogen on men, so at the very least it would help your credibility to get the word right. Hell, when I tried Googling “protoestrogen”, the Google AI said it wasn’t a word in any kind of normal use but was in a 1998 paper about the possible origins of estrogen.
Yeah sorry
Study does not say anything about the diet of the subjects. This would make more sense if it was 22 vegan men with plant-protein supplement and 22 carnivore diet men with animal-protein supplement and a control of typical diet with no supplement.
Even better is if they controlled for total protein intake, since we know that to be an important factor in muscle growth.
Hard, since basically everything has protein in it
There are a lot of upvotes here. Why would this make more sense?
Agreed, this is a dumb comment that has no relation to the study being done, only some study they imagined in their mind.
People love to second guess scientific studies like they’re set up by complete fucking morons with no review or oversight. Truly their 10 seconds of amateur brilliance is going to see the trivial flaw no one among the team of people doing this as their actual job noticed. If something sounds obviously wrong in a science article, the source of that wrongness is almost certainly either the author of the article or you.
The author changed the title and the original seems to be what a lot of these comments are rallying against:
Making a comment about a supposed scientific error from post title alone is even stupider.
This would make more sense if it was 22 vegan men with plant-protein supplement and 22 carnivore diet men with animal-protein supplement and a control of typical diet with no supple
I read the “this” as the study too. I think the “this” is referring to the title so the comment is explaining how the title is an overreach and describing what sort of study you would need to justify a title like whatever overreach was made.
I’m guessing though
I think “this” refers to the posts original title, which was updated after some pushback from comments so now the comment I was replying to is a bit out of place
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Also FYI: if you are getting enough calories, you are almost certainly also getting enough protein. The RDA for protein is quite low, 0.8g per kg bodyweight, or about 10% of your caloric intake. You can meet this by eating just grains. However, as mentioned in the linked source, the RDA is intended to prevent nutrient deficiencies, not provide an optimal level of intake.
To gain muscle you should be eating 1-1.4 grams of protein bet lb of bodyweight
iirc 1.5g per kg of body mass is enough above that you get diminishing returns fast
The mix of metric and fantasy units is quite infuriating
Ah nooo converting units is so difficult for my widdle iddy biddy brain pwease stawwp im gonna pooooo
no. it’s just annoying that weirdos think that using an antiquated unit system on an international medium is fine.
Fucking americans with their fucking american world centrism
Let’s not get aggressive about it. The world knows that Americans have one of the least effective systems and are often viewed as inferior
please censor this kind of language, am*ricans
Oh wow I finally get to meet the Main Character of the Universe! Can I have your autograph?
sure, please post your address
P. Sherman 42 Wallaby Way Sydney, Australia
On the face of it, yeah. But since we are talking about a ratio of nutrient to body weight, there’s no inherent benefit besides ideological purity to using the same units for both sides of the ratio.
In the states, nutritional info is universally listed in grams, and bodyweight is most commonly measured in pounds, so in that context g/lb is a perfectly logical way to describe recommended intake levels.
To an American, yes.
…as I explicitly stated in my comment?
That’s a rather excessive amount unless you mean g protein/kg instead of g protein / lbs
People who exercise regularly also have higher needs, about 1.1-1.5 grams per kilogram. People who regularly lift weights or are training for a running or cycling event need 1.2-1.7 grams per kilogram. Excessive protein intake would be more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight each day.
2g / kg = ~0.9g /lbs for reference
Yah but counterpoint: the current male obsession with protein and muscle gains is a bit of a commercialized farce. There are easier and more effective ways to make girls want to be with you.
edit: If you actually work out for yourself and your own goals, I don’t get how you would feel offended at this. Either you’re doing it for yourself and nothing anyone says matters, or your identity is tied up in a specific image and comments like mine (which is DELIBERATELY provocative you dunces) will make you feel attacked.
There are easier and more effective ways to make girls want to be with you.
This is indeed one of the main reasons people start, but it quickly switches over to working out for yourself. So while what you say is true, I don’t agree with messages of this nature because it takes away one of the strongest motivators for a lot of people to better themselves.
I’ve literally never had a serious partner tell me that me lifting was a reason they wanted to be with me, period. To me this just sounds like a bizarre fanfic scenario you read.
Going to the gym for an hour a few days a week and running a few miles on off days isn’t an “obsession”, it’s just general fitness. I get one go around this rock and one body to do it with. Being fit makes the experience much better, and makes ME feel good about my body and the progress I’ve made, damned be anyone else’s opinion.
Radical concept, but not everyone in the gym is a roided out manosphere moron trying to slay pussy because of brainwashing.
Everything about your comment would have been excellent, but by adding this:
To me this just sounds like a bizarre fanfic scenario you read.
That makes you come across as breathlessly offended and makes it all seem like defensiveness for being called out. Learn how to communicate as well as how to lift. The fact that you know the manosphere language while denying it’s a social trend that many people follow is also not lost on me.
Are you the kind of person I’m talking to/about? No? THEN CALM THE FUCK DOWN AND GO DO SOMETHING ELSE.
King, it is okay. Take a breath. No one here is attacking anyone, just dispelling potentially harmful opinions. I know for a lot of people getting into fitness and going to the gym is intimidating, but it doesn’t have to be. I’ve had quite a few women and LGBT tell me that they read comments like yours online and don’t want to try working out, because they think everyone in the gym is Joe Rogan or Andrew Tate, and that they will be mocked or hurt. This is just not even close to reality.
Most people are just there for the love of the game or for the gains, that’s it. No one who takes their fitness seriously thinks it is just an easy way to trick women, I promise you.
Fitness is for everyone and should be made more accessible, not more intimidating or off-putting, its great and improves your life. There are plenty of people like me in the gym that would readily and happily help others at the drop of a hat, no strings attached.
100%. I don’t work out at the gym, but if there is one thing we don’t need in the world, it would be people gatekeeping others on exercise.
Actually we do it for ourselves and to look cute for each other. Wait… uh-oh.
Found the obese American.
Nobody said that was the reason.
But we all know it often is.
I think people who had that reason are the set of people who go for a few weeks in January and then stop lifting.
The ones who lift long term do it for themselves
Yeah but not everyone has the money
Where do you live where peanut butter and jugs of water are expensive?
I don’t care if girls want to be with me. I want to be as stronger than I was last week. It’s something in my life I can work towards that I actually have control over.
That sounds…unsustainable.
I’ll worry about that when I get there.
Just checking in, you good?
No but I’m strong 💪
Some people work out to build muscle, not to make women like them. For that, eating lots of (plant based) protein helps
Not rice, surely?
Rice does come up a bit short by my calculations, if you are just meeting your caloric intake needs. Oats provide more than enough, though.
Yes. You don’t need to exceed protein requirements to be healthy.
You do need to exceed protein requirements if you’re trying to build muscle as fast as possible, which is what this article is about
Amino acids are amino acids. Some are harder to get from plants than others.
I wish more people understood that EVERYTHING is chemistry.
Well, except for nuclear physics…
And all of chemistry is just physics.
What about consciousness?
Truly the strangest epiphenomenon we’re all aware of
Or is it an epiphenomenon… No one can tell IMO.
You’re certainly not wrong! To me, it seems that consciousness is just what it is to be the kind of machines that we are, and also why sentience/consciousness is so impossible for the sort of synthetic 'AI’s we have that currently exist. But how could we ever really tell? Hard to know what evidence would ever be convincing either way!
Exactly!
Is self awareness of information processing and filtering.
Even love?
No, watt is love, so love is energy over time, not chemistry.
No, Shrek is love, Shrek is life.
Of course! Even love! Just mix a dash of dopamine, a sprinkle of serotonin, a shot of oxytocin, and a hint of norepinephrine. Shake well in a nervous system, serve warm, and call it love!
Would you like a side of pheromones with that?
Especially group sex
with 44 men, so an orgy.
That’s gay.
Gay chemistry!
Homosexual alchemy
